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Vancouver scout: Latendresse ahead of Bertuzzi at 20

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Old
03-20-2008, 10:07 AM
  #26
Mats NAslund
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The real big difference between the two is their skating. If Latendresse can improve his skating he will be a force. The will to drive to the net with force and speed will make a power forward. He's very good in the corners and along the boards and has a very decent shot. Skating is the only thing holding him back.....

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03-20-2008, 10:11 AM
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Good reading, I guess, my eyes glazed over after a while reading this PhD thesis. All that's missing is an analysis of Tender Willie's favorite flavour of milkshake, ability to parallel park and TV viewing habits.

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03-20-2008, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
how many of them scored 16 goals in the NHL at the age of 19 and 20 ? None other than Sergei perhaps, so I guess that makes him ahead of those guys
None of them were in the NHL at 19 because they were in the AHL developping and becoming significantly better overall players.

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03-20-2008, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Megaforce View Post
Good reading, I guess, my eyes glazed over after a while reading this PhD thesis. All that's missing is an analysis of Tender Willie's favorite flavour of milkshake, ability to parallel park and TV viewing habits.
I must admit, I stopped reading at about the 30th paragraph.

I do remember that Latendresse penalty shot though. I was at the game. Montreal was getting blown out in Ottawa.

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03-20-2008, 10:20 AM
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Good reading, I guess, my eyes glazed over after a while reading this PhD thesis. All that's missing is an analysis of Tender Willie's favorite flavour of milkshake, ability to parallel park and TV viewing habits.
You obviously missed the 2nd page.

That would be: Strawberry, adequate, and reruns of Who's the Boss and Full House*.





he'a big Dave Coulier fan.

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03-20-2008, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
None of them were in the NHL at 19 because they were in the AHL developping and becoming significantly better overall players.
did any of them give the team a good reason to keep them at that age ? Before going to Hamilton you have a shot to make the Habs' team, yet none of them convinced the team to keep them.

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03-20-2008, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Talent Analyst View Post
He can be ahead, but he has to be faster.
Why do people think Latendresse has to get faster? Guys like Leclair Bertuzzi Shanahan Kerr P.Esposito Neely were never confused for speedsters and they scored a ton of goals. Lats scores goals by having good hands, getting the puck on net and using his size to get in close, all things that are unrelated to speed. He'll never be the guy to carry the puck on the rush.

I think he can improve another 10-15% to get to average NHL speed, but this is not nor will it ever be his bread and butter. The 2 things he needs is 1-to be a bit more consistant in finishing his checks and going hard to the net 2 for Carbo to give him more playing time. He won't score 30 goals playing 3rd or 4th line and getting 10 minutes a game.

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03-20-2008, 10:28 AM
  #33
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did any of them give the team a good reason to keep them at that age ? Before going to Hamilton you have a shot to make the Habs' team, yet none of them convinced the team to keep them.
I agree, Latendresse deserved to make the team out of camp. But he definately did not deserve to stay there after his first dozen or so games. Unfortunately, they couldn't send him to the AHL and juniors was not really an option either.

But this season? What has Latendresse done to deserve staying up this year? What has he shown ahead of, say, Chipchura or Lapierre, who both had time down in the minors?

You know, just because he had a good rookie year, it doesn't mean he can't benefit from time in the minors. It isn't an insult to him to say he could use some seasoning in Hamilton. Do you really think he's benefitting from <10 minutes a night in a pseudo checking role and almost no time in the third period? When he could be playing 20-23 minutes a night in a scoring role, which ideally is what we want from him?

And don't say he's here to work on his overall game...That's what Andrei Kostitsyn was in the minors for all those years.

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03-20-2008, 10:30 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I agree, Latendresse deserved to make the team out of camp. But he definately did not deserve to stay there after his first dozen or so games. Unfortunately, they couldn't send him to the AHL and juniors was not really an option either.

But this season? What has Latendresse done to deserve staying up this year? What has he shown ahead of, say, Chipchura or Lapierre, who both had time down in the minors?

You know, just because he had a good rookie year, it doesn't mean he can't benefit from time in the minors. It isn't an insult to him to say he could use some seasoning in Hamilton. Do you really think he's benefitting from <10 minutes a night in a pseudo checking role and almost no time in the third period? When he could be playing 20-23 minutes a night in a scoring role, which ideally is what we want from him?

And don't say he's here to work on his overall game...That's what Andrei Kostitsyn was in the minors for all those years.
what he has done is score 16 goals and almost all of those goals were scored on 5-5 which makes him the Canadiens player with most or 2nd most goals on 5-5 play. Why he doesn't play more is beyond me, that you should ask Carbonneau.

16 goals is just as good if not better than Koivu, Ryder and Higgins whom all get plenty of power play time

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03-20-2008, 10:32 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
did any of them give the team a good reason to keep them at that age ? Before going to Hamilton you have a shot to make the Habs' team, yet none of them convinced the team to keep them.
Everyone should recognize by now that the Lats who was at training camp 2 years ago is not the same player we've been seeing in NHL games over the past 2 seasons. He was a big young player hitting everything that moved on a team desperate for size upfront.

Did the DiMaio hit have that much of impact on him? Is he aware of his skating limitations and is unwilling to go out of position? Was he just playing that style to make the team?

Who knows the answer, but the fact remains that the guy who hit everything that moved in training camp is rarely seen in the NHL. In other words, in camp he gave the team a reason to keep him on his rookie year, but too often he's given the team a reason to send him down, if only to help him understand the game but more importantly understand himself and what kind of player he wants to be at the NHL level.

He has the talent to be an excellent PF, but he has to work at it and decide to be one. Or he needs to work at the big but skilled type of guy. Either way, if he stays inbetween he may end up being another Brad Isbister. Okay that's overly harsh, but you know what I mean, he may end up not reaching his potential if he's not given the chance to discover what type of player he is and wants to be.

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03-20-2008, 10:33 AM
  #36
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Pretty good blog overall about yhe Habs history, etc...

It's hard to embrace's Lats' style because it's so unorthodox, even when he scores goals. It's easier to like a guy like Begin on the ice because it's so simple and not complicted crash and bang north-south. And as fans like anything we prefer what we understand right away like fast-food entertainment.

I think it require patience and if Lats has to become a well-rounded player I could see worst as example to be under the tutelage of Carbo, Gainey and Muller, three guys that were so great at the basics.

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03-20-2008, 10:33 AM
  #37
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Why does everyone compare him to Bertuzzi all the time?

He's nothing like Bertuzzi apart from size (Bert is bigger anyways). His attitude is completely different. He'll never be as physically dominant as Bertuzzi was back when he was good. Which leads to my next point. Bertuzzi ****ing blows. He had a few mediocre seasons and 2 really amazing ones back when Markus Naslund was considered an elite player. I'm sure his incident probably ruined his career but he isn't as good as people pretend he is.

Anyways, so what's the deal then? Are we supposed to wait 5 more years before Latendresse becomes any good? I mean, is he just going to stay on the 3rd line for the next half decade before he finally blooms? Cause I dunno...A player who we are supposed to "be patient with"...Someone who is supposed to get better with time...Sounds like DEVELOPMENT to me. Call me crazy but I always thought the AHL was the #1 development league for young NHL players. It has produced some pretty awesome Habs players, like Higgins, Plekanec, Billy and Jimmy Kostitsyn, Komisarek, Price, Halak, O'Byrne, Lapierre, Grabovski and more. But I guess Latendresse is too good for the AHL, since he's so far ahead of these guys since they were in the AHL.



We should sign Markus Nalsund this summer.
Are you serious?

Wait 5 more years until he is any good?? He's already pretty good, he'll score close to 20 with mostly 3rd and 4th line ice time at 20 years old. Plus he provides something that no other young forwards bring, he dominates down low with his size and strength. Even A.Kost who is big and strong can't compare to Lats within 30 feet of the net for size, strength and leverage. He'd have 25 goals if he had Higgins A.Kost or S.Kost's ice time from this year.

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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I agree, Latendresse deserved to make the team out of camp. But he definately did not deserve to stay there after his first dozen or so games. Unfortunately, they couldn't send him to the AHL and juniors was not really an option either.

But this season? What has Latendresse done to deserve staying up this year? What has he shown ahead of, say, Chipchura or Lapierre, who both had time down in the minors?

You know, just because he had a good rookie year, it doesn't mean he can't benefit from time in the minors. It isn't an insult to him to say he could use some seasoning in Hamilton. Do you really think he's benefitting from <10 minutes a night in a pseudo checking role and almost no time in the third period? When he could be playing 20-23 minutes a night in a scoring role, which ideally is what we want from him?

And don't say he's here to work on his overall game...That's what Andrei Kostitsyn was in the minors for all those years.
Andrei Kostitsyn was in the minors to learn the language, culture and different style of game. You're comparing apples to oranges.


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Old
03-20-2008, 10:36 AM
  #38
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16 during the year. Perhaps they thought he could help the team and he did.
Yea but they had decided to keep him even before he scored the 16 goals of last year.

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03-20-2008, 10:37 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Quiet Robert View Post
Everyone should recognize by now that the Lats who was at training camp 2 years ago is not the same player we've been seeing in NHL games over the past 2 seasons. He was a big young player hitting everything that moved on a team desperate for size upfront.

Did the DiMaio hit have that much of impact on him? Is he aware of his skating limitations and is unwilling to go out of position? Was he just playing that style to make the team?

Who knows the answer, but the fact remains that the guy who hit everything that moved in training camp is rarely seen in the NHL. In other words, in camp he gave the team a reason to keep him on his rookie year, but too often he's given the team a reason to send him down, if only to help him understand the game but more importantly understand himself and what kind of player he wants to be at the NHL level.

He has the talent to be an excellent PF, but he has to work at it and decide to be one. Or he needs to work at the big but skilled type of guy. Either way, if he stays inbetween he may end up being another Brad Isbister. Okay that's overly harsh, but you know what I mean, he may end up not reaching his potential if he's not given the chance to discover what type of player he is and wants to be.
Lantedresse has 2nd or 3rd most hits on the Canadiens' team and he plays 10 minutes a game. On top of that he scores 16 goals and plays on the 4th line while higgins has barely any more goals and doesn't hit at all, same for Ryder or A. Kostitsyn who has 22 some goals and plays on a line with Kovalev and Plekanec.

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03-20-2008, 10:40 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I agree, Latendresse deserved to make the team out of camp. But he definately did not deserve to stay there after his first dozen or so games. Unfortunately, they couldn't send him to the AHL and juniors was not really an option either.

But this season? What has Latendresse done to deserve staying up this year? What has he shown ahead of, say, Chipchura or Lapierre, who both had time down in the minors?

You know, just because he had a good rookie year, it doesn't mean he can't benefit from time in the minors. It isn't an insult to him to say he could use some seasoning in Hamilton. Do you really think he's benefitting from <10 minutes a night in a pseudo checking role and almost no time in the third period? When he could be playing 20-23 minutes a night in a scoring role, which ideally is what we want from him?

And don't say he's here to work on his overall game...That's what Andrei Kostitsyn was in the minors for all those years.
I sort of agree with this. They should have sent him down and let him be the top dog at Hamilton, let him have all the ice that he could, 23 or more per game. Let him lose that fat, and try him in every situations possible.

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03-20-2008, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Quiet Robert View Post
Everyone should recognize by now that the Lats who was at training camp 2 years ago is not the same player we've been seeing in NHL games over the past 2 seasons. He was a big young player hitting everything that moved on a team desperate for size upfront.

Did the DiMaio hit have that much of impact on him? Is he aware of his skating limitations and is unwilling to go out of position? Was he just playing that style to make the team?

Who knows the answer, but the fact remains that the guy who hit everything that moved in training camp is rarely seen in the NHL. In other words, in camp he gave the team a reason to keep him on his rookie year, but too often he's given the team a reason to send him down, if only to help him understand the game but more importantly understand himself and what kind of player he wants to be at the NHL level.

He has the talent to be an excellent PF, but he has to work at it and decide to be one. Or he needs to work at the big but skilled type of guy. Either way, if he stays inbetween he may end up being another Brad Isbister. Okay that's overly harsh, but you know what I mean, he may end up not reaching his potential if he's not given the chance to discover what type of player he is and wants to be.
Lats is still playing the same game he did at camp 1 1/2 years ago. You have to realise that the calibre of play in regular NHL games is higher than preseason where vets just try and get in shape and avoid injuries. Also it's ok to run around and get out of position in preseason, but I doubt doing it now would earn him anything else than a seat in the press box.

I find he is on the cusp of being a top 6 30 goal guy, he just needs the right linemates, guys that can carry the puck and get it to him in shooting areas and opportunity. Translate his goals per minute from 10-12 minutes a game to 18-20 minutes and you have a 30 goal scorer. I'm sure you'd get a fair bit more hits too because he'd be in the game more. He's already our hardest hitter and one with most hits up front.

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03-20-2008, 10:45 AM
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I agree, Latendresse deserved to make the team out of camp. But he definately did not deserve to stay there after his first dozen or so games. Unfortunately, they couldn't send him to the AHL and juniors was not really an option either.

But this season? What has Latendresse done to deserve staying up this year? What has he shown ahead of, say, Chipchura or Lapierre, who both had time down in the minors?

You know, just because he had a good rookie year, it doesn't mean he can't benefit from time in the minors. It isn't an insult to him to say he could use some seasoning in Hamilton. Do you really think he's benefitting from <10 minutes a night in a pseudo checking role and almost no time in the third period? When he could be playing 20-23 minutes a night in a scoring role, which ideally is what we want from him?

And don't say he's here to work on his overall game...That's what Andrei Kostitsyn was in the minors for all those years.
His production, given his icetime, is the reason why he deserved to stay up. I don't have the stats on hand, but he's 3rd or 4th on the team in terms of even strength goals and he doesn't see alot of even strength time. 14 of his 16 goals have been scored at even strength, that's 1 less even strength goals than Alex Kovalev

So he's doing something right, he's not hurting the team and has even improved, drastically I might add, on his +/- and his defensive play overall.

I don't see what people's beef is with Latendresse, I really dont

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03-20-2008, 10:46 AM
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None of them were in the NHL at 19 because they were in the AHL developping and becoming significantly better overall players.
Latendresse is filling a role that none of those players could have filled at that age. Give him time in the NHL and it'll pay off...I'm quite confident that Lats would dominate the AHL and wouldn't learn half as much as he will here. Once Lats figures out that he's hard as **** to move in front of the net, and starts driving it more often, he'll score 25-30. But given his ice-time and PP time, 16 goals this season is very ****ing good.

I'd certainly rather have Lats on the 3rd/4th line than any other of our 3/4th liners (lapierre, smokes, begin, dandenault, kostopolous).

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03-20-2008, 10:48 AM
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what he has done is score 16 goals and almost all of those goals were scored on 5-5 which makes him the Canadiens player with most or 2nd most goals on 5-5 play. Why he doesn't play more is beyond me, that you should ask Carbonneau.

16 goals is just as good if not better than Koivu, Ryder and Higgins whom all get plenty of power play time
You'd think such a superb 5 on 5 player would at least be even eh? Considering he gets no icetime too. Maybe it's just bad luck.

He doesn't play more because he's just not at that level. He can be effective when used correctly but the more icetime you give him, the more he'll get exposed. Especially against top players.

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Are you serious?

Wait 5 more years until he is any good?? He's already pretty good, he'll score close to 20 with mostly 3rd and 4th line ice time at 20 years old. Plus he provides something that no other young forwards bring, he dominates down low with his size and strength. Even A.Kost who is big and strong can't compare to Lats within 30 feet of the net for size, strength and leverage. He'd have 25 goals if he had Higgins A.Kost or S.Kost's ice time from this year.
The difference is that Higgins, A Kost and S Kost are not liabilies with big icetime. They can compete against other teams' top lines and not get completely exposed. They can handle the icetime they get.

If Latendresse had the icetime of those guys, he might have 25 goals...But he'd also be -20 or worse.

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Andrei Kostitsyn was in the minors to learn the language, culture and different style of game. You're comparing apples to oranges.
He was there to develop, just like virtually every other player that has ever made the NHL.

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03-20-2008, 10:49 AM
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Why are so many people bashing Latendresse or the way he was handled in this thread? What he has accomplished this year is nothing short of phenomenal in my opinion. Consider that he's 20, has 16 goals, and played the whole year with limited icetime, barely any PP time, and with subpar linemates on a 3rd line. I'd be curious to see a list of players with similar icetime to his and no PP time who have so many goals in the NHL, not to mention at such a young age. If in 2-3 years he gets an extended shot at producing on the PP and can't do better than his present production, then complaining will be in order, but at the moment he is exceeding expectations (you can't compare him to Lapierre and Chipchura who will struggle to score 15 goals once in their career).

So, please revisit this thread in a few years and then assess his development, but for the type of player he is and projects to be, he is doing just fine right now.

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03-20-2008, 10:50 AM
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I sort of agree with this. They should have sent him down and let him be the top dog at Hamilton, let him have all the ice that he could, 23 or more per game. Let him lose that fat, and try him in every situations possible.
You're assuming he could learn more from being a 'top dog' in Hamilton, instead of just playing a role on the 3rd/4th in the NHL, with NHL players/coaching/training/supervising.

The experiences Latendresse has had the past 2 years in the NHL trump anything he could of learned in the AHL, + with the Habs heading into the playoffs, it's magnified even more.

Just cause you've reached the NHL, doesn't mean there isn't anything to learn at that level

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03-20-2008, 10:51 AM
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You'd think such a superb 5 on 5 player would at least be even eh? Considering he gets no icetime too. Maybe it's just bad luck.

He doesn't play more because he's just not at that level. He can be effective when used correctly but the more icetime you give him, the more he'll get exposed. Especially against top players.
Koivu is -6, Streit -10, Kostopoulos -7 and none of those guys really have to face Sundin or those guys since Kovalev's line is playing against the opposing team's best line

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03-20-2008, 10:53 AM
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The difference is that Higgins, A Kost and S Kost are not liabilies with big icetime. They can compete against other teams' top lines and not get completely exposed. They can handle the icetime they get.

If Latendresse had the icetime of those guys, he might have 25 goals...But he'd also be -20 or worse.
How do you figure that Waffles?

The 3rd/4th line goes up against harder oposition than our 1st line.

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03-20-2008, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
Koivu is -6, Streit -10, Kostopoulos -7 and none of those guys really have to face Sundin or those guys since Kovalev's line is playing against the opposing team's best line
Koivu and Streit are regularly matched against top guys. They also get alot of icetime, in the realm of 20 minutes a night.

Kostopoulos is a role player. He shouldn't be playing more than 8 minutes a night (though he is for some reason). You really want to use him as an example of why Latendresse is a bonafide NHLer who simple can't benefit at all from the AHL?

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How do you figure that Waffles?

The 3rd/4th line goes up against harder oposition than our 1st line.
Latendresse is not on the ice when the opposition's best players are there. Carbo usually matches top line to top line, and when he doesn't, he'll put Lapierre or Smokes out and replace Latendresse with someone else.

Lapierre is +6 and gets more icetime. He also often plays with Latendresse. Where is the difference coming from?


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03-20-2008, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Koivu and Streit are regularly matched against top guys. They also get alot of icetime, in the realm of 20 minutes a night.

Kostopoulos is a role player. He shouldn't be playing more than 8 minutes a night (though he is for some reason). You really want to use him as an example of why Latendresse is a bonafide NHLer who simple can't benefit at all from the AHL?
Koivu and Streit get most of their extra minutes on the power play and PK, not by playing against Sundin or Thornton or whoever. Whenever Lantedresse played with Koivu he never looked out of place and didn't cost the team more so than Ryder or whoever played with Koivu this year. Like I said, Kovalev plays the other team's top line, not Koivu. Before Kovalev the opposing team's top line was matched with Smolinski's.

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