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Vancouver scout: Latendresse ahead of Bertuzzi at 20

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Old
03-20-2008, 10:59 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Koivu and Streit are regularly matched against top guys. They also get alot of icetime, in the realm of 20 minutes a night.

Kostopoulos is a role player. He shouldn't be playing more than 8 minutes a night (though he is for some reason). You really want to use him as an example of why Latendresse is a bonafide NHLer who simple can't benefit at all from the AHL?
I'm personally not saying that Latendresse couldn't have used some time in the AHL...he was in a tough situation where he was too good for the CHL, but couldn't play in the AHL. So the Habs decided to keep him and monitor his development in the NHL. That decision produced a decent first year for Latendresse and another decent 2nd professional year for him as well, one where he wasn't counted on as much to score as the first year.

For a player who had no control over where management decided he should play (well directly anyways) he's responded quite admirably IMO. He's done more than hold his own despite the limitations in his game and I think we'll look back on it 2 or 3 years from now and he himself will say that it was the best thing for him to go through that.

Latendresse gets alot of the blame, but management also has a responsibility in this too.

The Habs didn't make the playoffs last year, they should of made Latendresse available for the AHL playoffs last year after they were eliminated (though i'm not sure if that was possible)

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:03 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
You'd think such a superb 5 on 5 player would at least be even eh? Considering he gets no icetime too. Maybe it's just bad luck.

He doesn't play more because he's just not at that level. He can be effective when used correctly but the more icetime you give him, the more he'll get exposed. Especially against top players.



The difference is that Higgins, A Kost and S Kost are not liabilies with big icetime. They can compete against other teams' top lines and not get completely exposed. They can handle the icetime they get.

If Latendresse had the icetime of those guys, he might have 25 goals...But he'd also be -20 or worse.



He was there to develop, just like virtually every other player that has ever made the NHL.
When has Lats been a liability defensively? As a winger his reasponsibility is mainly to get the puck out along the boards when needed, and he is the strongest on the Habs at doing that, except Maybe Kovy. Please don't tell me that A.Kost or S.Kost are better than him at the point because it's BS. You can't blindly look at +- for defensive play, especially when the guy plays with the 3rd and 4th liners.

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03-20-2008, 11:04 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
You're assuming he could learn more from being a 'top dog' in Hamilton, instead of just playing a role on the 3rd/4th in the NHL, with NHL players/coaching/training/supervising.

The experiences Latendresse has had the past 2 years in the NHL trump anything he could of learned in the AHL, + with the Habs heading into the playoffs, it's magnified even more.

Just cause you've reached the NHL, doesn't mean there isn't anything to learn at that level
You cannot improve by playing so little, though. Especially playing with guys much quicker than you. We never know for sure what Lats is all about because losing and winning is such a small margin of error that Carbo cannot experiment much with the kid. Carbo cannot afford losing. While in Hamilton, Lats would have had all the ice in the world to make those mistakes, to see what he's really good at. Hamilton guys are still very much professionals, they're men most of them, somebody like Andre Kost is pretty much more of a man than Lats at this point wouldn't you say? Well Lats would have faced guys in Hamilton that would have been ahead of him in their developement anyway so it would have been like facing NHLers.

I'm happy he's still with the club because I like the kid and I want him to do well but if I would have been management, I would have sent him down at least after the first 20 games.

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03-20-2008, 11:04 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
How do you figure that Waffles?

The 3rd/4th line goes up against harder oposition than our 1st line.
It depends on the game. Recently, you're right. I think Carbo has been trying to get Koivu on a roll heading into the playoffs. It's been working, IMO.

Over the season in general, however, Higgins-Koivu have gotten the tough assignments. Smoke-Kosto have been beat up pretty badly when they get tough minutes. Lapierre's line (when he's played) has been sheltered all year.

Latendresse has basically played against the opposition's rookies all year. Nothing wrong with that, he's still younger than most of them. Still, his neutral zone play has to improve if he's going to get into the pluses.

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03-20-2008, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
Koivu and Streit get most of their extra minutes on the power play and PK, not by playing against Sundin or Thornton or whoever. Whenver Lantedresse played with Koivu he never looked out of place and didn't cost the team more so than Ryder or whoever played with Koivu this year.
I'm not saying he sucks. For ****'s sake, this place is unbelievable. I say he could benefit from time in the AHL and everyone feels the need to run to the defense of this guy.

Answer me this. Do you think Latendresse is a bonefide NHLer who is too good for the AHL?

And the top 2 lines are regularly matched up against the opposition's top 2 lines. This is how Carbo's been doing it all year.

I agree Latendresse looks good playing with Koivu. They have good chemistry together. But that doesn't mean the guy can't benefit from the AHL. You take him off this team and they likely won't skip a beat. It's not like he's NEEDED here. Why not help his development by giving him an opportunity to play a true scoring role with big icetime? After all, we're supposed to be patient with him right? Powerforwards don't develop till their 26 so we got 6 more years!

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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm personally not saying that Latendresse couldn't have used some time in the AHL...he was in a tough situation where he was too good for the CHL, but couldn't play in the AHL. So the Habs decided to keep him and monitor his development in the NHL. That decision produced a decent first year for Latendresse and another decent 2nd professional year for him as well, one where he wasn't counted on as much to score as the first year.

For a player who had no control over where management decided he should play (well directly anyways) he's responded quite admirably IMO. He's done more than hold his own despite the limitations in his game and I think we'll look back on it 2 or 3 years from now and he himself will say that it was the best thing for him to go through that.
Not saying he sucks. I just don't think the NHL is benefitting him like the AHL would.

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03-20-2008, 11:07 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Koivu and Streit are regularly matched against top guys. They also get alot of icetime, in the realm of 20 minutes a night.

Kostopoulos is a role player. He shouldn't be playing more than 8 minutes a night (though he is for some reason). You really want to use him as an example of why Latendresse is a bonafide NHLer who simple can't benefit at all from the AHL?
Latendresse is an NHL talent. The only thing he miss is his speed. With the speed, he will score more goals, more hit and he will have something he don't have, confidence.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:10 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
Lantedresse has 2nd or 3rd most hits on the Canadiens' team and he plays 10 minutes a game. On top of that he scores 16 goals and plays on the 4th line while higgins has barely any more goals and doesn't hit at all, same for Ryder or A. Kostitsyn who has 22 some goals and plays on a line with Kovalev and Plekanec.
This sounds like a ****ing FoxNews bulletin with the same talking points being regurgitated every 15 mins. You didn't even address any of the points I tried to bring up rationally for discussion, you just went off on the same "16 goals" nonsensical tangent everyone goes on.

Do you know what powerforward is? Watch no.17 on the Bruins tonight and you'll see the mentality a player needs to be a true powerforward. In fact right now, Lucic is much closer to being a 20G 20A intimidating presence than Lats is. Lucic has 3 fewer points in 1 fewer game and *gasp* he has to play with 3 and 4 liners for a lot of the year and he only plays 11:30 per game as opposed to Lats' 12:16. But I guess all those pretty goals make Lats the real powerforward.

I'm sick of this nonsense and I'm done talking Lats with people who don't want to debate the issue rationally. I think Lats can be excellent forward in this league, and have said as much on many occasions. Right now though, he's not playing like a guy who is going to intimidate and physically dominate, that's it.

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03-20-2008, 11:14 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Robert View Post
This sounds like a ****ing FoxNews bulletin with the same talking points being regurgitated every 15 mins. You didn't even address any of the points I tried to bring up rationally for discussion, you just went off on the same "16 goals" nonsensical tangent everyone goes on.

Do you know what powerforward is? Watch no.17 on the Bruins tonight and you'll see the mentality a player needs to be a true powerforward. In fact right now, Lucic is much closer to being a 20G 20A intimidating presence than Lats is. Lucic has 3 fewer points in 1 fewer game and *gasp* he has to play with 3 and 4 liners for a lot of the year and he only plays 11:30 per game as opposed to Lats' 12:16. But I guess all those pretty goals make Lats the real powerforward.

I'm sick of this nonsense and I'm done talking Lats with people who don't want to debate the issue rationally. I think Lats can be excellent forward in this league, and have said as much on many occasions. Right now though, he's not playing like a guy who is going to intimidate and physically dominate, that's it.
Well said. I'm going to stay out of this from now on because nobody listens anyways. No matter what you say, they keep bringing up "16 goals as a 19 year old! With 4th liners!!!!" and I suspect we'll keep hearing that for years to come until he finally wakes up and realizes he's bigger than everyone else or he doesn't do **** by 26 years old.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:17 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I'm not saying he sucks. For ****'s sake, this place is unbelievable. I say he could benefit from time in the AHL and everyone feels the need to run to the defense of this guy.

Answer me this. Do you think Latendresse is a bonefide NHLer who is too good for the AHL?

And the top 2 lines are regularly matched up against the opposition's top 2 lines. This is how Carbo's been doing it all year.

I agree Latendresse looks good playing with Koivu. They have good chemistry together. But that doesn't mean the guy can't benefit from the AHL. You take him off this team and they likely won't skip a beat. It's not like he's NEEDED here. Why not help his development by giving him an opportunity to play a true scoring role with big icetime? After all, we're supposed to be patient with him right? Powerforwards don't develop till their 26 so we got 6 more years!



Not saying he sucks. I just don't think the NHL is benefitting him like the AHL would.
No I know you're not saying that.

However, there is the possibility that Latendresse can learn bad habits in the AHL.

Not sure if you saw the article in the paper the other day where he was saying that he's now practicing using weighted skates to improve his skating speed. Do you think he would of taken such initiative in the AHL where his lack of footspeed probably isn't as much of a detriment to him than it is in the NHL?

There's no doubt he could of benefited from playing in the AHL last year and maybe even early this year, however, it didn't happen like that. Them the breaks but I think he's handling himself quite well despite this.

What the Habs are essentially doing is speeding up his development, Lats knows he can and will scores goals in the NHL during his career, but he's also learning that he needs to round out the rest of his game to become a guy who plays 12 + years in this league, and it's more beneficial to him to round out his game in the NHL than the AHL.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:19 AM
  #60
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Why are so many people bashing Latendresse or the way he was handled in this thread? What he has accomplished this year is nothing short of phenomenal in my opinion. Consider that he's 20, has 16 goals, and played the whole year with limited icetime, barely any PP time, and with subpar linemates on a 3rd line. I'd be curious to see a list of players with similar icetime to his and no PP time who have so many goals in the NHL, not to mention at such a young age. If in 2-3 years he gets an extended shot at producing on the PP and can't do better than his present production, then complaining will be in order, but at the moment he is exceeding expectations (you can't compare him to Lapierre and Chipchura who will struggle to score 15 goals once in their career).

So, please revisit this thread in a few years and then assess his development, but for the type of player he is and projects to be, he is doing just fine right now.
+1

The hate we direct to our players is sometimes too great. The only players that may deserve any bashing are Smolinski and Breisbois .

As for Lats, he has played very well for a player in his position. He has indeed only had 7-10 minutes of ice time a game, no PP time, playing with scrubs most of the time, and still managed to get 16 goals. What many seem to forget is that he is only 20. Moreover, PF usually take more time to develop. Thornton did not hit his stride until his 4th season in the league. I am not saying that Lats will become another Thornton but he will develop into a solid 25-35 goal scorer. As for speed, it did not affect Dave Andreychuk from scoring more than 600 goals in his career. I see Lats in the mold of the latter player but with a greater hitting ability. Once Lats matures and learns his limitations, strengths, and positional play, he will be a positive contributor to the Habs future success.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:21 AM
  #61
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Lats biggest challenge will be next year. Some of our youth is already here with some other real interesting candidates knocking on the Habs door (D'Agostini and Chipchura). Add to that that Gainey might go after some UFA and then some trades that could happen. Lats will face his biggest challenge yet and he knows that already by stating that he'll work very hard this summer.

Can't entirely disagree with Waffledave here. He should've been returned to the Dogs especially at the beginning of the year. I believe that usually, only special talent can go from Juniors to the NHL. And despite what he brings, I don't believe Lats falls in that category. But as many deficiencies in his game that he has, he still brings some scoring touch that is needed and from time to time, his bodychecks are welcome as well.

My biggest problem with Lats is his state of mind. Don't believe that he'll play able to play that physical role when you can't sleep 'cause you gave a concussion to a guy, 'cause you call André Roy saying how sorry you were because you said some nasty words during a game, and asking yourself how hurt the guy was in the one-knockout punch fight he had.....We then have to lower our expectations and just expect for Lats to stop fanning on shots, put his body in front of the net creating obstruction on the goalie and keep scoring his garbage goals.

It's all about expectations. Problem for him is that next year, previsions for the Habs will be much higher. They won't be expected to miss the playoffs, they'll have to perform, meaning that he'll have to outperform the players in camp. It will be his toughest camp and he better be ready.

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03-20-2008, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Quiet Robert View Post
This sounds like a ****ing FoxNews bulletin with the same talking points being regurgitated every 15 mins. You didn't even address any of the points I tried to bring up rationally for discussion, you just went off on the same "16 goals" nonsensical tangent everyone goes on.

Do you know what powerforward is? Watch no.17 on the Bruins tonight and you'll see the mentality a player needs to be a true powerforward. In fact right now, Lucic is much closer to being a 20G 20A intimidating presence than Lats is. Lucic has 3 fewer points in 1 fewer game and *gasp* he has to play with 3 and 4 liners for a lot of the year and he only plays 11:30 per game as opposed to Lats' 12:16. But I guess all those pretty goals make Lats the real powerforward.
I'm sick of this nonsense and I'm done talking Lats with people who don't want to debate the issue rationally. I think Lats can be excellent forward in this league, and have said as much on many occasions. Right now though, he's not playing like a guy who is going to intimidate and physically dominate, that's it.
Latendresse doesn't have the temperment to play that type of game...Lucic does, and good for him.

Latendresse is more Eric Daze in style/temperment than he is Cam Neely/Brendan Shannahan/Todd Bertuzzi.

Latendresse will never be an intimidating player, sorry to disapoint you or anyone who has this vision of him. The best way he's going to intimidate is by scoring goals and using his size to establish his position (which he will realize he can do with time) and being physical on the forecheck when he has a chance to

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:24 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Talent Analyst View Post
Latendresse is an NHL talent. The only thing he miss is his speed. With the speed, he will score more goals, more hit and he will have something he don't have, confidence.
I don't think speed is really the main issue. I think he just needs to take the puck in front of the net more often. He's very hard to move.

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Old
03-20-2008, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Why does everyone compare him to Bertuzzi all the time?

He's nothing like Bertuzzi apart from size (Bert is bigger anyways). His attitude is completely different. He'll never be as physically dominant as Bertuzzi was back when he was good. Which leads to my next point. Bertuzzi ****ing blows. He had a few mediocre seasons and 2 really amazing ones back when Markus Naslund was considered an elite player. I'm sure his incident probably ruined his career but he isn't as good as people pretend he is.

Anyways, so what's the deal then? Are we supposed to wait 5 more years before Latendresse becomes any good? I mean, is he just going to stay on the 3rd line for the next half decade before he finally blooms? Cause I dunno...A player who we are supposed to "be patient with"...Someone who is supposed to get better with time...Sounds like DEVELOPMENT to me. Call me crazy but I always thought the AHL was the #1 development league for young NHL players. It has produced some pretty awesome Habs players, like Higgins, Plekanec, Billy and Jimmy Kostitsyn, Komisarek, Price, Halak, O'Byrne, Lapierre, Grabovski and more. But I guess Latendresse is too good for the AHL, since he's so far ahead of these guys since they were in the AHL.

Was going to post something similar. I really do not see the similarity with Bertuzzi and I do not think he will ever be like him.

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03-20-2008, 11:26 AM
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I have a feeling all the negativity towards Guillaume is going to awaken a sleeping monster, this summer he is going to train his ass off and have a HUGE year next year. I can smell it, wait thats my toast..

I hope my feeling is right. 30 goals.

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03-20-2008, 11:27 AM
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Latendresse compares very favourably to John LeClair.

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03-20-2008, 11:31 AM
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Latendresse compares very favourably to John LeClair.
I didn't know Guillaume has DUI's?

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03-20-2008, 11:33 AM
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Latendresse compares very favourably to John LeClair.
True...and John LeClair was a pu**y

He didn't fight, wasn't overly physical or intimidating

Yet once he got teamed up with Lindros and realized he could impose his will physically because he was immovable from the slot area and he had a howitzer for a shot, he was unstoppable and scored more than 400 goals in his career.

It took John LeClair 3 or 4 years before he established himself, i'm sure he could of used more time in the AHL too, as he only played 8 games in the AHL, but that didn't stop him from having a great career.

You can even look at Tim Kerr's career and make parallels...

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03-20-2008, 11:37 AM
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I don't think speed is really the main issue. I think he just needs to take the puck in front of the net more often. He's very hard to move.
And he plays like in junior when I was watching him, he plays by sequence. Like Ryder.

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03-20-2008, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Comments by Lucien Deblois, scout for the Canucks (in Journal de Montréal). Also discussed on CKAC.

Controversial statement. Opinions?
Scout: Latendresse behind Lindros at age 20.

Development isn't linear. You can't compare like that.

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03-20-2008, 11:43 AM
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+1

The hate we direct to our players is sometimes too great. The only players that may deserve any bashing are Smolinski and Breisbois .

As for Lats, he has played very well for a player in his position. He has indeed only had 7-10 minutes of ice time a game, no PP time, playing with scrubs most of the time, and still managed to get 16 goals. What many seem to forget is that he is only 20. Moreover, PF usually take more time to develop. Thornton did not hit his stride until his 4th season in the league. I am not saying that Lats will become another Thornton but he will develop into a solid 25-35 goal scorer. As for speed, it did not affect Dave Andreychuk from scoring more than 600 goals in his career. I see Lats in the mold of the latter player but with a greater hitting ability. Once Lats matures and learns his limitations, strengths, and positional play, he will be a positive contributor to the Habs future success.
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Lats biggest challenge will be next year. Some of our youth is already here with some other real interesting candidates knocking on the Habs door (D'Agostini and Chipchura). Add to that that Gainey might go after some UFA and then some trades that could happen. Lats will face his biggest challenge yet and he knows that already by stating that he'll work very hard this summer.

Can't entirely disagree with Waffledave here. He should've been returned to the Dogs especially at the beginning of the year. I believe that usually, only special talent can go from Juniors to the NHL. And despite what he brings, I don't believe Lats falls in that category. But as many deficiencies in his game that he has, he still brings some scoring touch that is needed and from time to time, his bodychecks are welcome as well.

My biggest problem with Lats is his state of mind. Don't believe that he'll play able to play that physical role when you can't sleep 'cause you gave a concussion to a guy, 'cause you call André Roy saying how sorry you were because you said some nasty words during a game, and asking yourself how hurt the guy was in the one-knockout punch fight he had.....We then have to lower our expectations and just expect for Lats to stop fanning on shots, put his body in front of the net creating obstruction on the goalie and keep scoring his garbage goals.

It's all about expectations. Problem for him is that next year, previsions for the Habs will be much higher. They won't be expected to miss the playoffs, they'll have to perform, meaning that he'll have to outperform the players in camp. It will be his toughest camp and he better be ready.
Two excellent posts, there is faith to had for good debate after all!

bipolar-I think the Andreychuk comparison is excellent the more I think about it...meaning we can look forward to a long career of garbage goals.

But seriously, the idea of a big man who isn't a great skater, isn't overly physical, but has an excellent scoring touch and will go to the net and get his nose dirty to score seems to fit Lats quite well. That's kind of what I was trying to get at. The idea that he probably won't be a Bertuzzi or a Neely, but more of an Andreychuk type player.

Whitesnake- Excellent post and I can't add much more. I think the idea about changing our expectations is exactly what I was trying to say, only you worded it better. And that's kind of what I was getting at with Latendresse "discovering himself." Sounds incredibly lame, I know, but he has to discover what kind of player he wants to be. This offseason will be hardest with expectations higher, and hopefully he'll look at himself and find out how he can achieve his potential in this league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 417
Latendresse doesn't have the temperment to play that type of game...Lucic does, and good for him.

Latendresse is more Eric Daze in style/temperment than he is Cam Neely/Brendan Shannahan/Todd Bertuzzi.

Latendresse will never be an intimidating player, sorry to disapoint you or anyone who has this vision of him. The best way he's going to intimidate is by scoring goals and using his size to establish his position (which he will realize he can do with time) and being physical on the forecheck when he has a chance to
I'm glad more people are discovering it, but the fact that there are professional scouts comparing him to Bertuzzi certainly shows that a lot of people don't get it. And that's what I was trying to say with the post about his play "changing" since training camp. In training camp 2 years ago, I thought I saw a true powerforward developing. In the NHL, I'm seeing a big man who can score and sometimes play physical.

Daze is kind in the ultra-soft mode though, so I wouldn't go that far with him, he does have some grit and can throw his weight around on the forecheck. Like I said, I really like the Andreychuk/LeClair comparison. It may not be what people wanted (hey I'm one of them, I'll take Neely over Andreychuk 10 times outta 10) but if he can learn, as you said, to just establish position, drive the net and get those garbage goals, coupled with his already soft hands, he should have a successful career as a big "goalscorer" rather than a "powerforward."

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03-20-2008, 11:47 AM
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ChesterNimitz
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I don't doubt that if Latendresse can improve his skating speed even a little, that he could very well become a good power forward in the league. As of right now mind you, his skating speed is holding him back from being anything more that a questionable top six forward.
Saying that a hockey player's skating ability is in question is akin to saying a water polo player has a trouble with his swimming. In the latter case, the player drowns. In the former, the player's impact or upside will always be problematic.

The problem with Latendresse's skating is not speed, it's his lack of quickness and agility. I am of the opinion that Latendresse already has boarderline NHL straightforward speed. He also has good strength and balance on his skates (particularly for his age). What he lacks is, quickness. The ability to stop and start on a dime. He has no first step quickness and limited acceleration. This means he has trouble recovering loose pucks and executing defensive coverages. While he may get faster as he gets older, I doubt that his awkward skating style will ever allow him to develop the foot speed and quickness that will make him a top six forward.

That is all.

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03-20-2008, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ChesterNimitz View Post
The problem with Latendresse's skating is not speed, it's his lack of quickness and agility. I am of the opinion that Latendresse already has boarderline NHL straightforward speed. He also has good strength and balance on his skates (particularly for his age). What he lacks is, quickness. The ability to stop and start on a dime. He has no first step quickness and limited acceleration. This means he has trouble recovering loose pucks and executing defensive coverages. While he may get faster as he gets older, I doubt that his awkward skating style will ever allow him to develop the foot speed and quickness that will make him a top six forward.
He also thinks the game slowly, which makes it hard for him to complete bodychecks and to position himself at the good spot at the good time.

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03-20-2008, 11:55 AM
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You cannot improve by playing so little, though. Especially playing with guys much quicker than you. We never know for sure what Lats is all about because losing and winning is such a small margin of error that Carbo cannot experiment much with the kid. Carbo cannot afford losing. While in Hamilton, Lats would have had all the ice in the world to make those mistakes, to see what he's really good at. Hamilton guys are still very much professionals, they're men most of them, somebody like Andre Kost is pretty much more of a man than Lats at this point wouldn't you say? Well Lats would have faced guys in Hamilton that would have been ahead of him in their developement anyway so it would have been like facing NHLers.

I'm happy he's still with the club because I like the kid and I want him to do well but if I would have been management, I would have sent him down at least after the first 20 games.
Your arguments are well presented but how would they have replaced him? A big guy who can hit, with above average puck skills? We don't have too many of those kicking around.

I personally don't understand how anyone could be disappointed with Lats this year. If he's looked overmatched in the role he was given, I've missed it. He dissappeared from the scoresheet for stretches, but still put up goals. He's a beast in terms of strength.
The only additional thing I'd like to see from him is the improved skating and more willingness to go toe to toe with opposing players, not picking his spots as much.

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03-20-2008, 12:00 PM
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... Skating is the only thing holding him back.....
But... but... he's a Hockey player!!

Thats like saying: "Yes gentlemen, this plane should fly but the only thing holding it back right now is a lack of wings."

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