When has Lats been a liability defensively? As a winger his reasponsibility is mainly to get the puck out along the boards when needed, and he is the strongest on the Habs at doing that, except Maybe Kovy. Please don't tell me that A.Kost or S.Kost are better than him at the point because it's BS. You can't blindly look at +- for defensive play, especially when the guy plays with the 3rd and 4th liners.
Andrei Kostitsyn >>>>>> Guillaume Latendresse ====> Offense, defense and overall Now and future
Sergei Kostitsyn >>>>>>>>> Guillaume Latendresse ====> Offense, defense and overall Now and future
He should take some power skating lessons and take his visor off
dude, wow your dumb. If he wants to fight he can just take off his helmet, there's no reason to lose an eye for it, especially a guy like him who plays alot in the corners and stands infront of the net
Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiro
Andrei Kostitsyn >>>>>> Guillaume Latendresse ====> Offense, defense and overall Now and future
Sergei Kostitsyn >>>>>> Guillaume Latendresse ====> Offense, defense and overall Now and future
Enough said
oh man, not saying that Guy will be better then both but one day you'l eat your words, trust me
Last edited by Beakermania*: 03-21-2008 at 12:31 AM.
Here is a list of some notable power fowards and the number of AHL games they played.
Doan 39
Andrechuk 0
Bertuzzi 0
Leclair 8
Iginla 0
Shanahan 0
Pyatt 27
Morrow 0
Nash 0
Ryan Malone 3 (even though he was a 4th rounder)
Kevin Stevens 0 (even though he was a 6th rounder)
Tocchet 0 (even though he was a 6th rounder)
On the other hand, even a player like Brett Hull played 67 games in the AHL and Kostitsyn played 170 games there.
There is a strong precedence that players who are strong enough to play in the NHL like Lats, don't play in the minors.
Doan - full junior career
Andreychuk - scored 38, 31, 36 goals his second, third, fourth year
Bertuzzi - longer junior career and played IHL games
Leclair - 4 years of college and AHL time
Iginla - exceptional talent, not even going to touch this
Shanny - HOF'er, again not going touch it
Morrow - longer junior career and IHL games
Nash - exceptional talent
Malone - 4 years of college
Stevens - 4 years of college and IHL games
Tocchet - i guess is somewhat comparable
You are comparing random talents and guys who played longer junior careers and played full college careers to a guy who was put in at 19. Most of them are either exceptional talents or spent extra 1 to 3 years developing in the minors/college
I don't really understand what more people could want from Latendresse at this point. What would it have taken from him for people to be satisfied?
Would a 20 goal rookie season been enough, or would he still have been bashed for his +- rating? What about this year? He's very close to a 20 goal season, and drastically improved his defensive play to the point that he's no longer a liability on the ice.
Are we really at the point where we expect players to just Waltz into the NHL and start producing at a near ppg pace? Sounds like we've been spoiled by the Crosbys, Malkins and Ovechkins of this world.
"But he should have spent some time in the AHL to get better!!11!1!!!!"
Even if he spent three full seasons in the NHL, it would still be ridiculous for us to expect him to flawlessly transition to the NHL. It takes time to get used to the speed and even more time to build up the confidence that you do belong in this league.
Let's imagine for a second that he did spend three years in the AHL and is now 22 or 23 year old PF rookie about to start his rookie year in the NHL. How many goals would be considered a succesfull rookie season? 40? 30? No, many would say even 15 goal would be a perfectly reasonable first year production. It would also be expected that this AHL-trained Latendresse have trouble with the defensive aspects of the game. The next year we would expect him to maybe improve on his goal production and be a better defensive player.
So if Latendresse achieved out of junior what would be considered reasonable for him to achieve after three years in the AHL, what are you guys complaining about? Even after their time in the AHL, it took Plekanec and Kostitsyn time to get used to the NHL and they still sufer from inconsistency sometimes. Grabovski has spent a full year + playofs in the AHL and dominated the league so bad the last few games that he was called up. He didn't step into the NHL without skipping a beat either.
The fact is that Latendresse is a power forward prospect, and those take time to get used to the NHL. They're built big and skate slow. They need to figure out where to be on the ice in every situation to maximized their efficiency. That can only be leraned through NHL experience and it takes time. We have to be patient.
A lot of people say he needs to be a quicker skater to succeed in the NHL. He doesn't. Sure it would be great if he could, but a player can only improve their speed so much. What he needs is what I described above: the experience to know how to use the speed he has to be effective. That's how some slow skaters have become great players, by knowing their limitations and working around them. Predictably, those players are typically late bloomers.
I think it was Forsberg that said mental quickness is more important than physical quickness. You can have the ability to buzz around the ice like a bee, but if you don't know where you need to be going, you're going to be late on every play. Conversely, if you're a slow fatass but know where you have to be and when, you'll look like you're everywhere. Take a look at Chipchura. He's a slow skater, but always knows where he's gotta be. It'll take him some time to figure out the NHL pace, but he will eventually. Just like Latendresse will.
Why does everyone compare him to Bertuzzi all the time?He's nothing like Bertuzzi.
PRETTY obvious waffledave......... AT Gui's peak, i beleive, and others beleive, that Gui can put up the same numbers Bertuzzi put up at HIs peak, other than penner, maybe bernier, Gui is the only one who even looks close to the type of player bertuzzi is and hopefully was at his peak, and he was a MONSTER at his peak, no team wouldnt want him.
BUT, more importantly, Gui has repeatedly stated his favorite player was Todd Bertuzzi, and has said often before last year that he tries to model his game after bertuzzi as much as possible
Kids only 20 guys, how many times we all gotta say, calm down, and just WAIT, hes still adapting to the type of player he has to become, the only bad news is hes gotta figure it out on his own, its too bad we dont have a veteran power forward to show him how its done, Shanahan would of been a godsend.
But to think gui does not resemble Bertuzzi at all is just ridiculous, to me, gui can become PARRALEL to Bertuzzi in his prime in 5-6 years
Doan - full junior career
Andreychuk - scored 38, 31, 36 goals his second, third, fourth year
Bertuzzi - longer junior career and played IHL games
Leclair - 4 years of college and AHL time
Iginla - exceptional talent, not even going to touch this
Shanny - HOF'er, again not going touch it
Morrow - longer junior career and IHL games
Nash - exceptional talent
Malone - 4 years of college
Stevens - 4 years of college and IHL games
Tocchet - i guess is somewhat comparable
You are comparing random talents and guys who played longer junior careers and played full college careers to a guy who was put in at 19. Most of them are either exceptional talents or spent extra 1 to 3 years developing in the minors/college
You make it sound like Lats only played 2 junior seasons like a PM Bouchard or something. He played 3 seasons and 169 games similar to Doan, Iginla, Morrow, Andreychuk. He also played more pre-NHL games than Stevens, Malone.
As for the argument of superior talent, you would think somebody like Spezza or Brett Hull or Oates, who all have superior talent wouldn't need time in the AHL, yet they've all played there.
If the guy is physically ready, what is dominating the AHL going to do for him? So he'll score 50 goals in Hamilton, then everybody will expect that from him in Montreal.
Why does everyone compare him to Bertuzzi all the time?
He's nothing like Bertuzzi apart from size (Bert is bigger anyways). His attitude is completely different. He'll never be as physically dominant as Bertuzzi was back when he was good. Which leads to my next point. Bertuzzi ****ing blows. He had a few mediocre seasons and 2 really amazing ones back when Markus Naslund was considered an elite player. I'm sure his incident probably ruined his career but he isn't as good as people pretend he is.
Anyways, so what's the deal then? Are we supposed to wait 5 more years before Latendresse becomes any good? I mean, is he just going to stay on the 3rd line for the next half decade before he finally blooms? Cause I dunno...A player who we are supposed to "be patient with"...Someone who is supposed to get better with time...Sounds like DEVELOPMENT to me. Call me crazy but I always thought the AHL was the #1 development league for young NHL players. It has produced some pretty awesome Habs players, like Higgins, Plekanec, Billy and Jimmy Kostitsyn, Komisarek, Price, Halak, O'Byrne, Lapierre, Grabovski and more. But I guess Latendresse is too good for the AHL, since he's so far ahead of these guys since they were in the AHL.
We should sign Markus Nalsund this summer.
as an islander, bertuzzi was invisble. He wouldn't use his body and he tried all these junior dangle moves all the time instead of using his body.
I dont have bertuzzi like expectations for gui. I just want him to rub buddies and and play hard.... and see what happens.
As for the argument of superior talent, you would think somebody like Spezza or Brett Hull or Oates, who all have superior talent wouldn't need time in the AHL, yet they've all played there.
which you are arguing against yourself than as well. If superior talents need seasoning, why can't Lats?
Although i think it may be pointless to argue that a guy spending 4 years in college playing against men and also maturing physically himself at that time is in a little bit different situation then Lats and maybe was better off long term because of it.
In the end.....why should we care if a player is ahead in his development at 20???? Isn't it the ceiling and when he reaches it that is important? It's not the case, absolutely not, but what if Lats reached his ceiling already???
Andrei Kostitsyn >>>>>> Guillaume Latendresse ====> Offense, defense and overall Now and future
Sergei Kostitsyn >>>>>>>>> Guillaume Latendresse ====> Offense, defense and overall Now and future
Enough said
I don't say that he's better , or that he will be better , but Latendresse is 20 years old , Andrei Kostitsyn is 23 years . One has 16 goals playing on the 3 th line most of the season , the other 22 goals playing on the first line and on the PP first wave .
If you really want to rank them , you have to wait to see what Latendresse will do at 23 years old , and compare his stats and his play with the ones of Kostitsyn this season .
I don't say that he's better , or that he will be better , but Latendresse is 20 years old , Andrei Kostitsyn is 23 years . One has 16 goals playing on the 3 th line most of the season , the other 22 goals playing on the first line and on the PP first wave .
If you really want to rank them , you have to wait to see what Latendresse will do at 23 years old , and compare his stats and his play with the ones of Kostitsyn this season .
Yes the story is yet to be written no doubt but Kostitsyn didnt speak much english when he came over here and also battled 3 full seasons at the AHL. He knows a few things about pro hockey. Last season in training camp was a slap in the face.
And again Latendresse plays on the 3rd or 4th line because thats where he belongs at this junction. There has been lots of opportunity to play on the "Koivu" unit this season, I am so sick of this excuse he has had the chances he just doesnt capitalize.
He could have nabbed that job with a streak of pts and some scoring but his lack of skating skill hurts when hes not putting up pts.
Having said all that S Kostitsyn is awsome that kid is better the Guy at this point and I could argue Andre possibly too. He plays with whoever and is a smart hockey player with the disposition of a pittbull.
Lats needs a mean streak. He needs that Lindros-in-his-prime type attitude. He could become very dangerous with that.
If Lats ever gets that mean streak, I could see him becoming one of our best youngsters, even better than Higgins, Kostys, etc. However, without the anger, he will always be far behind.
His production, given his icetime, is the reason why he deserved to stay up. I don't have the stats on hand, but he's 3rd or 4th on the team in terms of even strength goals and he doesn't see alot of even strength time. 14 of his 16 goals have been scored at even strength, that's 1 less even strength goals than Alex Kovalev
So he's doing something right, he's not hurting the team and has even improved, drastically I might add, on his +/- and his defensive play overall.
I don't see what people's beef is with Latendresse, I really dont
I agree. There are a lot of "analytical" posts that really amount to saying, "I just don't like Latendresse." The dude can play. He's one of the Habs' best 12 forwards. It's that simple.
Andrei Kostitsyn >>>>>> Guillaume Latendresse ====> Offense, defense and overall Now and future
Sergei Kostitsyn >>>>>>>>> Guillaume Latendresse ====> Offense, defense and overall Now and future
Enough said
Lats is better defensively than either of them...maybe you need to grow up instead of the constant childish posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Namso
Lats needs a mean streak. He needs that Lindros-in-his-prime type attitude. He could become very dangerous with that.
If Lats ever gets that mean streak, I could see him becoming one of our best youngsters, even better than Higgins, Kostys, etc. However, without the anger, he will always be far behind.
He has almost as many big hits as Komi and has half the ice time. Doers Komi have no mean streak?
Last edited by Beakermania*: 03-21-2008 at 12:31 AM.
Kostitsyn can create his own chances to score goals.
so... what's your point? Some guys are good at creating plays and some guys are better at finishing them, if we would have only Kostitsyn type players or Latendresse type players we'd be last in the conference, we need both to succeed, you need those garbage goals to wing games, man that was an awfull point you were trying to make, you desirve a
