HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Retired Number...Who is next?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-20-2008, 06:25 PM
  #76
mabus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,226
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
You claim he was more important than any other great player on the '86 team. Without their contribution they are nowhere near winning the cup that year and it was not a single handed effort by Roy. That much is generally accepted by most people.
You're right that many players contributed to the 86 and 93 cups. But he was the reason {alone} that we got past the Rangers in 86, and he was the Conn Smyth winner of the playoffs. He was simply the best player that year. In 93 he kept the team alive through ten consecutive overtimes until the players could finally score. Without those ten consecutive overtimes the team would not have won the cup. Simply put.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
He retired as one of the best goalies statistically yes but better than Dryden? Again opinion and not factual. There are some that believe Dryden was one of the greatest of all time if you account for the pitifully small equipement and lack of personal protection he had versus the HUGE gear Roy wore along with his trademark jersey sleeves that began at his wrist and ended at his waist.
This is of course subjective opinion from both of us. The point is, he's good enough that we have to argue about which one was better. You think Dryden was a bit better than Roy? Ok ..... That's a pretty good bar to be compared to I think. I don't see anyone comparing Koivu to Lafleur or Richard. Clearly if anyone of the two is going to get their Jersey retired next season, it's Roy over Koivu ... by a country mile. It's not even a close comparison here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
Where your post goes all wrong is that it was a salary shedding move by Molson. Roy was an asset and you are making the case that rather than trading him when his value was super high and erasing that salary for players of their choosing, Molson eroded his value by letting him blow his lid and dictate where he was to be traded therefore netting us next to nothing. Why??

Molson may have had problems and were looking to rid themselves of the franchise but they would never liquidate an asset of value to pick up somebody else's garbage. Do you know what other teams may have offered if our hands weren't tied? That entire fiasco was not a salary triming exercise, it was a player that became bigger than the team he played for. His pride was his undoing.
You have to go back to that time and remember the situation {as i'm sure you do}. Canada was in a recession, Molson's sales were down heavily. To add to the problems the team was losing money due to ever increasing salaries {in the pre cap era}, with a very low canadian dollar compared to the american dollar {around 70 cents at the time}. If all that wasn't bad enough, Molsons had decided to close out the old forum and build a new Molson center with more seats and more luxury boxes to increase profits. You may remember, the cost overruns on building it were enormous.

So that's where the team was at the time. The ownership was bleeding money out of every orifice and was desperately trying to cut costs everywhere it could.

A few months before Savard was fired, he was already working on a deal to trade Roy away. There was no real logical reason for doing so, just after the 93 cup win. It was strictly a financial move which would have brought in Owen Nolan and Fiset for Roy. Savard was fired {in a panic} after the team went on a losing skid at the start of the team, after missing the playoffs the previous season {it was only a half season due to a lockout}.

In came Rejean Houle and Mario Tremblay and the firesale began almost immediately. For years after that we saw player after player let go to free agency without any attempt to keep them, and trade after trade where good expensive talent was traded away for cheap journeymen with very low salaries.

A couple of years later, Molson still bleeding money out of every orifice sold the team to George Gillette for a song, practically giving him the Molson center if he'd just take it off their hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
To suggest that Maurice Richard, Beliveau or Lafleur who bled our colors and put the team above their own interests and played for little salary ...
I have no idea where any of this is coming from. For starters ... Richard. You may think Roy is the only player ever to flip out on the ice, perhaps you may want to remember the Richard Riot.

Guy Lafleur had an ego every bit as large as Roy's {ok no one does, but he's close}. Lafleur never paid for "little salary". In fact he was the league's first million dollar player and when he found out that others were making more than him, he wanted to quit the team {consult his book - Overtime}.

Ken Dryden actually DID sit out a season because he felt he wasn't being paid enough. Say whatever you want about Roy, but he never sat out a season, and never even threatened to leave over money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
.... are in the same league as this walking ego that effectively crippled the team you are making the case he loved so much for a period of 10 years is ludicrous. He is not legend. He played here for 9 years and was made a god by the media. He dirsrespected and virtually crippled the franchise with his departure. He put his own interests ahead of those of the team. He is a professional athlete that should have shown the restraint necessary but his ego didn't allow him to think of anything other than himself.
Roy didn't cripple the team ... Houle did. Roy didn't want to be traded away.

Mario Tremblay and Patrick Roy absolutely HATED one another. So much so that several months before Tremblay joined the team as the head coach, he and Roy actually got into a fist fight in a restaurant. When Tremblay joined the team, he took it upon himself to humiliate Roy at every possible opportunity behind closed doors, in practices, and in the dressing room.

For Patrick, when Tremblay left him out for >9< goals that day in Detroit, he was now taking the constant humiliation out in public. In a moment of rage, feeling completely humiliated, he went up to Corey and said either "This is my last game" or "You've won, this is my last game" depending on who you ask.

The next day, Roy was called to Houle's office to discuss the incident, and he made it clear he didn't mean what had been said and that he wanted to stay with the team, but Houle said that there was no going back, and that Roy had to go.

I don't recall if it was later that day, or the next, that Roy was quoted in the newspaper saying that he did not want to go, but that it was out of his hands.

Now, you can say whatever you like about Roy, but ... he didn't cripple this team. He was being beaten down like a dog by an amateur head coach, who hated him and was humiliating him at every opportunity, and like any professional athelete with a modicum of self respect, he lost his cool. Then Houle took the opportunity to unload the salary. I don't have a clue how you can blame him for "crippling the team". That's just crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
You can blame Molson all you want but that is not verifiable and not even logical. A firesale would have happened before Roy dictated how it would go down.
See above, I explain the chronology of events that led to the firesale.

For the record again, it DID begin before the Detroit incident. Savard had already worked out a deal to trade him to Colorado for Nolan and Fiset. In fact Savard is on the record saying that after he was fired, he went to his office to clear out his desk, and the Colorado Gm called him and agreed to the deal, at which point Savard told him the deal was off. True story.

So the jist of it is, Roy was being moved out before Houle was even hired. The Detroit incident had nothing to do with it, and frankly i'm just speculating here but, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't humiliate him on purpose, hoping he'd ask for a trade, so they could avoid being criticized for moving the team's star goalie.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
Roy's number SHOULD NEVER be raised to the rafters, especially on St. Patrick's day, particularly not on the Canadiens Centennial. There is no candidate that is less deserving of the honor than the one who made this team mediocre for a decade with his actions. He wasn't alone in doing so but he was the catalyst.
One of the greatest goalies of all time, who won the conn smyth as the most valuable player in the playoffs, in two of our cups..... is the least deserving candidate?

I think that's just stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
God, NOOOO! Yes, he won two Stanley Cups with Montreal, but he had plenty of ordinary seasons. One thing is clear, he was never dominating enough to be the #1 goalie for Team Canada.
He is considered by every hockey analyst i've ever heard comment on the subject, one of .. if not THE... best goalies of all time. Your opinion notwithstanding.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 03-21-2008 at 08:56 AM.
mabus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-20-2008, 06:34 PM
  #77
HabsHockey
Registered User
 
HabsHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,886
vCash: 500
This is funny, *the best* goalie of all time who played half his career in Montreal and people don't wanna retire his number. Go Tremblay.

HabsHockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-20-2008, 10:32 PM
  #78
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
He is considered by every hockey analyst i've ever heard comment on the subject, one of .. if not THE... best goalies of all time. Your opinion notwithstanding.
Your lack of rebuttal means that you admit you were incorrect about Hayward in 1989???

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 06:49 AM
  #79
RushDP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
You have to go back to that time and remember the situation {as i'm sure you do}. Canada was in a recession, Molson's sales were down heavily. To add to the problems the team was losing money due to ever increasing salaries {in the pre cap era}, with a very low canadian dollar compared to the american dollar {around 70 cents at the time}. If all that wasn't bad enough, Molsons had decided to close out the old forum and build a new Molson center with more seats and more luxury boxes to increase profits. You may remember, the cost overruns on building it were enormous.


So that's where the team was at the time. The ownership was bleeding money out of every orifice and was desperately trying to cut costs everywhere it could.

A few months before Savard was fired, he was already working on a deal to trade Roy away. There was no real logical reason for doing so, just after the 93 cup win. It was strictly a financial move which would have brought in Owen Nolan and Fiset for Roy. Savard was fired {in a panic} after the team went on a losing skid at the start of the team, after missing the playoffs the previous season {it was only a half season due to a lockout}.

In came Rejean Houle and Mario Tremblay and the firesale began almost immediately. For years after that we saw player after player let go to free agency without any attempt to keep them, and trade after trade where good expensive talent was traded away for cheap journeymen with very low salaries.

A couple of years later, Molson still bleeding money out of every orifice sold the team to George Gillette for a song, practically giving him the Molson center if he'd just take it off their hands.



I have no idea where any of this is coming from. For starters ... Richard. You may think Roy is the only player ever to flip out on the ice, perhaps you may want to remember the Richard Riot.

Guy Lafleur had an ego every bit as large as Roy's {ok no one does, but he's close}. Lafleur never paid for "little salary". In fact he was the league's first million dollar player and when he found out that others were making more than him, he wanted to quit the team {consult his book - Overtime}.

Ken Dryden actually DID sit out a season because he felt he wasn't being paid enough. Say whatever you want about Roy, but he never sat out a season, and never even threatened to leave over money.



Roy didn't cripple the team ... Houle did. Roy didn't want to be traded away.

Mario Tremblay and Patrick Roy absolutely HATED one another. So much so that several months before Tremblay joined the team as the head coach, he and Roy actually got into a fist fight in a restaurant. When Tremblay joined the team, he took it upon himself to humiliate Roy at every possible opportunity behind closed doors, in practices, and in the dressing room.

For Patrick, when Tremblay left him out for >9< goals that day in Detroit, he was now taking the constant humiliation out in public. In a moment of rage, feeling completely humiliated, he went up to Corey and said either "This is my last game" or "You've won, this is my last game" depending on who you ask.

The next day, Roy was called to Houle's office to discuss the incident, and he made it clear he didn't mean what had been said and that he wanted to stay with the team, but Houle said that there was no going back, and that Roy had to go.

I don't recall if it was later that day, or the next, that Roy was quoted in the newspaper saying that he did not want to go, but that it was out of his hands.

Now, you can say whatever you like about Roy, but ... he didn't cripple this team. He was being beaten down like a dog by an amateur head coach, who hated him and was humiliating him at every opportunity, and like any professional athelete with a modicum of self respect, he lost his cool. Then Houle took the opportunity to unload the salary. I don't have a clue how you can blame him for "crippling the team". That's just crazy.



See above, I explain the chronology of events that led to the firesale.

For the record again, it DID begin before the Detroit incident. Savard had already worked out a deal to trade him to Colorado for Nolan and Fiset. In fact Savard is on the record saying that after he was fired, he went to his office to clear out his desk, and the Colorado Gm called him and agreed to the deal, at which point Savard told him the deal was off. True story.

So the jist of it is, Roy was being moved out before Houle was even hired. The Detroit incident had nothing to do with it, and frankly i'm just speculating here but, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't humiliate him on purpose, hoping he'd ask for a trade, so they could avoid being criticized for moving the team's star goalie.




One of the greatest goalies of all time, who won the conn smyth as the most valuable player in the playoffs, in two of our cups..... is the least deserving candidate?

I think that's just stupid
You must be the only person on this board that sees this chain of events.

I'd like to poke a few holes in your strange theories. You are suggesting that Molson involved themselves with the daily running of the club. You are saying that they conspired to ridicule Roy so he'd blow his lid and put the team in a position of trading him for netting next to nothing. You are correct in saying Savard had a deal almost done that would have moved an asset (Roy) for impact players. Yet Molson chose to fire Savard, nix the deal and then spent the following year ridiculing Roy to get less of a return? And you say my comment was stupid?

Your chronology of events have no basis in reality. Molson was having hard times because of their other businesses mainly their brewery. If you think a couple of million dollars of player salary would make a difference to a multi billion dollar company and that they would actually waste their time involving themselves with the running of the team in the first place you are dead wrong. In fact Molson was incredibly patient and responsible with their search for an owner. They even had an out clause that should Gillet default they would resume ownership. There were absolutely no cost overruns with the Molson Center. It came in on budget and on time because it was a private venture and was used as an example of how government projects are inefficient and wasteful versus private ventures. The whole Molson conspiracy to get rid of Roy is stupid.

Maurice Richard did flip on the ice...at the opponent not at his team. The riot was instigated by the crowd not the player. Dryden sat out because they were being extra cheap in negotiating and that was his right but did he hurt the team by doing so? Did he demand a trade and handcuff the organization?

Houle and Tremblay were incompetent at their jobs I'll agree. Houle's job was made that much harder when he was being offered table scraps because everybody knew he had to move Roy. Roy put him in that position. He did NOT say he didn't want to be traded the next day and in fact never showed regret. He only apologized to the fans for his arm lifting gestures. He told Corey he was done and never backed away from that. Suggesting that he didn't instigate the incident is ludicrous. To suggest that Houle took the opportunity to shed salary, that Savard could have done a year earlier if that was the goal, is simply insane. Suggesting he was humiliated on purpose to make managment look good borders on your requiring medication.

My opinion is and has always been that his playoff contributions in two cup runs have been negated by his selfish acts that ultimately led to a decade long drought for the team. There is no denying that Houls and Tremblay were responsible to some extent but as a player he put himself above the team and deserves the same respect he has shown the team since that day. He still dumps on the team at every opportunity and you want to raise his number?

I think your entire post is just ridiculous and you seem to be the only poster that sees Molson as part of the problem. You have somehow created a very complex conspiracy that makes absolutely no sense. I've seen conspiracies before ( I am a former Expos fan after all) but never one this ludicrous.

RushDP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 08:55 AM
  #80
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
I think your entire post is just ridiculous and you seem to be the only poster that sees Molson as part of the problem. You have somehow created a very complex conspiracy that makes absolutely no sense. I've seen conspiracies before ( I am a former Expos fan after all) but never one this ludicrous.
Molson was a HUGE part of the problem..... This isn't a conspiracy theory.... Their costcutting beginning that season was a huge factor in a number of trades including Turgeon, Damphousse, etc....

Ask McPhee he'll confirm it if you don't believe me...

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 09:22 AM
  #81
Stephen Locke*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Offline
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,023
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
His name is ALREADY enshrined in the Hall of Fame. He was inducted by an overwhelming majority his first year eligible.



This just isn't going to happen. Assuming the team wins the cup {And I think this team >CAN< win the cup}. I doubt Koivu would ever rise to the level of Con Smyth winner. You'd need someone like Kovalev at his best, or Carey Price stoning the other teams to win it.

Assuming that the team wins a cup, and Koivu wins one Con Smyth {and this is a long shot}.... That would be a single great year. Is that what we base retiring someone's number on? Playing good for 2 months in a single year?

All the people talking about Koivu ever having any chance at all of having his jersey retired are in a fantasy world. This just is never going to happen folks. Koivu is a 2nd line center, who plays an OFFENSIVE role, yet has only broken 20 goals a couple of times. His teams have consistantly and routinely missed the playoffs throughout his carrear, and winning ONE stanley cup and Con Smyth isn't going to affect that.

I'll say it again.... Retiring a jersey is a GREATER honor than being voted into the Hall of Fame.... and Koivu is never going to be in the hall of fame as anything more than a tourist. I really wish people talking about the possibility of him having his jersey retired would stop that and think about this .... we >ALL KNOW< he's never going to the hall of fame... so why would we ever consider retiring his jersey? It just doesn't make sense.
I thought the jersey retirement was also reserved for the players who meant so much for the Habs and represented the Habs with their dedication and committement to the franchise.(*Official Team honour*).Koivu has been a excellent captain and is currently the 2nd longest serving all-time in Montreal.He was a very talented premier centre earlier in his career,but unfortunately due to a significant amount of injuries (had only a few complete and healthy seasons )and poor management(the organization has failed to build or surround him correctly) he couldn't reach that potential but despite declining he has legitimately stepped as a very good offensive player who still had a respectable and fairly productive career all things considered.But career stats and all-star game selections aren't telling the whole story when it comes to Koivu as a hockey player.His intangibles,his intense and fierce dedication,his abilities to elevate and perform in high-pressure situations (playoffs....)and his strong commitement to this franchise as a loyal captain and as a Hab player speak volumes about Saku Koivu.I don't think he'll certainly get his jersey up as of now,but he'll certainly be considered for the honour when his career will be finished.He has chances to get it done though,whatever you don't like it or not.He's not a sort of scrub or anything,Koivu has been a part of our glorious history.He deserves respect other than being constantly underestimated.He probably won't get it but he'll be at least considered.

As for the mediocre Hab teams(1999-2003) constantly missing the playoffs during his tenure as captain,do you seriously acknowledge that no one would have led them to the Cup?Those teams were basically the product of a horribly run franchise from top to bottom and poor management established.Heck,I doubt Alfredsson,Jagr or any legit star player would've transformed those truly horrible squads into instant P.O contenders.It appears purely unfair and unjustified to connect Koivu's career and legacy to the failure of the Habs as organization in general during those years.


Last edited by Stephen Locke*: 03-21-2008 at 01:56 PM.
Stephen Locke* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 10:07 AM
  #82
mabus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,226
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Your lack of rebuttal means that you admit you were incorrect about Hayward in 1989???
Not at all, you correctly pointed out that it was merely speculation, and my opinion, and you're right on both counts. It's my speculative opinion that had we played Roy instead of Hayward in 1989 we probably would have won the cup. But there's nothing to debate there, you have your opinion and I have mine, and we're both merely speculating. No sense arguing back and forthe on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
You must be the only person on this board that sees this chain of events.
Here's my sequence of events, you can tell me which of the following you think didn't happen, or you disagree with.
  • Molson began construction of the Molson center 13 days after the Habs won the cup against the LA Kings in in the spring of 1993.
  • Molson was suffering from poor sales and low profits around this period, only made worse by a weak canadian dollar, roughly 70 cents to it's American counterpart.
  • In 1994 Molson sold off their 75% stake in Aikenhead's to Home Depot for 150 million dollars
  • The habs missed the playoffs in spring of 95 for the first time in 25 years.
  • Serge Savard began working on a deal to move Patrick Roy to the Avalanche in exchange for Fiset and power forward Owen Nolan on October 12th 1995
  • 4 days later Savard and Demers were fired. Lacroix called Savard up to tell him they had a deal immediately after Savard was fired, at which point he informed Lacroix he was no longer the GM, and could not complete the deal. Rejean Houle and Mario Tremblay came into the team. Houle was a molson employee, involved in sales and public relations from the mid 80's to 1995 when he was hired as GM.
  • The molson center finally opened it's doors on March 16th 1996, grossly over budget. The final costs of building it were 270 million dollars.
  • Molson finally sold 80% of the Canadiens to George Gillette on condition that he also take the Molson center off their hands. The total cost of the sale was a mere 185 million dollars {about the price of the team itself}, essentially giving away the money losing arena and all liabilities associated with it FOR FREE.
Now you tell me, which of those things do you disagree with? Certainly the above chain of events doesn't prove they got rid of Roy to save money ... but .... It's certainly consistant with it. What do you think the odds are that they'd want to move Roy like that under Savard, and then need to less than TWO MONTHS later under Houle? You seriously think that's a coincidence? That there was no will to shed salary?

You think Houle initiated a fire-sale immediately after trading Roy {you could say, starting with Roy} as another coincidence?

This isn't a conspiracy theory. Molson was bleeding money out of every orifice. They sold shares in their other assets, and they gave away the Molson center for free, and sold the team outright. These actions are not consistant with a financially happy organization. They put in a Molson rep to manage the team, and he IMMEDIATELY started dumping salaries. That's not a conspiracy, but it's not a coincidence either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
I'd like to poke a few holes in your strange theories. You are suggesting that Molson involved themselves with the daily running of the club. You are saying that they conspired to ridicule Roy so he'd blow his lid and put the team in a position of trading him for netting next to nothing. You are correct in saying Savard had a deal almost done that would have moved an asset (Roy) for impact players. Yet Molson chose to fire Savard, nix the deal and then spent the following year ridiculing Roy to get less of a return? And you say my comment was stupid?
I'm not suggesting a conspiracy of any kind. Adding the word Conspiracy is a clumsy way of making what i'm saying sound foolish, without actually having to deal with the claim. Look at what i'm actually saying please ... Molson was losing money, and so they wanted to dump salary. This is hardly on par with a "conspiracy theory". Let's try to avoid the hysterics please.

As far as ridiculing Roy for "A YEAR".... You're mistaken. Houle traded Roy a mere month and a half or so after coming in as the team's GM. Savard was fired on Octover 16th 1995 and Houle traded Roy away on December 5th 1995 if i recall well. That's just 6 weeks or so. It was very very quick.

I think we can both agree that a rookie Gm with zero experiance like Houle, would have created a firestorm if he'd moved Roy on his first day on the job. I'd assume that he was probably looking for an oportunity to find some reasonable justification for moving the team's star player.

I have no idea if Tremblay was deliberately trying to provoke Roy into demanding a trade, but I do know that Tremblay and Roy hated one another, and that Tremblay did everything imagineable to make Roy want to leave. It could be because they wanted Roy to himself demand a trade, or maybe it was just natural animosity. Either way, Houle wanted to slash and burn salaries, and Roy gave him the perfect excuse to get rid of him. Whether it was planned that way or not, I've no idea.

But to blame Roy for the dismantling Houle did after Roy wasn't even on the team... I just don't understand that at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
I think your entire post is just ridiculous and you seem to be the only poster that sees Molson as part of the problem. You have somehow created a very complex conspiracy that makes absolutely no sense. I've seen conspiracies before ( I am a former Expos fan after all) but never one this ludicrous.
I haven't created a conspiracy at all. We agree Molson was in financial straights, we agree they dumped the team, and the Molson center {for free}. We agree Houle was a Molson employee, and we agree he initiated a firesale {whether through intent or incompetance}. The only thing we disagree on is whether the higher ups at Molson decided to trade away Roy and initiate a fire sale. You think they didn't, and that Houle was just incompetant, I think it was intentional. Aside from the hysterical assertions that i'm some insane conspiracy theorist or some other such stupidities, we largely agree on the basics. We just interpret some of them differently.


Last edited by mabus: 03-21-2008 at 10:17 AM.
mabus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 11:40 AM
  #83
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Not at all, you correctly pointed out that it was merely speculation, and my opinion, and you're right on both counts. It's my speculative opinion that had we played Roy instead of Hayward in 1989 we probably would have won the cup. But there's nothing to debate there, you have your opinion and I have mine, and we're both merely speculating. No sense arguing back and forthe on that.
What is WRONG with you man?

This is not about OPINION!!

Hayward hardly played in the 1989 playoffs (1-1 in the early rounds), so you CANNOT say that the Habs would have won had Roy played more!! Patrick Roy played in the finals against Calgary and was outgoaled by Mike Vernon, pure and simple. Just like he was outgoaled in the playoffs in 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1994 by greats such as Andy Moog, Rejean Lemelin and Jon Casey - only in those years we lost in either the first or second round.

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 12:08 PM
  #84
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,441
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
You must be the only person on this board that sees this chain of events.

I'd like to poke a few holes in your strange theories.

I think your entire post is just ridiculous and you seem to be the only poster that sees Molson as part of the problem. You have somehow created a very complex conspiracy that makes absolutely no sense. I've seen conspiracies before ( I am a former Expos fan after all) but never one this ludicrous.
Man, by the time we finish your first sentence, there is already a glaring innacuracy that comes forth. A LOT of people believe and know this to be true. Corey was a lapdog for Molson.

As pointed out by Beakermania and assessments previously made by McPhee and my own beliefs, I think this pokes a few holes in your denial of reality.

Conspiracy theory... yeah and there was no meeting on Jekyll Island...

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 01:05 PM
  #85
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=mabus;13198852]Not at all, you correctly pointed out that it was merely speculation, and my opinion, and you're right on both counts. It's my speculative opinion that had we played Roy instead of Hayward in 1989 we probably would have won the cup. But there's nothing to debate there, you have your opinion and I have mine, and we're both merely speculating. No sense arguing back and forthe on that.


Here's the thing though, I don't for a minute believe you're giving you're honest opinion. Either you're mis-informed about the sequence of which goalie played when that year or you're trying to re-inforce your arguement .

This board has become a crying zone for posters screaming 'Listen to me, I'm right'

In truth, I agree with a lot of your points. Mtl's decline post 93 was a perfect storm of events. Injuries, panic management, rash financial decisions, bad hirings, bad luck, currency, taxation, everything that could go wrong, did. Molson cutting off the $ was, imo, a chief reason for the leanest of the lean years.

When the Mtl Canadiens were forced to deal away players of the calibre of Damphousse and Recchi for reasons purely financial, well, that says a lot.

As for Koivu, I don't believe that his # will be retired. If a lot of ifs fall into place and the fans that have felt the connection to him that they do, clamor for the honor, a lot stranger things have happened.

Patrick Roy will have his # retired. He was the key player in 2 improbable cup wins. In truth, a lot of players contributed hugely to both wins, Claude Lemieux esp., in 86, but Roy was the story that was told. He won those 2 cups, made his rep. on them and will be recognized. You mentionned the 86 NY series in particular. Roy played a legendary game, #4 I believe in which he stoned them in ot, before McPhee sent Lemieux [or vice versa] in alone to win it. [offside btw]. Roy didn't singlehandedly win that series but that game comes up as a classic performance.

Your Tremblay/Roy incidents, well I wasn't part of the team's entourage but I don't believe the extreme you speak of is more than urban legend. I know Tremblay didn't want Roy running the team, I know Roy bristled under his former roomate making decsions he thought were his to make, but Tremblay did what he thought was best, though tact wasn't his strong suit. Ask Ron Tugnutt how pleasant it was to be around Roy in those days.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 01:30 PM
  #86
mabus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,226
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
What is WRONG with you man?

This is not about OPINION!!

Hayward hardly played in the 1989 playoffs (1-1 in the early rounds), so you CANNOT say that the Habs would have won had Roy played more!!
Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Hayward play in game 6 of the finals? I'm looking over the stats for that seasons playoffs, and you're right, I am misremembering the proportion of games played, but I do have a very strong memory of yelling my lungs out at Hayward {i'm pretty sure it was in the final game} to stop wandering away from the net. Nearly giving myself a stroke in the process. But it has been a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Here's the thing though, I don't for a minute believe you're giving you're honest opinion. Either you're mis-informed about the sequence of which goalie played when that year or you're trying to re-inforce your arguement .
Like I said in the post above, I did misremember the proportion of games played. I was quite surprised to see that this afternoon actually. I was also wrong about Tremblay and Roy getting into a fist fight. What i'm reading on it today is that they "Almost came to blows" ... That's the kind of thing that happens when you are talking about things that happened 15-20 years back, memories get a little foggy and sometimes details get a bit inaccurate.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 03-21-2008 at 05:27 PM.
mabus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 01:52 PM
  #87
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Like I said in the post above, I did misremember the proportion of games played. I was quite surprised to see that this afternoon actually. I was also wrong about Tremblay and Roy getting into a fist fight. What i'm reading on it today is that they "Almost came to blows" ... That's the kind of thing that happens when you are talking about things that happened 15-20 years back, memories get a little foggy and sometimes details get a bit inaccurate.
My Dad told the story, for about 50 years about how a wrestler had been involved with Jean Beliveau's wife. After all these years, Beliveau included this in the ridiculous rumour category that he had to deal with over the years.

I told the old man that he shouldn't be such a gossip, as if he could take back 5 decades of spreading rumours, and while Mom laughed at him, he just shrugged and went back to sleep.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 02:08 PM
  #88
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 12,246
vCash: 500
Roy may or may not get his # retired...there are arguements that can be made for both sides of the coin...But, I can tell you this, I will always hold Roy and Tremblay both to blame for what happened, equally, egos and pride got in the way and were put before the TEAM...I will always harbour resentment towards both of those men...

BLONG7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 02:17 PM
  #89
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Roy may or may not get his # retired...there are arguements that can be made for both sides of the coin...But, I can tell you this, I will always hold Roy and Tremblay both to blame for what happened, equally, egos and pride got in the way and were put before the TEAM...I will always harbour resentment towards both of those men...
Both guys have strong personalities. Neither was equipped to step back and get a big picture view. I've seen it many times, these guys clash. I'd suspect that Tremblay's learned tp step back a bit, Patrick, well not that I've seen.

Those personaities got both of them where they are though.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 02:22 PM
  #90
the goalie man 31
Registered User
 
the goalie man 31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 197
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Roy may or may not get his # retired...there are arguements that can be made for both sides of the coin...But, I can tell you this, I will always hold Roy and Tremblay both to blame for what happened, equally, egos and pride got in the way and were put before the TEAM...I will always harbour resentment towards both of those men...
I completely agree, but I think he will get his number retired, he was a huge asset to our success and the organization wouldn't be playing fair because he definitely deserves it except for going to Colorado

the goalie man 31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-21-2008, 09:14 PM
  #91
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Hayward play in game 6 of the finals? I'm looking over the stats for that seasons playoffs, and you're right, I am misremembering the proportion of games played, but I do have a very strong memory of yelling my lungs out at Hayward {i'm pretty sure it was in the final game} to stop wandering away from the net. Nearly giving myself a stroke in the process. But it has been a long time.
Glad to be of assistance.

You're wrong and I am correcting you.

Patrick Roy played Game 6 and was not very good. Someone told me that it marked the first time in history that the Habs lost a Stanley Cup deciding game in Montreal.

It was not the only time Roy got into the Habs record book.

Of course, one year earlier, Roy became the first Canadiens goaltender to ever lose a series to the Boston Bruins, though it turns out this was merely good practice for repeating the exploit three more times.

Patrick Roy was "standout" good in the 1986 and 1993 playoffs. He deserved his two Conn Smythe trophies. However, it takes more than two great playoffs to get your number retired in Montreal, especially if you are VERY ordinary in many other playoffs.

Guy Lapointe was more consistently dominant in the NHL over a decade as well as being a key member of Team Canada in both 1972 and 1976. He should be next.

Emile Bouchard was the best defenceman of his era and also deserves consideration.

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2008, 01:41 PM
  #92
RushDP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Man, by the time we finish your first sentence, there is already a glaring innacuracy that comes forth. A LOT of people believe and know this to be true. Corey was a lapdog for Molson.

As pointed out by Beakermania and assessments previously made by McPhee and my own beliefs, I think this pokes a few holes in your denial of reality.

Conspiracy theory... yeah and there was no meeting on Jekyll Island...
You KNOW that Molson ordered Houle and Tremblay to tick off Roy so he'd blow his top and they could move him? Because that's the conspiracy that I refer to when I say "conspiracy". We are supposed to believe that Roy could have been traded for legitimate assets but Molson picked up the phone, nixed that and 6 weeks later gave him away for nothing along wiith Keane? And you shake your head at me?

I did not deny any of the points that Molson was having trouble and were getting rid of the team. I don't even deny they initiated a search for an owner that would relive them of the team. I did dispute the claim that the Center came in over budget because as I remember it was budgeted at $250M and came in on time and on budget. It was compared directly to the BigO as an example of what the public sector achieved versus the profit oriented private sector.

Again, I fail to see why you and others willingly believe that Molson directed a campaign to drive Roy out when they could have traded him weeks earlier.

RushDP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2008, 01:45 PM
  #93
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 20,347
vCash: 500
I won't say who will have his jersey retired, but I think this will be done and March 3rd, 2009. That should be enough.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2008, 02:53 PM
  #94
mabus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,226
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Glad to be of assistance.

You're wrong and I am correcting you.

Patrick Roy played Game 6 and was not very good. Someone told me that it marked the first time in history that the Habs lost a Stanley Cup deciding game in Montreal.
I stand corrected on this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Patrick Roy was "standout" good in the 1986 and 1993 playoffs. He deserved his two Conn Smythe trophies. However, it takes more than two great playoffs to get your number retired in Montreal, especially if you are VERY ordinary in many other playoffs.
Patrick Roy is pretty much Universally considered one of, if not the, best goaltender in NHL history, and one of the overall best Clutch Playoff players period.

I'm not even going to debate this issue with you as you are in the extreme minority in thinking he was anything less than one of the leagues greatest players.

Any discussion that begins with "I think that what's considered one of the Greatest goalies of All Time was just an average player because...." is just not worth bothering with.

mabus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-23-2008, 12:30 AM
  #95
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,878
vCash: 500
Habs 1990 playoffs

The NHL network had the Habs-Bruins 1990 playoff series featured today.

UGLY! Habs getting spanked in five games by the B's. Patrick Roy playing awful.

In fact, watching that show today made me re-live those years (1987-1992) when after the initial promise of Roy's Conn Smythe Trophy in 1986 and some good regular season performances playing 45-50 games per year (getting lots of rest with a Brian Hayward helpfully supporting him), the Habs would lose year after year in the playoffs to teams they should have beaten, only to see Roy outgoaled by:

Ron Hextall
Rejean Lemelin
Mike Vernon
Andy Moog

In point of fact, 1993 was another "anomaly year" in which Patrick was excellent, especially in all the overtimes.

But then again, in 1994, he got outplayed by Jon Casey of Boston AGAIN!

Thank you NHL Network for reminding me of why two great playoffs out of ten years should not lead to the retirement of a jersey.

Guy Lapointe and Emile (Butch) Bouchard must come first!


Last edited by BaseballCoach: 03-23-2008 at 06:44 AM.
BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-23-2008, 02:43 AM
  #96
Hab-a-maniac
Registered User
 
Hab-a-maniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto via Calgary!
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,148
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
The NHL network had the Habs-Bruins 1990 playoff series featured today.

UGLY! Habs swept in four games by the B's. Patrick Roy playing awful.

In fact, watching that show today made me re-live those years (1987-1992) when after the initial promise of Roy's Conn Smythe Trophy in 1986 and some good regular season performances playing 45-50 games per year (getting lots of rest with a Brian Hayward helpfully supporting him), the Habs would lose year after year in the playoffs to teams they should have beaten, only to see Roy outgoaled by:

Ron Hextall
Rejean Lemelin
Mike Vernon
Andy Moog

In point of fact, 1993 was another "anomaly year" in which Patrick was excellent, especially in all the overtimes.

But then again, in 1994, he got outplayed by Jon Casey of Boston AGAIN!

Thank you NHL Network for reminding me of why two great playoffs out of ten years should not lead to the retirement of a jersey.

Guy Lapointe and Emile (Nutch) Bouchard must come first!
You're way too harsh. Roy ewas outplayed by Vernon but in the finals. Roy was a rock through the first few rounds with a GAA just above 2 (excellent for 1989). And his 1993 and 1986 efforts were awesome but not his only good playoff years. Actually the Habs lost in 5 in 1990. And Hab offense was nil so I fail to see how Roy cost them. He was solid in the 1st round defeat of Buffalo. It was 1991 where he really struggled as he had a GAA over 3 in his 13 games. The 7 game loss in that year's DF was truly about Moog outplaying Roy. The Series-winning goal came in the 3rd on a shot from before the blue line by Neely.

Habs had so much heart in that series and still did not get to the Conf. finals despite it. Even if they did, Mario would have had Roy for breakfast. They were swept in 1992 and Roy was worse that year. He wasn't outplayed by Hextall in 93 or 89 (when he split duties with Ken Wregget) and in 1987 Hextall outplayed Hayward because Roy had struggled in the 1st game of the DF with Quebec (7-5 loss). Plus in 1994 he was pretty good even in a losing effort, see his 60-something save performance in game 5 that went to OT all barely a day after having his appendix removed. In 1987, Hayward came in, played way better and stayed there till elimination in game 6 of the Conf. Final so Roy wasn't the starter.

Lemelin was the main guy in the 88 DF we lost as both Roy and Hayward couldn't change things (Roy was pulled in game 2 I believe). Roy meant more to the franchise than Butch Bouchard I'm afraid. Plus Lapointe can't get his # retired. They obviously decided he wasn't going to since Boom Boom was #5 and they only retired his. And no they can't do it over because they retired #12 for both Dickie Moore and Cournoyer. So, the only other living candidates IMO are Lemaire, Bouchard, Roy, Carbo and Laparriere. No one would care if it was a dead guy. And those we might think deserving like Durnan can't be because #1 already went just to Plante. We could still see 2 numbers raised to the rafters next year but it depends.

Hab-a-maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-23-2008, 06:23 AM
  #97
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 12,246
vCash: 500
Roy was usually awful vs the Bruins in the playoffs...he was scared of Cam Neely, and routinely beaten by Ray Bourque...The Habs had not lost to the B's in the playoffs in 45 years, and Roy lost to them, to end the Habs streak...that being said, he was very much part of our last 2 Cups, and he was a big part of the Avs 2 cups, so in total he won 4 Cups in a 20 year span, which is good, but not Ken Dryden good...6 Cups in 8 years...

BLONG7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-23-2008, 06:23 AM
  #98
Hackett
HF Needs Feeny
 
Hackett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
The NHL network had the Habs-Bruins 1990 playoff series featured today.

UGLY! Habs swept in four games by the B's. Patrick Roy playing awful.

In fact, watching that show today made me re-live those years (1987-1992) when after the initial promise of Roy's Conn Smythe Trophy in 1986 and some good regular season performances playing 45-50 games per year (getting lots of rest with a Brian Hayward helpfully supporting him), the Habs would lose year after year in the playoffs to teams they should have beaten, only to see Roy outgoaled by:

Ron Hextall
Rejean Lemelin
Mike Vernon
Andy Moog

In point of fact, 1993 was another "anomaly year" in which Patrick was excellent, especially in all the overtimes.

But then again, in 1994, he got outplayed by Jon Casey of Boston AGAIN!

Thank you NHL Network for reminding me of why two great playoffs out of ten years should not lead to the retirement of a jersey.

Guy Lapointe and Emile (Nutch) Bouchard must come first!
Statistically, 1993 was roy's worst year, believe it or not... but he went into athe playoffs and carried a D thaqt was filled with 21-23 year olds.... go figure

And yeah, boston gave him a helluva time... he went on to say the cam neely was the most difficult player he ever faced... I think those bruins teams were in his head for a while. Its too bad that Roy was hospitalized in the middle of the 1994 playoff against boston. He absolutely owned them including a 60 plus save OT performance in the garden.... he looked just as good as in the 93 playoffs, if not better... but then, tugnutt came in and pissed away the potentially clinching game on home ice and Roy got shelled in game 7 coming back from the operation.

Hackett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-23-2008, 10:30 AM
  #99
RushDP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Molson was a HUGE part of the problem..... This isn't a conspiracy theory.... Their costcutting beginning that season was a huge factor in a number of trades including Turgeon, Damphousse, etc....

Ask McPhee he'll confirm it if you don't believe me...
I respect McPhee and have read that before so there is nothing new in the costcutting quasi firesale that developed. However, using the fact that Molson was under financial pressure to create a scenario that Molson installed Houle and Tremblay with the intent of driving Roy out by making life unbearable is a conspiracy theory. That is the case the poster was making. It is that theory that I am poking holes in.

Are you agreeing with the poster that makes the claim that Roy was an innocent victim of a conspiracy to drive him out OR do you agree with McPhee when he says that Tremblay wanted to regain control the team that Roy was very used to dictating to with the previous coach? I tend to side with McPhee on this one.

I agree with McPhee 100% when he says that they each had strong and unbending wills. I agree with him that Tremblay wanted to take back control of the team and the room and that Roy, who it is well known called the shots when Demers was there, resisted that. They had a strained relationship and it cracked. That's how most reasonable people see it. Roy lost his cool and the rest is history.

We never talked about the other trades and cost cutting measures in any way. We were only addressing Roy. I made the case that what he had accomplished in two playoffs was nullified by his pride and ego driven unprofessional actions resulting in a situation that handcuffed an already incompetent GM into making a terrible trade and thereby harming this team long term. You can agree or disagree with this.What Molson did after that is irrelevant because we are discussing Roy here. What I don't get is how this became an analysis of Molson's financial situation at the time that had nothing to do with Roy's departure IMO.

RushDP is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:08 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.