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Barry Trotz's tenure as Caps coach (RS: Healthy; Playoff: 2nd Round Exititis)

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Old
05-17-2017, 08:59 PM
  #976
Brian23
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
I'd love to hear how Trotz specifically "limited" these players. Vague speculation doesn't do it for me.

We all know the types of guys Poile gravitates toward in the offensive end. Steady, but low upside guys historically.


Also that thread is not largely one sided against Trotz from what I saw, briefly skimming through a few pages. Much more of the criticism is leveled at him not being a "playoff coach/not adjusting" rather than a bad developer of players.
He's still awful at developing players. He treated Kuznetsov awfully when he first came over, has done nothing to really take Wilson game to another level, and Burakovsky (in my eyes) is still much the same player as when he arrived. The only players he arguably "developed" were Orlov and Schimdt, where Orlov was already good and just needed to A. Get back into Game Shape and B. Continue to gain experience. But even Schmidt seems like an accident as Trotz only used him when he was forced to, and even tried to "upgrade" on him when we had other pieces that should have sat first.

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05-17-2017, 09:17 PM
  #977
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Wilson, looking damn good, Orlov same, Kuzy, two pretty good seasons. Bura and Mojo....Schmidt. Is seems petty if not unbelievable to suggest Trotz had nothing to do with any of their advancement as players.

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05-17-2017, 09:21 PM
  #978
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There was an entire playerstribune article where Kuznetsov described how Trotz beat the creativity out of him in favor of MUH DUMP AND CHASE.

It's painstakingly obvious that the only way he develops players is by limiting their opportunities and forcing them to play boring uncreative dump and chase cycling hockey. Kuz turned out ok because he has Fedorov level tools but could have been even better.

As a result the caps get spanked by any team that knows how to connect on a skilled play.

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05-17-2017, 09:30 PM
  #979
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Mojo has gotten a tiny bit better under Trotz but that has more to do with him hitting his mid 20s and finishing his development as a player

The best Bura ever looked was his 1st NHL game before the Trotzwashing set in.

Wilson is the 7 goal 4th liner/solid PKer that was projected as his average development track, neither Lucic boom nor Boll bust.

Orlov has been on the exact same development track since the very beginning, he was just set back over a year by the wrist. To Trotz's credit he didn't handle him as badly as Oates and McPhee but that's almost impossible to do.

Schmidt turned out well, I guess Trotz scratching him did the job

Holtby and Grubauer, yeah they were developed well and that's credit to Trotz since Korn is attached to him by the hip

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05-17-2017, 09:33 PM
  #980
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Sure enough, the mere passage of time and games played should account for a certain amount of progression in younger players regardless. There's also reason to believe a large share of the development of the defensemen is due to Reirden (who Trotz did help hire, granted).

I wouldn't say Wilson looks damn good at all. He needs to put those stretches together for much longer and show more offensive aptitude. For me when it comes to whether development is exemplary the answer is no and largely because their identity still remains so flimsy across the board. Those two things ought to go hand-in-hand.

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05-17-2017, 09:36 PM
  #981
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You don't think Wilson looked damn good in the playoffs? Many commentators were saying he was our best player. Sure Reirdon deserves some credit, the entire coaching staff deserves some credit. That's all I'm saying. It BS to say the coaches had no hand in player development.

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05-17-2017, 09:40 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
You don't think Wilson looked damn good in the playoffs? Many commentators were saying he was our best player. Sure Reirdon deserves some credit, the entire coaching staff deserves some credit. That's all I'm saying. It BS to say the coaches had no hand in player development.
He just flew around like a mad dog using his size and speed to his advantage. He wasn't generating chances he normally doesn't, he got a few lucky goals in early, but its not as if he turned on another level. The only difference between him his first year and now is he can skate better (has nothing to do with coaching) and he's got experience to not take the stupid plays he was before.

If anything, Trotz has neutered Wilson a bit. Even if he does look good, he's not looked as good as he's should.

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05-17-2017, 09:56 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
You don't think Wilson looked damn good in the playoffs? Many commentators were saying he was our best player. Sure Reirdon deserves some credit, the entire coaching staff deserves some credit. That's all I'm saying. It BS to say the coaches had no hand in player development.
Of course they had a hand in it. I just don't think it's been particularly exemplary.

And, yeah, I need to see that Wilson for more of a prolonged period to believe it's the norm. I certainly wouldn't write his name in pen as the 2RW next fall. Wilson being their best player is also not good news for how well other guys are playing.

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05-17-2017, 10:14 PM
  #984
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I wasn't going for exemplary, just that some credit is deserved.

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05-17-2017, 10:16 PM
  #985
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He just flew around like a mad dog using his size and speed to his advantage. He wasn't generating chances he normally doesn't, he got a few lucky goals in early, but its not as if he turned on another level. The only difference between him his first year and now is he can skate better (has nothing to do with coaching) and he's got experience to not take the stupid plays he was before.

If anything, Trotz has neutered Wilson a bit. Even if he does look good, he's not looked as good as he's should.
Ok man, clearly you're past the point of reason with regards to Trotz. I guess it's understandable.

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05-17-2017, 10:51 PM
  #986
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I don't understand the bark on Trotz regarding developing young players. I feel he did good job. Remember actually it was Trotz who recognized our lack in 2C and tried to develop Bura and Kuzy in this role. If not Trotz, Kuznetsov would be a right wing and we would have never filling hole in 2C. Also he asks Kuznetsov to shoot more and take more responsibilities (which he does gradually, see against whom Kuzya played this and last playoffs). If Kuznetsov sucks, than it won't be because of Trotz, but despite him IMHO. He developed Orlov and Shmidt just fine, they both were really good this playoffs. Orlov emerging to top pairing D, how can't you credit Trotz for that? it happened under Trotz. Also he developed Willson too. When Trotz arrived, Willson was just a goon. Trotz made him a very good defensive player. It's not Trot'z fault that Willson lacks offensive instincts. Though this playoffs gave us some hopes in that regard. Only player who i can hold against Trotz would be Burakovsky, but this jury is still out.

but yes, to succeed you need contributions from cheap young players and a funny thing we got that. if we advanced, we would have talked how Bura, Kuzya, Wilson, orlov and Shmidt steeped up which they did. We failed because our veterans failed us miserably. Last playoffs it was veterans and youngsters sucking. this year vise versa. never clicking at the same time lol. oh yeah, would be nice to have offensive contribution from the bottom F too against Pitts, but again they were awesome in the last games on PK. honestly i don't know what the series against Pitts showed us as the first games were really weird. Though the last game, game 7, was pretty telling lol

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05-18-2017, 12:40 AM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Hivemind View Post
If you bothered to click on the thread link, you'll see them naming Colin Wilson and David Legwand as players that Trotz limited.

You're "positive example" is blatantly ignoring that Radulov spent four years in the KHL and how Radulov's subsequent return to Nashville ended.


But, yes, continue pretending that you know more about the Predators than Predators fans do and that 80% of Trotz's NHL career doesn't matter.
You're the first to call out "authority bias!" when someone defers to the knowledge and experience of coaches and GMs, but here you are preaching the veracity of fans? You'd take the word of Tennessee hockey fans over the objectively great GM that employed Trotz for over 20 years?

How exactly did Trotz curtail the offensive prowess of young players? By making them play a 200-foot game? Is that not a worthwhile standard to instill in NHL players? You list a grand total of, what, 3 players in 15 years that *might* have been stymied by the coach. Meanwhile, none of the proven NHL talent that landed in Nashville had their production fall off a cliff under Trotz.

This is a guy that's regarded league-wide as a great coach, but we're supposed to question the people that know the sport best because "PerdFan" and "Gnashville" say so?

That's like taking advice on vaccinations from Jenny McCarthy instead of Johns Hopkins...

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05-18-2017, 12:46 AM
  #988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Wilson, looking damn good, Orlov same, Kuzy, two pretty good seasons. Bura and Mojo....Schmidt. Is seems petty if not unbelievable to suggest Trotz had nothing to do with any of their advancement as players.
And it's more than just the emergence you'd expect from young players. They're also playing strong, responsible hockey. MoJo and Burakovsky were posterchildren for ragdoll physics a couple years ago, getting knocked off the puck and onto their keisters with alarming regularity. Now they're getting to the net, good along the boards, strong on their skates...

I like the way Trotz develops young players. I've got plenty of other complaints, but that's not one of them.

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05-18-2017, 01:05 AM
  #989
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If anything, Trotz has neutered Wilson a bit. Even if he does look good, he's not looked as good as he's should.
I'm sure he's encouraged Wilson to tone down those aspects of his game. It's fine, even beneficial, to have a 7-goal 4th-liner taking reckless penalties. But if you see top-9 potential in him, he has to play a more disciplined game.

In today's NHL, guys like Perry and Lucic have dialed way back on the penalties, and a ****bird like Marchand has never had 100 in a season. You can't count on him to play 250-400 more minutes a year if you can't count on him to stay on the ice at all, or not to put your team at a disadvantage regularly.

Wilson is taking far fewer bad penalties. I'm all for situational thuggery, but he needs to be encouraged to be smart about it.

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05-18-2017, 08:02 AM
  #990
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We'll never win anything with Trotz. Please move on.

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05-18-2017, 10:26 AM
  #991
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Trotz on Vrana's demotion in December:

“We’re going to do what’s best for the player,” Trotz said. “We’re not in a development league, we’re in a winning league.”

Vrana would never return to his earlier form and was seemingly in a funk for the rest of the season. Mann seemed quick to single him out as inconsistent etc after the Bears loss last night.


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05-18-2017, 10:56 AM
  #992
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Trotz on Vrana's demotion in December:

“We’re going to do what’s best for the player,” Trotz said. “We’re not in a development league, we’re in a winning league.”

Vrana would never return to his earlier form and was seemingly in a funk for the rest of the season. Mann seemed quick to single him out as inconsistent etc after the Bears loss last night.
But but but but but

I thought Trotz was A- worth in his development of players.

Fire his sorry eye brow twitching a s s

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05-18-2017, 11:00 AM
  #993
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Trotz on Vrana's demotion in December:

“We’re going to do what’s best for the player,” Trotz said. “We’re not in a development league, we’re in a winning league.”

Vrana would never return to his earlier form and was seemingly in a funk for the rest of the season. Mann seemed quick to single him out as inconsistent etc after the Bears loss last night.
Definitely not a flattering article on Mann and Trotz's player development skills.

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05-18-2017, 01:56 PM
  #994
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Definitely not a flattering article on Mann and Trotz's player development skills.
What article are you reading? I'm reading the one describing a player with his own issues. Be consistent, be a good pro. Those things he's not doing it would seem.

This guy has responded like a player who thinks he should be in DC already instead of developing and learning to be a pro. Dude needs to grow up.

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05-19-2017, 06:52 AM
  #995
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
What article are you reading? I'm reading the one describing a player with his own issues. Be consistent, be a good pro. Those things he's not doing it would seem.

This guy has responded like a player who thinks he should be in DC already instead of developing and learning to be a pro. Dude needs to grow up.
I'm talking about the public comments/shaming. There is no single way to develop a player's confidence, everybody is different. Part of coaching is knowing the right buttons to press, and it looks like they had plenty of time to figure that out with Vrana.

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05-19-2017, 08:45 AM
  #996
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