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Phoenix CXXVII: Neither a Barroway Nor a Lender Be

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Old
05-19-2017, 12:07 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by canuckfan75 View Post
The Sun Belt Bashing on these boards are shameful.

Growing up a Canuck fan I am proud to share are great sport with everyone.


Hockey is a great game and should be shared all over the world. to try and keep it to ourselves is shameful
.... agree... its hypocritical, insincere to bash a market due to its proximity to the equator . If you truly love hockey & believe in the power of the game then you should also believe that given strong & astute leadership at league level, good ownership & management it should flourish everywhere. And yes, share.... as for your comment about "Sunbelt Bashing on these boards" I can tell you flat out we have a "No Sunbelt Bashing" policy here on BOH so if you ever read anything like that that we the Moderators may have missed much appreciated if you'd Report it. Its a disingenuous argument. Specious. And were not havin it from Members though you do see it in various articles/blogs podcasts etc that are linked from time-time. Markets dont fail the NHL & any given club, the NHL & Ownership do that to themselves & fail the market.

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05-19-2017, 12:45 PM
  #177
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Unfortunately, Nashville's metro area is quite different from Phoenix metro. The Valley is like a loose collection of individual fiefdoms lacking a true centralized core like Nashville has. Phoenix is the capital city but the real money and influence is in Scottsdale and Fountain Hills and places like that. And there is real animosity between the individual cities, not to mention the whole East versus West thing. It's dysfunctional to an extreme.
One thing that helps Nashville and Tampa is the lack of a local NBA franchise/traditional college basketball powerhouse. It's a lot easier to attract fans and media attention if you're the only winter sport in town.

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05-20-2017, 01:09 AM
  #178
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One thing that helps Nashville and Tampa is the lack of a local NBA franchise/traditional college basketball powerhouse. It's a lot easier to attract fans and media attention if you're the only winter sport in town.
I completely agree, Jim. Not having to compete with the NBA or MLB is a really big deal for Nashville.

Here in Sin City, we could potentially have a similar success story if the powers that be in Vegas allow the Knights & the Raiders coexist by themselves for awhile. However, if they let their egos blind them into wooing an NBA or MLB team in the not so distant future, it would probably spell doom for the Knights.

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05-20-2017, 02:27 AM
  #179
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I completely agree, Jim. Not having to compete with the NBA or MLB is a really big deal for Nashville.

Here in Sin City, we could potentially have a similar success story if the powers that be in Vegas allow the Knights & the Raiders coexist by themselves for awhile. However, if they let their egos blind them into wooing an NBA or MLB team in the not so distant future, it would probably spell doom for the Knights.
Vegas is a completely different situation though, LV will get droves of away fans who will likely start planning their yearly Vegas trip to coincide with their teams hockey game.

I know lots of people in Vancouver planning this way

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05-20-2017, 08:53 AM
  #180
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Re: Sun Belt bashing; I don't do it, I'm glad to see the game grow and be in different cities. Still there are cities where the NHL just doesn't work. Arizona, Vegas eventually and Florida. It's to bad they're in the sun belt but I'd say the same thing if those teams where in Canada or in the Northeastern US.

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05-20-2017, 08:56 AM
  #181
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Vegas is a completely different situation though, LV will get droves of away fans who will likely start planning their yearly Vegas trip to coincide with their teams hockey game.

I know lots of people in Vancouver planning this way
Really not seeing many people wasting an evening in Vegas to watch a hockey game that they can watch any time back home. A Sunday afternoon football game I can see due to the time being played and there only being 8 home games. Plus this strategy didn't help the Coyotes much.

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05-20-2017, 09:18 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Re: Sun Belt bashing; I don't do it, I'm glad to see the game grow and be in different cities. Still there are cities where the NHL just doesn't work. Arizona, Vegas eventually and Florida. It's to bad they're in the sun belt but I'd say the same thing if those teams where in Canada or in the Northeastern US.
uh you just bashed 4 fanbases indirectly, tony, u do realize Florida has two franchises and none are going anywhere.

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05-20-2017, 09:39 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Re: Sun Belt bashing; I don't do it, I'm glad to see the game grow and be in different cities. Still there are cities where the NHL just doesn't work. Arizona, Vegas eventually and Florida. It's to bad they're in the sun belt but I'd say the same thing if those teams where in Canada or in the Northeastern US.
I always get a little amusement reading statements like this. "The NHL just doesn't work" in a city that hasn't even completed the expansion process, eh? Okay. For your next trick, can you please let me know what the Lotto numbers for tomorrow are?

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05-20-2017, 10:26 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Re: Sun Belt bashing; I don't do it, I'm glad to see the game grow and be in different cities. Still there are cities where the NHL just doesn't work. Arizona, Vegas eventually and Florida. It's to bad they're in the sun belt but I'd say the same thing if those teams where in Canada or in the Northeastern US.
.... uh oh, kind of a bad choice of words, frame-job there tony d... as you can see, a few Inspectors above taking issue with your workmanship... let me try & help you out a bit.... Quite correct that "there are cities where the NHL just doesnt work" and yes that would include Arizona & Florida however you failed to qualify that statement in providing the reasons for the failures which in both cases includes writ-large = lousy, intransigent ownership & management throughout both teams formative years in addition to a number of other factors including scheduling & volume of games (too much inventory, too many RS games), length of season & less than convenient arena locales. Florida seems to be turning the corner with new ownership & new Lease (literally & figuratively) on life under Viola but sure, Jurys' kinda out, we'll see within a few years whether or not their able to turn things around. So far so good though. Signs of promise.... Arizona of course, reasons discussed at length, its not market failure, the League & Ownership own this one.... Vegas; we just dont know. Theyve got a great Owner in Bill Foley and thats 90% of the battle right there. So I wouldnt be so quick to be writing them off before the pucks even been dropped. Its crazy, I agree, $500M Expansion Fee, a lot of unknowns but I could just as easily see the Knights turning on Las Vegas in the same way the Preds have turned things around & turned on Nashville and in Vegas's case doing so on steroids. Even more impressively. These guys have access to a deep ocean of knowledge & experience when it comes to live entertainment & promotion light years beyond any other market in the NHL. Be more prudent to see what they do before writing their epitaph no?. Certainly there are negatives, obstacles, but.... lots of positives as well.


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05-20-2017, 01:23 PM
  #185
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.... uh oh, kind of a bad choice of words, frame-job there tony d... as you can see, a few Inspectors above taking issue with your workmanship... let me try & help you out a bit.... Quite correct that "there are cities where the NHL just doesnt work" and yes that would include Arizona & Florida however you failed to qualify that statement in providing the reasons for the failures which in both cases includes writ-large = lousy, intransigent ownership & management throughout both teams formative years in addition to a number of other factors including scheduling & volume of games (too much inventory, too many RS games), length of season & less than convenient arena locales. Florida seems to be turning the corner with new ownership & new Lease (literally & figuratively) on life under Viola but sure, Jurys' kinda out, we'll see within a few years whether or not their able to turn things around. So far so good though. Signs of promise.... Arizona of course, reasons discussed at length, its not market failure, the League & Ownership own this one.... Vegas; we just dont know. Theyve got a great Owner in Bill Foley and thats 90% of the battle right there. So I wouldnt be so quick to be writing them off before the pucks even been dropped. Its crazy, I agree, $500M Expansion Fee, a lot of unknowns but I could just as easily see the Knights turning on Las Vegas in the same way the Preds have turned things around & turned on Nashville and in Vegas's case doing so on steroids. Even more impressively. These guys have access to a deep ocean of knowledge & experience when it comes to live entertainment & promotion light years beyond any other market in the NHL. Be more prudent to see what they do before writing their epitaph no?. Certainly there are negatives, obstacles, but.... lots of positives as well.
A few of us inspectors would also have an issue with the above sentence.

Because you're painting the entire market with a broad brush based upon 20 years worth of Keystone Kops running things and we've had several lengthy discussions where if done right it could hold its own.

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05-20-2017, 03:12 PM
  #186
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A few of us inspectors would also have an issue with the above sentence.

Because you're painting the entire market with a broad brush based upon 20 years worth of Keystone Kops running things and we've had several lengthy discussions where if done right it could hold its own.
.... give me a frickin break... you know exactly what I meant... The NHL doesnt work in Metro Phoenix. Fact. And why is that? You know why, I know why, most everyone who takes the time to look into it & is wholly objective understands why and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the market being in the Sunbelt or... that it couldnt & shouldnt have succeeded given astute, creative & aggressive ownership is your problem right there. Never had it. Ergo the NHL doesnt work in Arizona because the NHL doesnt know how to make it work nor did Burke-Gluckstern, Ellman & Moyes, IA.... I wouldnt & dont frame it the way the op did but he's not entirely incorrect, just needed to qualify it some..... after reading your reply, Im sorry I did. Maybe I should just tighten the screws. Torch the market. Buy into the League's & IceArizonas excuses in playing the blame game & blame Glendale, blame the fans, blame the market, blame location & blame the climate and environment, blame the heat. And really go to town. As nice, friendly & humorous, generally objective, fair, open minded & even tempered as I can be.... I can be as equally if not more viscous & mean spirited if after defending a market for years I find friends & allies turning on a sentence uttered by another which is not without validity given the context. You should know that by now. I have no fear, go nuclear, push the button. No problem.

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05-20-2017, 03:52 PM
  #187
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A few of us inspectors would also have an issue with the above sentence.

Because you're painting the entire market with a broad brush based upon 20 years worth of Keystone Kops running things and we've had several lengthy discussions where if done right it could hold its own.
Inspector Legend, you may want to put a few qualifiers on "done right." In 20 years, even with maxed out subsidies this dumpster fire has burned through every opportunity to do it right and failed. Both owner Barroway and the mighty Commissioner have labeled GRA and its location one of the primary reasons this franchise has failed to succeed. I am sure you agree with that assessment and therefore one of your qualifiers would be a new arena correct? To be successful in the new arena they will need to control 100% of the revenue streams correct? To do this they will likely need to pay the lions share of its cost correct? They will need to find an owner who is willing to fund a new arena and personally subsidize the losses until he loses faith and/or decides to sell.

Subsidies, notwithstanding, the building and ownership are conspicuously absent. In fact, an owner with deep pockets could have owned this franchise four short years ago for a pittance, yet anyone with a modicum of financial prowess knew what a loser it would be even at the bargain basement price of $170MM. Fast forward to today, and your concept of "done right," who in their right mind would pay the NHL`s asking price and the cost of a new arena to remain in AZ? As of now, NOBODY!

Do all of the financial gymnastics you like, I think we would all be interested in hearing your formula of "done right!"

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05-20-2017, 04:11 PM
  #188
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Inspector Legend, you may want to put a few qualifiers on "done right." In 20 years, even with maxed out subsidies this dumpster fire has burned through every opportunity to do it right and failed. Both owner Barroway and the mighty Commissioner have labeled GRA and its location one of the primary reasons this franchise has failed to succeed. I am sure you agree with that assessment and therefore one of your qualifiers would be a new arena correct? To be successful in the new arena they will need to control 100% of the revenue streams correct? To do this they will likely need to pay the lions share of its cost correct? They will need to find an owner who is willing to fund a new arena and personally subsidize the losses until he loses faith and/or decides to sell.

Subsidies, notwithstanding, the building and ownership are conspicuously absent. In fact, an owner with deep pockets could have owned this franchise four short years ago for a pittance, yet anyone with a modicum of financial prowess knew what a loser it would be even at the bargain basement price of $170MM. Fast forward to today, and your concept of "done right," who in their right mind would pay the NHL`s asking price and the cost of a new arena to remain in AZ? As of now, NOBODY!

Do all of the financial gymnastics you like, I think we would all be interested in hearing your formula of "done right!"
True enough. Bettman himself has already excluded a portion of the Phoenix market saying it will never work in Glendale, no matter how hard he and his owners have tried🙄 Now, of course, he is only interested in ANY other district that would be foolish enough to build an arena for the team, turn over the keys and of course PAY the team in the neighbourhood of $15 million to stay there.

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05-20-2017, 04:21 PM
  #189
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A few of us inspectors would also have an issue with the above sentence.

Because you're painting the entire market with a broad brush based upon 20 years worth of Keystone Kops running things and we've had several lengthy discussions where if done right it could hold its own.
You are right that it has been the Keystone Kops for 20 years, but then a bigger question needs to be asked... and that is... why?

Why is it this franchise has only ever been able to land the questionable owners that it has? The very cynical might just say that it's because people, the people that a franchise like this needs, see it for what it really is.... and hence they stay away.

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05-20-2017, 04:23 PM
  #190
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True enough. Bettman himself has already excluded a portion of the Phoenix market saying it will never work in Glendale, no matter how hard he and his owners have tried�� Now, of course, he is only interested in ANY other district that would be foolish enough to build an arena for the team, turn over the keys and of course PAY the team in the neighbourhood of $15 million to stay there.
Exactly. Total Welfare Case & shamelessly somehow feeling both entitled to public monies and proud of it. "Thats how things work in the Big Leagues". Clearly Glendale had no understanding nor appreciation for that otherwise theyd have never have decided to opt out of their agreement with IceArizona.... Never mind that it was completely one-sided & suicidal. So without direct, massive public subsidies then no, the NHL doesnt work in Arizona. Not under the Bettman/Jacobs regime it doesnt.... It could have worked, should have but without rehashing the entire history of idiocy & incompetence well... here we are. And that ("the NHL doesnt work in Arizona") is therefore a valid statement.

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05-20-2017, 05:12 PM
  #191
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Exactly. Total Welfare Case & shamelessly somehow feeling both entitled to public monies and proud of it. "Thats how things work in the Big Leagues". Clearly Glendale had no understanding nor appreciation for that otherwise theyd have never have decided to opt out of their agreement with IceArizona.... Never mind that it was completely one-sided & suicidal. So without direct, massive public subsidies then no, the NHL doesnt work in Arizona. Not under the Bettman/Jacobs regime it doesnt.... It could have worked, should have but without rehashing the entire history of idiocy & incompetence well... here we are. And that ("the NHL doesnt work in Arizona") is therefore a valid statement.
Except for the last 20 years, so it has worked. When it doesn't work, they won't be in AZ any more. Major Pro sports franchises (NBA/NFL/MLB/Nascar/NHL) aren't leaving top 5 metro markets any time soon. Franchises are limited in numbers, only a few exist for cities or owners, if you want in the club. It's an asset appreciation play from a financial perspective, not a cash flow play. They'll figure out a way to stay, always have, and always will.

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05-20-2017, 05:56 PM
  #192
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Except for the last 20 years, so it has worked. When it doesn't work, they won't be in AZ any more. Major Pro sports franchises (NBA/NFL/MLB/Nascar/NHL) aren't leaving top 5 metro markets any time soon. Franchises are limited in numbers, only a few exist for cities or owners, if you want in the club. It's an asset appreciation play from a financial perspective, not a cash flow play. They'll figure out a way to stay, always have, and always will.
So with the cumulative losses in Az. How is the Coyotes mess ever going to be an asset play, particularly if they stay and continue to pile losses on losses?

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05-20-2017, 06:28 PM
  #193
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So with the cumulative losses in Az. How is the Coyotes mess ever going to be an asset play, particularly if they stay and continue to pile losses on losses?
As long as it is the ownership/NHL paying for the losses, I am all for it. The sight of a half full building with parts of the upper deck curtained off, looks good on Bettman and the league. As a poster said earlier, he believes that the team will never move and in that case this should be real fun to watch. So far though, I don't see investors lining up to purchase a piece of this amazing asset that he mentioned😀

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05-20-2017, 08:08 PM
  #194
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It's an asset appreciation play from a financial perspective, not a cash flow play. They'll figure out a way to stay, always have, and always will.
Unfortunately its long since past that this is anykind of "asset appreciation" game thats being played. On the contrary, were talking Chernobyl, full-on meltdown. Asset depreciation where is as is and they only have themselves to blame. Their "figuring out a way to stay" is wholly dependent upon the stupidity & blind generosity of now both State and an as yet unnamed municipality to provide them with the partial funding for a new facility and on-going subsidies in perpetuity and then when those arent enough to cover their losses they'll play the ransom game again, demand more "or else" and so it goes..... however, I would suggest that Glendale is this ownership & the Leagues Chernobyl as far as Arizona's concerned, that theyve so completely contaminated the environment that with the exception of the beyond misguided & entirely naive' Senator Worsley... Mormon Bob on a Mission.... no one touches any of this, not with a 50' Barge Pole. Political suicide to do so. So Im afraid I cant share in your optimism here cobra. Sure there are ways they could stay, patch things up with Glendale, some crazy man with more money than God appears out of nowhere but c'mon here. Do you seriously see that happening?

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05-20-2017, 08:50 PM
  #195
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Unfortunately its long since past that this is anykind of "asset appreciation" game thats being played. On the contrary, were talking Chernobyl, full-on meltdown. Asset depreciation where is as is and they only have themselves to blame. Their "figuring out a way to stay" is wholly dependent upon the stupidity & blind generosity of now both State and an as yet unnamed municipality to provide them with the partial funding for a new facility and on-going subsidies in perpetuity and then when those arent enough to cover their losses they'll play the ransom game again, demand more "or else" and so it goes..... however, I would suggest that Glendale is this ownership & the Leagues Chernobyl as far as Arizona's concerned, that theyve so completely contaminated the environment that with the exception of the beyond misguided & entirely naive' Senator Worsley... Mormon Bob on a Mission.... no one touches any of this, not with a 50' Barge Pole. Political suicide to do so. So Im afraid I cant share in your optimism here cobra. Sure there are ways they could stay, patch things up with Glendale, some crazy man with more money than God appears out of nowhere but c'mon here. Do you seriously see that happening?
There are 2 quite different viewpoints on this whole fiasco. One is that there is nothing that can save this team in this market 20 years of data shows that, and it is only a matter of time but on the other hand there is the viewpoint that the market is far too valuable to let go of and the team will be there no matter what. Neither of the opinions is entirely correct. The truth lies somewhere in between. The team will most likely move without some local intervention ($$$$$), no matter what the league says about the market(see Glendale before they got wise), but if there is a glimmer of hope that someone..anyone locally will pay the way, then the team will stay, no matter how it looks from the outside. Up to now, the league has been consistent about that.

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05-20-2017, 09:40 PM
  #196
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You are right that it has been the Keystone Kops for 20 years, but then a bigger question needs to be asked... and that is... why?

Why is it this franchise has only ever been able to land the questionable owners that it has? The very cynical might just say that it's because people, the people that a franchise like this needs, see it for what it really is.... and hence they stay away.
This. I've said it a bunch of times.

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05-20-2017, 10:44 PM
  #197
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Why is it this franchise has only ever been able to land the questionable owners that it has? The very cynical might just say that it's because people, the people that a franchise like this needs, see it for what it really is.... and hence they stay away.
Because the kind of person who is both super wealthy and also a fan of the local franchise doesn't exist here yet.

In Nashville, they had to get a conglomerate of local businesses together to pool their resources, buy the franchise, and put it on the right track. But Nashville was able to do this because it was THEIR TEAM from day one. It didn't arrive suddenly from another market - it was grown in-market - and for that reason there were enough people with skin in the game to make a play to save the team when it was on the brink.

Almost all of the money in Arizona that is held by sports fans is held by people with allegiances to other teams. Thus far, nobody has surfaced whose Coyotes fandom and wealth-building has coincided. There's either passion for the team or passion for money right now, and no comingling. In Buffalo, they had a Pegula around because the team has been there for 47 years, but he finally came around in 2010 after the league was forced to take over the team due to ownership issues.

This particular franchise in Arizona has been weaving like a vodka drunk down its path in the Valley, and pretty soon it's going to collapse. This franchise seems to be a total failure. But if you think that ALL franchises that put up their shingle in Arizona would be failures, you are wrong. You can have all the bias you want about deserts, traditions, and so forth, but the fact of the matter is that a National Hockey League team succeeds when it has good ownership, and it fails or goes to the edge of failure if the ownership is poor. The single exception to this rule that I have ever seen is Toronto, and that is due to the fact that the Maple Leafs have been around since 1917 and therefore have become a habit for the city that can't be broken by incompetence (as has been obvious since 1967).

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05-21-2017, 06:27 AM
  #198
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Because the kind of person who is both super wealthy and also a fan of the local franchise doesn't exist here yet.

In Nashville, they had to get a conglomerate of local businesses together to pool their resources, buy the franchise, and put it on the right track. But Nashville was able to do this because it was THEIR TEAM from day one. It didn't arrive suddenly from another market - it was grown in-market - and for that reason there were enough people with skin in the game to make a play to save the team when it was on the brink.

Almost all of the money in Arizona that is held by sports fans is held by people with allegiances to other teams. Thus far, nobody has surfaced whose Coyotes fandom and wealth-building has coincided. There's either passion for the team or passion for money right now, and no comingling. In Buffalo, they had a Pegula around because the team has been there for 47 years, but he finally came around in 2010 after the league was forced to take over the team due to ownership issues.

This particular franchise in Arizona has been weaving like a vodka drunk down its path in the Valley, and pretty soon it's going to collapse. This franchise seems to be a total failure. But if you think that ALL franchises that put up their shingle in Arizona would be failures, you are wrong. You can have all the bias you want about deserts, traditions, and so forth, but the fact of the matter is that a National Hockey League team succeeds when it has good ownership, and it fails or goes to the edge of failure if the ownership is poor. The single exception to this rule that I have ever seen is Toronto, and that is due to the fact that the Maple Leafs have been around since 1917 and therefore have become a habit for the city that can't be broken by incompetence (as has been obvious since 1967).
Sorry, I have a hard fime looking at it that way.

When Nashville was having their issues and the Basilee attempt, the franchise played there for 9 years at the time. Then Phoenix went through BK and their own bout wiith Basilee, the franchise played 13 years.

There comes a time when a maret embraces a team as theirs. Denver thought of the Avalanche as thejir team right from.the get do. The first cup wasn't guaranteed upon arrival and they won it at the conclusion of their first season.

Maybe the alleagnces to other team weather back from their pre transplant home or existing teams in the market is the bigger factor. Even then a wealthy committed group would still have to see the value and build it long term even with short term losses along the way.

The group in Nashville didn't create 'Smashville Hockey' right off the back and they had their own learning curve to build it to what it is today.

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05-21-2017, 08:08 AM
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05-21-2017, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
Sorry, I have a hard fime looking at it that way.

When Nashville was having their issues and the Basilee attempt, the franchise played there for 9 years at the time. Then Phoenix went through BK and their own bout wiith Basilee, the franchise played 13 years.

There comes a time when a maret embraces a team as theirs. Denver thought of the Avalanche as thejir team right from.the get do. The first cup wasn't guaranteed upon arrival and they won it at the conclusion of their first season.

Maybe the alleagnces to other team weather back from their pre transplant home or existing teams in the market is the bigger factor. Even then a wealthy committed group would still have to see the value and build it long term even with short term losses along the way.

The group in Nashville didn't create 'Smashville Hockey' right off the back and they had their own learning curve to build it to what it is today.
uh, Denver didn't claim the Nordiques/Avalanche, MG, did you forget the New Jersey Devils aka the Kansas City Scouts, aka Colorado Rockies (no, not the Baseball version, either), that was more Comsat/Kroenke because it also involved the arena and the Nuggets, truly, since Kroenke expanded his empire and added the Rams, to a lesser extent, the Chargers, and redeveloping Hollywood Park, where exactly does the Avalanche/Nuggets fit in that portfolio, once Inglewood gets going by 2020...Where will those franchises be long-term, begs that ?, now that cross-ownership rules not in the same market have been tweaked,

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