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OT MLB history of expansion

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Old
05-19-2017, 02:49 PM
  #26
Dirty Old Man
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
So when their home state Kansas City Athletics moved to Oakland in 1967, influential US Senator Fife Symington and later, Sen. Tom Eagleton threatened to get a law passed to remove baseball's anti-trust exemption if baseball didn't either block the move or get Kansas City another team.
You probably meant his cousin Stuart there? (Fife was governor of Arizona)

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05-19-2017, 08:29 PM
  #27
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The Tip Tops were Brooklyn's entry in the Federal League. The Bridegrooms eventually became the Dodgers.

What I think would be interesting is if somebody had the patience (and time) to do one of these for each of the present affiliated Minor Leagues. It'd be interesting to see the International League again when it was truly International, for instance, or the Hawaii Islanders pilgrimage from California to Hawaii to Colorado or the Southern League's abandonment of the Carolinas to become the League it is now centerer around TN, MS, AL, and FL.
Good idea. I remember my mind being blown recently learning that the Eastern League had multiple teams in Quebec during the 70s.

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05-19-2017, 08:58 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto View Post
The Tip Tops were Brooklyn's entry in the Federal League. The Bridegrooms eventually became the Dodgers.

What I think would be interesting is if somebody had the patience (and time) to do one of these for each of the present affiliated Minor Leagues. It'd be interesting to see the International League again when it was truly International, for instance, or the Hawaii Islanders pilgrimage from California to Hawaii to Colorado or the Southern League's abandonment of the Carolinas to become the League it is now centerer around TN, MS, AL, and FL.
I know the Bridegooms became the Dodgers and the Beaneaters became the Braves.
Southern League had the Carolina Mudcats recently. I don't know why they are in it anymore.
Havana Cuba also had a minor league team once the Sugar Kings in the international league.

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05-21-2017, 01:31 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
I know the Bridegooms became the Dodgers and the Beaneaters became the Braves.
Southern League had the Carolina Mudcats recently. I don't know why they are in it anymore.
Havana Cuba also had a minor league team once the Sugar Kings in the international league.
Havana being in the IL was where my comment about the IL truly being International stemmed from (well Havana along with Ottawa, Winnipeg, Toronto, and Montreal).

As for why the Mudcats stepped down from Double-A to High-A, travel got to be too much both from a cost perspective and a scheduling perspective, especially after Wilmington, NC and Greenville, SC lost their Southern League clubs. Part of the agreement between MLB and MiLB is that if a team has to travel a certain distance by bus, they have to have a rest day. The MiLB team can apply for a waiver, but the problem is with the closest team to Zebulon being the Tennessee Smokies (365 miles away), the Mudcats were routinely having to do that to the point where the Mudcats were being told they wouldn't be getting any more waivers.

At the same time, Pensacola, FL had a new stadium and owners who were wanting to move from Indy ball to the affiliated minor leagues, so they offered Steve Bryant an offer he couldn't refuse. Bryant then turned around and bought the High-A Kinston Indians and relocated them to Zebulon and voila - you're now in the Carolina League where your farthest drive (Wilmington, DE) is about the same distance as what you were driving to Tennessee.

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05-21-2017, 02:41 PM
  #30
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When baseball first expanded in 1961 it was a league issue and the American League wanted a team in Los Angeles which became the Angels. The other expansion team (Washington) was born out of racism.

The owner of the Washington Senators wanted to move to Minnesota because the demographics in the Twin Cities were more to his liking so the American League allowed him to move to Minnesota in 1961 and a new expansion team was granted to Washington. The Red Sox who owned the Minnesota territory (AAA) were also looking at moving as Tom Yawkey saw no future in Fenway Park.

Both leagues expanded to stop the Continental League from joining MLB.

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The Continental League was the idea of attorney William Shea, proposed in November 1958. On July 27, 1959, the new league was formally announced, with teams in Denver, Houston, Minneapolis–St. Paul, New York City, and Toronto. The name of the league was said to have been the suggestion of Colorado senator Edwin C. Johnson.

Representing the team owners at the announcement were Bob Howsam (Denver), Craig F. Cullinan, Jr. (Houston), Wheelock Whitney Jr. (Minneapolis–St. Paul), Dwight F. Davis, Jr., who was representing the group headed by Joan Whitney Payson (New York), and Jack Kent Cooke (Toronto). Owners in each city had agreed to pay US$50,000 to the league and committed to a capital investment of $2.5 million, not including stadium costs. A minimum seating capacity of 35,000 was established by the league for the venues in which its teams would play.

At least three other teams were expected to be in place before play began in 1961, and the league said it had received applications from 10 cities. The three that were later selected were Atlanta, Buffalo (backed by Robert O. Swados), and Dallas/Ft. Worth. Former Dodgers president Branch Rickey was named league president. Appearing in that capacity as a guest on the live network broadcast of What's My Line on Sunday, September 13, 1959, he pronounced the new league as "Inevitable as tomorrow morning."





On February 18, 1960, Rickey and Cooke announced an opening date of April 18, 1961

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05-21-2017, 05:28 PM
  #31
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That's really cool. I liked when it got into the 70s and all the logos corresponded the the baseball cards I collected.

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05-26-2017, 10:35 AM
  #32
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MLB basically did the same thing to strangle the Federal League in its cradle. the Chicago Whale owner was allowed to buy the Cubs and merged the franchises, and Wrigley Field is the last surviving Federal League ballpark. it wasn;t until the 60s that MLB classed the Federal League as a major league, and counted wins = losses and hits for players who played in that league. This is unlike the NFl treats the AAFc, which spawned teamed like the Browns, 49ers and Bills, yet the 4 years of records in the league arent fully in league records and states, unlike the AFL.

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05-26-2017, 02:06 PM
  #33
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That's a cool video, but one thing to keep in mind though is that baseball wasn't exclusive to the Northeast for a long time, just the Majors.

There have been minor leagues and teams all over the US with Triple-A teams in cities like SF and LA long before they got the Giants and Dodgers.

Also Spring training leagues delivered Major League Baseball to Florida and Arizona before those states got MLB teams too.

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Here's an NHL version.

http://dai.ly/x5li97h
That's a cool video too, but the constant close-up and zooming around of the map is annoying. They just need to place the camera high above to see the entire continent and this video would be perfect.

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05-29-2017, 09:51 AM
  #34
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You probably meant his cousin Stuart there? (Fife was governor of Arizona)
You're correct. Sen. Stuart Symington helped press for another franchise for his state after the KC Athletics moved. Thanks for the clarification.

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05-31-2017, 02:35 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
Some franchises figured it would be better to own an entire market than to split one from a rival league. Starting in 1953, there were major franchise moves:

1953 - Boston Braves to Milwaukee
1954 - St. Louis Browns to Baltimore, becoming the Orioles
1955 - Philadelphia A's to Kansas City
1958 - Brooklyn Dodgers to LA and New York Giants to SF
I was pleased to learn that the current Baltimore Orioles were not the first baseball team with that name.

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05-31-2017, 04:53 PM
  #36
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Can you provide details?

Also, interestingly, someone here said the lack of franchise movement is a RESULT of the exemption, because no owner can sue the MLB in the way Davis did to the NFL.
Mainly because the NLRB stated that baseball fell under labor law, which led to CBAs and free agency. MLB's exemption is most salient in dealing with players, so when the NLRB went around it and allowed the players to collectively bargain, it undercut the vast majority of the advantages.

Here's a (decent) article on the subject: http://www.antitrustinstitute.org/si...lExemption.pdf

Edit: Although it does still play a role in franchise movement, I think there are certainly cognizable arguments that even absent the antitrust rules, the MLB is far less likely to have a lot of franchise movement than the other leagues. NBA and NHL arenas are far more multi-purpose than baseball stadiums, and football stadiums are a *bit* more (being easily usable for baseball and soccer, but less useful as concert venues and the like than NBA/NHL arenas).


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05-31-2017, 06:58 PM
  #37
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It has had an effect in franchise movement because a team cannot sue the league as the Raiders did. Outside of the decade and half of movement in the late 50's and 60's, baseball has seen very little team movement. Only the Expos have moved in over 40 years.
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Can you provide details?

Also, interestingly, someone here said the lack of franchise movement is a RESULT of the exemption, because no owner can sue the MLB in the way Davis did to the NFL.
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
Congress, however, can pass a law any time to take that exemption away. So when their home state Kansas City Athletics moved to Oakland in 1967, influential US Senator Fife Symington and later, Sen. Tom Eagleton threatened to get a law passed to remove baseball's anti-trust exemption if baseball didn't either block the move or get Kansas City another team.

Not wanting to lose the valuable exemption, baseball quickly expanded with the KC Royals just two years later, in 1969.

The successful use of that threat has led other politicians to use it to either get a team replaced or to slow momentum for a move. Washington state politicians made threats after the Seattle Pilots moved to Milwaukee, and not long afterward, got the expansion Mariners. It's probably no accident that it's posted above that only Montreal has not had a team replaced, there being no political pull from Senators to stand up for Montreal's fans by threatening to change a US law that baseball doesn't want changed. That's really not fair to those fans, which is one reason I hope qhen baseball next expands, it chooses Montreal as one of the cities.
And don’t forget the Tampa Bay (Devil) Rays.

Tampa built Tropicana Field (formerly the SunCoast Dome and former home of the Lightning) waaaaaaaay back in the late 80s to try and lure an MLB team. They almost got the White Sox, then they GOT the San Francisco Giants. But MLB vetoed the sale because Oakland was so good back then, MLB feared that having the massive Northern California region to themselves would create a dominant financial force. And finally, Tampa got bypassed in the 1993 expansion for… Miami.

So the Florida politicians called for hearings on MLB’s Anti-Trust exemption…

And MLB immediately commissioned a committee to explore expansion again. Like, literally the next day. They named George Steinbrenner (a Tampa resident) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox owner who almost moved to Tampa; and business parter of Jerry Colangelo) to it.

Shockingly, that committee recommended immediate expansion to 30 teams (a number which doesn’t really work in baseball) to Tampa Bay and Phoenix (where Jerry Colangelo owned the PHX Suns!).

Every problem in the history of baseball except the DH is the fault of the San Francisco Giants, FYI.

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05-31-2017, 08:18 PM
  #38
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Two more things on the whole “MLB teams don’t move that often” thing.

#1 - It takes a big population and financial commitment to support 81 home games in a facility that can really only be used for baseball. Which is why the league has been so stagnant on going to 32 teams when they’ve needed to go get to 32 since 1993.

#2 - A primary reason for stability was the origin of MLB as independent leagues, and the working agreements that the NL & AL started in 1903, which created the World Series and stability.


The NL, Federal League, American Association, Players League, Western League… all these leagues were fighting for talent, and for top dog status. It was a free for all of undercutting and player stealing, and franchises/leagues starting and folding.

Around 1890, the NL was clearly the best and had the monopoly as “the Major League.” But then hit attendance and financial problems with 12 teams. They decided to cut down to eight teams, eliminating four. The Western League pounced, added teams in 3 of the 4 cities that lost NL teams, and renamed themselves the American League.

Both leagues started planning on “How can we win and become the monopoly of Major League Baseball?” And the easiest path was “Instead of FIGHTING for a monopoly, let’s just declare that we SHARE ONE ALREADY.” They created the World Series in 1903, which left every other league on the outside looking in. But it also created an understanding for franchise numbers and locations that the two leagues wouldn’t step to each other.

And that worked perfectly until the late 50s. I’m so glad Fenway brought up the Continental League, because the 1960s expansion is the perfect example of the agreement in action.

While the NHL, NBA and NFL had all-out WARS with the WHA, ABA and AFL, all of which led to mergers; Baseball didn’t have that problem. The Continental League wasn’t ever a war. It was a ploy. Bill Shea was hired to bring NL baseball back to New York. He asked a couple of teams about relocation and found no one interested (Think about THAT for a second (Owners were being offered a new stadium in New York City and said “no Thanks”).

Shea tried to get the NL to expand. The NL said No, not interested. The reason for both was the AL-NL agreement. It didn’t have “rules” for franchise location or expansion, it basically just said “We have our 8, you have your 8. We won’t fight each other.” The agreement was horribly out of date, but it WAS WORKING, so neither side wanted to jeopardize the AL-NL peace. Moving a team to New York could ignite a full-out baseball war between the AL-NL again.

But because Shea knew expansion meant he’d need a partner for expansion, he had already called around to a number of cities. He had the groundwork already done, so the last ditch effort was the CBL:

Market Size in 1960.
1. New York
(1 CA) Toronto
6. Dallas-Ft. Worth
8. Houston
10. Minneapolis-St. Paul
21. Buffalo
24. Denver
25. Atlanta

The CBL forced the AL-NL to sit down and talk about their future of working together instead of just keeping the fragile peace the same. To destroy the CBL, the NL & AL had to add teams in the strongest of those eight cities. But New York was a problem, because the Yankees were already in the market.

So they cut a deal on that, but in the process, re-wrote the League Agreement to cover future expansion/franchise relocation.
- The NL got New York so the AL would get Los Angeles
- One more team added in each league for 10 each (Houston to NL; Washington moved to Minneapolis-St. Paul, and Washington got an expansion team).
- Future expansion requires 3/4 of the OTHER LEAGUE to approve.

Then the Braves moved to Atlanta.
Kansas City moved to Oakland. KC threatened anti-trust hearings and got the Royals — which meant the Seattle Pilots joined before they were ready, then moved to Milwaukee; which mean they had to put a team back in Seattle, which finally got a team in Toronto. While that was happening Washington moved to Dallas-Ft. Worth.

Within 17 years of the CBL, 6 of the 8 markets had new teams. Denver got theirs in 1993. Only Buffalo never got one.

The NL-AL have had a "similar region, but not really direct competition" thing going ever since:
AL had NY Yankees, NL got the Mets
NL had LA Dodgers, AL got LA Angels
NL got Houston, AL got Dallas
NL had St Louis, AL got Kansas City
NL had San Francisco, AL got Oakland
NL had Montreal, AL got Toronto
NL had Miami, AL got Tampa
AL had Baltimore, NL got Washington


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05-31-2017, 08:27 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
Montreal is the only city in North America that once had an MLB but currently doesn't. Anti trust rules keeps teams from moving at will. Only two franchises have played in 3 cities Athletics (Philadelphia, Kansas City, Oakland) and Braves (Boston, Milwaukee, Atlanta)
Very few relocations in baseball history.
Giants to SF
Dodgers to LA
St Louis Browns to Baltimore Orioles
Washington Senators to Minnesota
Washington Senators 2 to Dallas
Seattle Pilots to Milwaukee
Montreal Expos to Washington
Only 6 of the original 16 teams have moved 5 of those 6 were second teams in the city. 3 expansion teams have moved and one expansion team was Washington that never lost a team until the Senators moved to Texas.
Baseball has the strongest union in all sports and yet players don't have the power of team location.
A minor nitpick, there are actually three teams that have played in three cities during the modern baseball era. The two you mentioned, and the current Orioles went Milwaukee Brewers (1901), St. Louis Browns (1902-1953), Orioles (1954-present).

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05-31-2017, 11:02 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
Two more things on the whole “MLB teams don’t move that often” thing.

#1 - It takes a big population and financial commitment to support 81 home games in a facility that can really only be used for baseball. Which is why the league has been so stagnant on going to 32 teams when they’ve needed to go get to 32 since 1993.

#2 - A primary reason for stability was the origin of MLB as independent leagues, and the working agreements that the NL & AL started in 1903, which created the World Series and stability.


The NL, Federal League, American Association, Players League, Western League… all these leagues were fighting for talent, and for top dog status. It was a free for all of undercutting and player stealing, and franchises/leagues starting and folding.

Around 1890, the NL was clearly the best and had the monopoly as “the Major League.” But then hit attendance and financial problems with 12 teams. They decided to cut down to eight teams, eliminating four. The Western League pounced, added teams in 3 of the 4 cities that lost NL teams, and renamed themselves the American League.

Both leagues started planning on “How can we win and become the monopoly of Major League Baseball?” And the easiest path was “Instead of FIGHTING for a monopoly, let’s just declare that we SHARE ONE ALREADY.” They created the World Series in 1903, which left every other league on the outside looking in. But it also created an understanding for franchise numbers and locations that the two leagues wouldn’t step to each other.

And that worked perfectly until the late 50s. I’m so glad Fenway brought up the Continental League, because the 1960s expansion is the perfect example of the agreement in action.

While the NHL, NBA and NFL had all-out WARS with the WHA, ABA and AFL, all of which led to mergers; Baseball didn’t have that problem. The Continental League wasn’t ever a war. It was a ploy. Bill Shea was hired to bring NL baseball back to New York. He asked a couple of teams about relocation and found no one interested (Think about THAT for a second (Owners were being offered a new stadium in New York City and said “no Thanks”).

Shea tried to get the NL to expand. The NL said No, not interested. The reason for both was the AL-NL agreement. It didn’t have “rules” for franchise location or expansion, it basically just said “We have our 8, you have your 8. We won’t fight each other.” The agreement was horribly out of date, but it WAS WORKING, so neither side wanted to jeopardize the AL-NL peace. Moving a team to New York could ignite a full-out baseball war between the AL-NL again.

But because Shea knew expansion meant he’d need a partner for expansion, he had already called around to a number of cities. He had the groundwork already done, so the last ditch effort was the CBL:

Market Size in 1960.
1. New York
(1 CA) Toronto
6. Dallas-Ft. Worth
8. Houston
10. Minneapolis-St. Paul
21. Buffalo
24. Denver
25. Atlanta

The CBL forced the AL-NL to sit down and talk about their future of working together instead of just keeping the fragile peace the same. To destroy the CBL, the NL & AL had to add teams in the strongest of those eight cities. But New York was a problem, because the Yankees were already in the market.

So they cut a deal on that, but in the process, re-wrote the League Agreement to cover future expansion/franchise relocation.
- The NL got New York so the AL would get Los Angeles
- One more team added in each league for 10 each (Houston to NL; Washington moved to Minneapolis-St. Paul, and Washington got an expansion team).
- Future expansion requires 3/4 of the OTHER LEAGUE to approve.

Then the Braves moved to Atlanta.
Kansas City moved to Oakland. KC threatened anti-trust hearings and got the Royals — which meant the Seattle Pilots joined before they were ready, then moved to Milwaukee; which mean they had to put a team back in Seattle, which finally got a team in Toronto. While that was happening Washington moved to Dallas-Ft. Worth.

Within 17 years of the CBL, 6 of the 8 markets had new teams. Denver got theirs in 1993. Only Buffalo never got one.

The NL-AL have had a "similar region, but not really direct competition" thing going ever since:
AL had NY Yankees, NL got the Mets
NL had LA Dodgers, AL got LA Angels
NL got Houston, AL got Dallas
NL had St Louis, AL got Kansas City
NL had San Francisco, AL got Oakland
NL had Montreal, AL got Toronto
NL had Miami, AL got Tampa
AL had Baltimore, NL got Washington
except, due to realignment, Milwaukee and Houston basically switched leagues, before the current alignment there never was a central division in either league...

who remembers the 2 division alignment when Milwaukee was in the AL East, AND EVERYONE KNOWS TOO well how the Red Wings fought alignment and MI is in the Eastern time zone.

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05-31-2017, 11:13 PM
  #41
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except, due to realignment, Milwaukee and Houston basically switched leagues, before the current alignment there never was a central division in either league...

who remembers the 2 division alignment when Milwaukee was in the AL East, AND EVERYONE KNOWS TOO well how the Red Wings fought alignment and MI is in the Eastern time zone.
You are right about Milwaukee and Houston basically switching league, HUTCH.

However, there was a formal merger which occurred...maybe 10 years ago or something.

At first, when the expansion went to 30 teams, it was thought that each league (AL or NL) needed an even number of teams, for scheduling reasons, so Milwaukee moved to the NL. Selig said, "It's an NL town...." I think he was referring to the Braves being there long ago.

Then, a couple years ago, the loud voices said, "That's not fair playoff odds... 16 vs 14" And, so, Houston was moved back, and interleague play went to season -long.

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06-06-2017, 02:51 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
except, due to realignment, Milwaukee and Houston basically switched leagues, before the current alignment there never was a central division in either league...

who remembers the 2 division alignment when Milwaukee was in the AL East, AND EVERYONE KNOWS TOO well how the Red Wings fought alignment and MI is in the Eastern time zone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
You are right about Milwaukee and Houston basically switching league, HUTCH.

However, there was a formal merger which occurred...maybe 10 years ago or something.

At first, when the expansion went to 30 teams, it was thought that each league (AL or NL) needed an even number of teams, for scheduling reasons, so Milwaukee moved to the NL. Selig said, "It's an NL town...." I think he was referring to the Braves being there long ago.

Then, a couple years ago, the loud voices said, "That's not fair playoff odds... 16 vs 14" And, so, Houston was moved back, and interleague play went to season -long.

Yeah, I was going through the history of the NL & AL being separate and independent. It wasn’t until the Selig administration that “Major League Baseball” turned into ONE LEAGUE and not two.

Milwaukee switched leagues because after Florida politicians went after MLB’s anti-trust exemption following the Marlins expansion over Tampa and the SF Giants to Tampa move being killed; MLB hastily expanded to appease Tampa Bay without really thinking it through, AND Jerry Colangelo wanted Arizona in the National League.

Because they needed him, they said okay. The AL was like “Hey, we want one of the new teams” and it was decided: Arizona to the NL, TB to the AL. Then the schedule makers said “WTF, not possible.”

MLB had already voted on a six-division alignment for TV start-time purposes BEFORE they expanded to 30 teams (1994 was the first year: the Atlanta Braves were second to the Montreal Expos when the strike hit. “Atlanta won 14 straight division titles” is a lie; March 1995 was when they announced TB/ARZ).

1994 Alignment:
ALE: BAL, BOS, TOR, NYY, DET
ALC: MIN, CWS, MIL, KC, CLE
ALW: SEA, OAK, LAA, TEX

NLE: ATL, FLA, NYM, PHI, MON
NLC: PIT, CIN, STL, CHC, HOU
NLW: LAD, SD, SF, COL

And thus began an all-out war in MLB over re-alignment for the next THREE YEARS.

Radical realignment by geography was proposedAL would have all ETZ teams and the others would be in the NL). But EVERY owner had the right to veto a league change.

The Players wanted smaller divisions: 5-5-4 AL and 4-4-4-4 in the NL.

Finally, with the schedule makers saying “Tell us what to do, NOW, or we won’t have a schedule for 1998” they decided on moving one AL team to the NL, and gave Kansas City first dibs. KC declined, so Selig moved the Brewers to the NL (as his family owned them).


And of course, because they had spent three years talking about the pros of radical realignment (aka games between rivals like the Mets-Yankees, Cubs-White Sox, Giants-A’s, and Dodgers-Angels in the regular season in front of sell-out crowds) the owners saw dollar signs and voted for interleague play BEFORE they reached an alignment solution.

So then when Houston was for sale, and there was some grumbling about the uneven leagues (I think it was really about the schedule matrix. Scheduling the NL Central/NL West vs AL Central and AL West for interleague was murder), they saw an opportunity and pounced:

A. Because each team was already playing six interleague series, there was already more than enough interleague series within the schedule model for year-round interleague without adding more games.

B. The fans had gotten used to interleague over the last 17 years, so they could go to year-round interleague without fans getting too upset.

C. They could avoid the league-switching veto right of each team by telling any new Houston owner “we’ll ONLY approve you as owner if you move to the AL West.” Which made Texas VERY happy, because they now got 13 more games in the Central time zone than they had before.

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