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Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 2016-17 Part XXI

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Old
06-04-2017, 01:25 PM
  #976
Ivan13
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Originally Posted by Goulet17 View Post
I think it is more of fundamental disagreement regarding the strategy of a trade with the Isles than the perceived value of the package.

Would de Haan or Hamonic improve the Avs defense now? Yes, undoubtedly.

Would it result in improvement on the ice? Perhaps a little, but the Avs will still not be a playoff team IMO.

Will either player be a core player in the future as the Avs come out of a rebuilding mode? I don't think that they would, which means that you are staking all of your hopes on the Isles included prospect that will be a a tier or two below their better prospects and a mid-first round draft pick in what is perceived to be a weaker draft.

I would rather go with a strictly futures package than pick up a player that is close in age or older than Duchene and will not be a core piece in a few years.
Very well put!

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06-04-2017, 02:21 PM
  #977
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Here's the link to the segment with Lavoie and Jean:

http://www.tvasports.ca/2017/06/03/l...sses-de-la-lnh

Who speaks French?

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06-04-2017, 02:32 PM
  #978
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I'm not at all certain a Duchene trade will be the thing that solves the Avalanche blue line problem. I think that only comes via draft/development.

Which of course is stressful, given 20+ years of history in this regard.

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06-04-2017, 02:38 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Here's the link to the segment with Lavoie and Jean:

http://www.tvasports.ca/2017/06/03/l...sses-de-la-lnh

Who speaks French?
Nothing new Matt is on the market.

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06-04-2017, 02:39 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Here's the link to the segment with Lavoie and Jean:

http://www.tvasports.ca/2017/06/03/l...sses-de-la-lnh

Who speaks French?
every player that will play next year with Las Vegas will have a bonus of 16000$

There's some player that have a good chance to be traded because they don't fit with their current team anymore.

Jordan Everle and Matt Duchene are two of those players.

They talked about Swiss players, with Nico hishier that have a chance to be the first LHJMQ player to be draft first overall.

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06-04-2017, 02:41 PM
  #981
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Thanks, yeah doesn't sound like much new there.

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06-04-2017, 02:43 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Goulet17 View Post
I think it is more of fundamental disagreement regarding the strategy of a trade with the Isles than the perceived value of the package.

Would de Haan or Hamonic improve the Avs defense now? Yes, undoubtedly.

Would it result in improvement on the ice? Perhaps a little, but the Avs will still not be a playoff team IMO.

Will either player be a core player in the future as the Avs come out of a rebuilding mode? I don't think that they would, which means that you are staking all of your hopes on the Isles included prospect that will be a a tier or two below their better prospects and a mid-first round draft pick in what is perceived to be a weaker draft.

I would rather go with a strictly futures package than pick up a player that is close in age or older than Duchene and will not be a core piece in a few years.
Well said.

As a fanbase it seems we are still somewhat divided on continuing to rebuild for 2-3 years (which I prefer)vs getting better now.

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06-04-2017, 03:01 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Here's the link to the segment with Lavoie and Jean:

http://www.tvasports.ca/2017/06/03/l...sses-de-la-lnh

Who speaks French?
The most interesting thing in that interview was that all three of Brodin, Scandella and Dumba are actively on the market as we speak. Wild GM doesn't want to lose them for nothing at the ED. He also said that he probably won't trade them all so I'm not sure how that works exactly. (If they trade one, they'll still lose one to the ED so what's the point?)

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06-04-2017, 03:12 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Balthazar View Post
The most interesting thing in that interview was that all three of Brodin, Scandella and Dumba are actively on the market as we speak. Wild GM doesn't want to lose them for nothing at the ED. He also said that he probably won't trade them all so I'm not sure how that works exactly. (If they trade one, they'll still lose one to the ED so what's the point?)
Yeah, it's a tough situation for the Wild. It depends on what they get back. Scandella isn't a huge loss on his own, Dumba should have good value...

But it's gonna cripple their defensive depth if they get rid of two and don't get a defenseman in return. And I don't see anyone trading for a veteran D and giving back a defenseman who would be ready to fill one of those spots for the Wild.

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06-04-2017, 03:25 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by UncleRisto View Post
Yeah, it's a tough situation for the Wild. It depends on what they get back. Scandella isn't a huge loss on his own, Dumba should have good value...

But it's gonna cripple their defensive depth if they get rid of two and don't get a defenseman in return. And I don't see anyone trading for a veteran D and giving back a defenseman who would be ready to fill one of those spots for the Wild.
Bleh. Look at my work as Mild GM. Suter, Brodie, Brodin, Scandella top four. Sanhein 3rd pairing. All you need is skillz!

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06-04-2017, 03:34 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by UncleRisto View Post
Yeah, it's a tough situation for the Wild. It depends on what they get back. Scandella isn't a huge loss on his own, Dumba should have good value...

But it's gonna cripple their defensive depth if they get rid of two and don't get a defenseman in return. And I don't see anyone trading for a veteran D and giving back a defenseman who would be ready to fill one of those spots for the Wild.
It's not that big of a trouble as is. They will lose Dumba or Zucker. It's going to be tough to not lose anyone. I guess they could package Zucker, Dumba and Scandella for a young (quite good) top-4 that does not need protection.

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06-04-2017, 03:45 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Metallo View Post
It's not that big of a trouble as is. They will lose Dumba or Zucker. It's going to be tough to not lose anyone. I guess they could package Zucker, Dumba and Scandella for a young (quite good) top-4 that does not need protection.
Yeah but if they do want to trade someone, it becomes tricky.

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06-04-2017, 03:52 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by OMackDuch View Post
every player that will play next year with Las Vegas will have a bonus of 16000$

There's some player that have a good chance to be traded because they don't fit with their current team anymore.

Jordan Everle and Matt Duchene are two of those players.

They talked about Swiss players, with Nico hishier that have a chance to be the first LHJMQ player to be draft first overall.
That last part must be a translation issue, he'll be the first Swiss player drafted #1 OA, not the first player from the Q to be drafted #1

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06-04-2017, 03:56 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Goulet17 View Post
I think it is more of fundamental disagreement regarding the strategy of a trade with the Isles than the perceived value of the package.

Would de Haan or Hamonic improve the Avs defense now? Yes, undoubtedly.

Would it result in improvement on the ice? Perhaps a little, but the Avs will still not be a playoff team IMO.

Will either player be a core player in the future as the Avs come out of a rebuilding mode? I don't think that they would, which means that you are staking all of your hopes on the Isles included prospect that will be a a tier or two below their better prospects and a mid-first round draft pick in what is perceived to be a weaker draft.

I would rather go with a strictly futures package than pick up a player that is close in age or older than Duchene and will not be a core piece in a few years.

I mean, not really. If you go and look at my post history you'll actually see that I would much, much rather go scorched Earth on this team and rebuild right from the bottom again. That includes selling all of Duchene, Landeskog, and Barrie. It's not a matter of me wanting us to get better next year or anything like that. I want us to be awful again next year to give us an opportunity at landing Dahlin or Svechnikov.

Just because CDH is already 26 doesn't mean he cant still be highly useful both during and after the rebuild. He entered the league late so its not like he already has a lot of mileage on him. And Dmen of his style are able to play longer anyway. If we entered a full 4-5 year rebuild he'd still only be ~30 coming out of it and would have 4-5 good year of play left in him still while our window is fully open.

We get our core pieces through the draft. The pieces we get from a Duchene trade and a potential Barrie/Landeskog trade are the pieces we hope can turn out to be good complimentary guys to the future core that will help to fill out the roster extremely well later on, not become the core themselves. Look at the Leafs and the Kessel return. None of those pieces were expected to be core pieces, but instead complimentary guys that help boost the overall depth and strength of the roster. Same thing with the CBJ Jeff Carter trade. Jack Johnson wasn't brought into be a core member, but a complimentary Top 4D. And again with Jordan Staal.




If it were strictly up to me, this is the way I would go.

1. You trade Duchene for CDH + MDC(Or if people prefer lets say Beauvillier instead) + #15. A comparable trade would be something like Murray + Milano + CBJ 1st. Or Ceci + White + OTT 1st.

2. You trade Barrie + a small piece to EDM for Eberle + Caleb Jones + EDM 1st. Again a similar trade could be something like Jakob Vrana + WSH 1st

3. You trade Landeskog to Boston for Carlo + DeBrusk + BOS 1st. And another similar package could be Manson + Max Jones + 2018 1st.




All of a sudden you have 4 1st rounders this year. You pick up 2 steady Top 4D that are already established at the NHL level and are young enough that in 3-4 years they're still great Top 4D for you, if not even better in Carlo's state. You also take a flier on a guy like Eberle and hope that he can bounce back to become a quality Top 6 player that can either be a complimentary piece to the core later on, or you can move him again for more picks/prospects later on.


With those 4 1sts and pick #32, you could come out of the draft with say Heiskanen at #4, Suzuki at #15(NYI 1st), Poehling at #18(BOSt 1st), Brannstrom at #24(EDM 1st), and Oettinger at #32(Our own 2nd).

All of a sudden we have arguably the deepest prospect pool in the entire league because along with the 4 1st rounders we just drafted. We also added Caleb Jones, Jake DeBrusk, and Anthony Beauvillier to that prospect pool as well. None of them are elite prospects, but the two forwards have Top 6 potential and Caleb Jones has Top 4 D potential.



Now all of a sudden, you already have a decent Top 4 Defense that includes EJ, Zadorov, Carlo, and CDH. But you've also got Heiskanen, Jones, Brannstrom to go along with Meloche, and Bigras in the system. That's now 5 Dmen with definite Top 4 potential, and 2-3 with Top 2 potential. Between all 5 of them all you need is one to become a Top pairing guy and you've got an elite Defense on your hands.



And the forward group still consists of the new core around Mackinnon, Rantanen, and Jost. But now you also have Suzuki, Poehling, DeBrusk, Beauvillier, Compher, Greer, and Beaudin.


For next season, you sign 2-3 free agents on 1 year deals with the intentions of trading them at the deadline, just like what Toronto just did 2 years ago. And you go into the season with a lineup something like this:


Andrighetto - Mackinnon - Rantanen
Jost - Soderberg - Eberle
Nieto - Grigorenko - Comeau
Colborne - Nate Thompson - Korpikoski


Zadorov - EJ
CDH - Carlo
Babeiro - Mironov


Varlamov/Nillsson(Lose Pickard in expansion draft)


The team would still be bad next year because we would've moved out a lot of our current forward talent, so we'd likely be looking at another Top 5 pick next year, where you could potentially draft Dahlin or Svechnikov as another true core piece for the team. You also eventually look to move Varlamov(If he can rebound to form and gain some decent value) and EJ as well, since neither of them will be effective when the rebuild is over in 3-4 years.




We'd have an insanely deep prospect pool, and out of all of those prospects all we would need is for 1 or 2 of them to exceed expectations and become a true #1D or an elite winger, and all of a sudden we've got a great new core and a tonne of complimentary pieces to fill out the rest of the roster with.


It's exactly what the Leafs have basically just done, and what the Sabres are in the process of doing.


Last edited by Pierce Hawthorne: 06-04-2017 at 04:07 PM.
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Old
06-04-2017, 04:01 PM
  #990
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Pretty sure Carlo and McAvoy are staying put, but I see your point. Having 4 first rounders would be unreal, though I'd pick different players and make different trades.

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06-04-2017, 04:09 PM
  #991
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What about trading duchene for vegas #1 defense pick + something? i looked at a sports net mock expansion and if we could get duchene + taking soderberg for brodin, i think i would do it

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06-04-2017, 04:10 PM
  #992
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@Pierce:

To me wanting CDH and Eberle as the centerpiece for Barrie and Duchene while also advocating a scorched earth rebuild does not make much sense.

These are the exact pieces I would personally stay as far away as possible if I want to go full rebuild. They might make you better a bit next year (which sucks because you want to be bad next season) but are not pieces you really want to count on coming out of a rebuild (aka complementary pieces at best rather than building blocks). So you get a worse pick next year for little gain longterm.

I certainly wouldn't mind accumulating picks but IMO the 2017 draft is basically the worst possible draft to do that in recent memory.


Also I dislike that Barrie trade more than I dislike the Duchene trade.

I don't want to trade Landeskog but if you put a gun to my head and Hanifin or the usual suspects (Chabot / McAvoy / Chychrun) are off the table, I would be fine with that deal.

You need high picks to land your core pieces.

#15 , #18, #22 in 2017.

Really don't think there is a good chance that those picks will be core pieces down the road . I think you are overrating those mid-late 1sts a bit. There are maybe 1 or 2 core players per draft to be found in that range at best. Especially in a weaker draft like this.

I don't think Suzuki, Poehling or Brannstrom are clearly much better prospects than Meloche, Greer and Compher. And we would have sacrificed Duchene, Barrie and Landeskog to land them. Not a fan to say the least.

The Leafs and Sabres are building around high picks. The same way the Avs were building around Landy, Mac and Duchene.

Matthews #1 overall, Marner #4 overall, Nylander #8.

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06-04-2017, 04:10 PM
  #993
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Pretty sure Carlo and McAvoy are staying put, but I see your point. Having 4 first rounders would be unreal, though I'd pick different players and make different trades.
Yeah I just added some potential alternative trades that I think are of similar value as well.


But the main point is I think the rebuild was pretty clearly a failure with Landeskog, Barrie, and Duchene as the core pieces. But they're still young enough and good enough players that they do have a lot of value to other teams right now. Not as core players but as complimentary players.


And we can get a lot of good value to jump start our rebuild by moving them now. We wont get any elite pieces, but we can get a massive amount of good pieces. And then all we need is a small percentage of those pieces to develop well for us and we'll have ourselves a new core to build around hopefully with better luck then the last one.



4 1sts and 1 really high 2nd would allow us to nab 2 good Dmen, 2 good forwards, and if he's available the best goalie in the draft as well. Help in all areas.

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06-04-2017, 04:17 PM
  #994
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@Pierce:

To me wanting CDH and Eberle as the centerpiece for Barrie and Duchene while also advocating a scorched earth rebuild does not make much sense.

These are the exact pieces I would personally stay as far away as possible if I want to go full rebuild. They might make you better a bit next year (which sucks because you want to be bad next season) but are not pieces you really want to count on coming out of a rebuild. So you get a worse pick next year for little gain longterm.

I certainly wouldn't mind accumulating picks but IMO the 2017 draft is basically the worst possible draft to do that in recent memory.


Also I dislike that Barrie trade more than I dislike the Duchene trade.

I don't want to trade Landeskog but if you put a gun to my head and Hanifin or the usual suspects (Chabot / McAvoy / Chychrun) are off the table, I would be fine with that deal.

You need high picks to land your core pieces.

#15 , #18, #22 in 2017.


Really don't think there is a good chance that those picks will be core pieces down the road .

The Leafs and Sabres are building around high picks. The same way the Avs were building around Landy, Mac and Duchene.

Matthews #1 overall, Marner #4 overall, Nylander #8.

This is exactly my point though. You're not trying to get core pieces out of those trades. You're trying to get pieces that add to your core. The core comes from the young players we already have on the team(Mackinnon, Rantanen, Zadorov, maybe Jost) and our own 1st round picks that in this situation would without a doubt be top 5 picks. Heiskanen at #4 would be a core piece, and next year with another Top 3 or 4 pick you add hopefully someone like Dahlin or Svechnikov as the other big core piece.




And you just proved my point further with the Leafs. All 3 of those picks were there own picks. That's how they got the core they have was by tanking themselves. Everything else they did and all the other prospects/futures they piled up were to add complimentary guys to go along with the core.


Same thing with Buffalo. They used there own 1st round picks on Eichel, Reinheart, and Ristolainen to build the core that they have right now. They stockpiled as many prospects and futures as they could to fill out the rest of the team or to use as currency to go trade for a high end player like O'Reilly. But only when they had enough assets that the could spend 3 or 4 at once one a great player.



This is the model the Avs need to adapt right now and is the one I am advocating above. As for Eberle. I think he's a prime buy low candidate right now. The real prize out of that trade is the 1st and Caleb Jones. But with Eberle if you give him favorable minutes and a low pressure environment, maybe he can return to form and become a 60-70 point player again. Then he's either a great complimentary Top 6 winger for this team, or he's another valuable asset to see at a deadline to a contending team in the next couple of years.

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06-04-2017, 04:26 PM
  #995
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I'm not at all certain a Duchene trade will be the thing that solves the Avalanche blue line problem. I think that only comes via draft/development.

Which of course is stressful, given 20+ years of history in this regard.
I agree in the sense that the blue line problem can't be solved by the addition of one piece. In the long term they need to have a steady pipeline.

Having a coach that will teach this team some team defense would go a long way too.

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06-04-2017, 04:31 PM
  #996
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This is exactly my point though. You're not trying to get core pieces out of those trades. You're trying to get pieces that add to your core. The core comes from the young players we already have on the team(Mackinnon, Rantanen, Zadorov, maybe Jost) and our own 1st round picks that in this situation would without a doubt be top 5 picks. Heiskanen at #4 would be a core piece, and next year with another Top 3 or 4 pick you add hopefully someone like Dahlin or Svechnikov as the other big core piece.




And you just proved my point further with the Leafs. All 3 of those picks were there own picks. That's how they got the core they have was by tanking themselves. Everything else they did and all the other prospects/futures they piled up were to add complimentary guys to go along with the core.


Same thing with Buffalo. They used there own 1st round picks on Eichel, Reinheart, and Ristolainen to build the core that they have right now. They stockpiled as many prospects and futures as they could to fill out the rest of the team or to use as currency to go trade for a high end player like O'Reilly. But only when they had enough assets that the could spend 3 or 4 at once one a great player.



This is the model the Avs need to adapt right now and is the one I am advocating above. As for Eberle. I think he's a prime buy low candidate right now. The real prize out of that trade is the 1st and Caleb Jones. But with Eberle if you give him favorable minutes and a low pressure environment, maybe he can return to form and become a 60-70 point player again. Then he's either a great complimentary Top 6 winger for this team, or he's another valuable asset to see at a deadline to a contending team in the next couple of years.
I don't quite understand what you are saying.
So you don't want to trade for potential core pieces because you believe core pieces should only come via the draft and we should use our former core to build up depth ?

I disagree with that. IMO Duchene, Barrie and Landeskog are still capable of being core players. Just maybe not with the Avs.
But I wouldn't just sell them off cheap because they haven't worked out for us.
I think that would be a huge mistake.

I would want young, high quality prospects in return that could turn into potential core pieces for us. I don't really care where our core pieces come from.
The more potential young, building blocks I can get on my team during a rebuild, the better. The success rate isn't that great anyways so the more we have, the better the chance.

That is why I would rather trade Duchene for Chabot or McAvoy straight up than trade him for CdH, #15 and MDC because I think those guys can be core players for us while I don't think the latter 3 have a realistic shot at it.

I really don't think Duchene, Barrie and Landeskog should be used to fix our depth
Smart UFA 1 year deals (with the intention of selling them at the deadline), taking on a few bad contracts, selling at the deadline and most importantly getting better at drafting is how I would adress my depth.

Especially if you are committed to a longer rebuild. If you play your cards right, the depth will come automatically in that scenario. No need to sacrifice your best trading chips for it.

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06-04-2017, 04:44 PM
  #997
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
I don't quite understand what you are saying.
So you don't want to trade for potential core pieces because you believe core pieces should only come via the draft and we should use our former core to build up depth ?


I disagree with that. IMO Duchene, Barrie and Landeskog are still capable of being core players. Just maybe not with the Avs.
But I wouldn't just sell them off cheap because they haven't worked out for us.
I think that would be a huge mistake.

I would want young, high quality prospects in return that could turn into potential core pieces for us. I don't really care where our core pieces come from.
The more potential young, building blocks I can get on my team during a rebuild, the better. The success rate isn't that great anyways so the more we have, the better the chance.

That is why I would rather trade Duchene for Chabot or McAvoy straight up than trade them for CdH, #15 and MDC because I think those guys can be core players for us while I don't think the latter 3 have a realistic shot at it.

I really don't think Duchene, Barrie and Landeskog should be used to fix our depth
Smart UFA 1 year deals (with the intention of selling them at the deadline), taking on a few bad contracts, selling at the deadline and most importantly getting better at drafting is how I would adress my depth.

Especially if you are committed to a longer rebuild. If you play your cards right, the depth will come automatically in that scenario. No need to sacrifice your best trading chips for it.


Yes and no. I mean, if we take on a B level prospect and he surpasses expectations and ends up being elite then that's great. But expecting and trying to get just 1 great piece is not realistic because teams aren't going to give up that really great piece for our guys(They're just not worth it). That's why the best alternative is to get a bunch of good if not great pieces, and you hope that one or two of them can exceed expectations and become elite pieces for us.



Another key thing here I dont think you understand the difference between a depth piece and a complimentary piece. Your 3rd and 4th line, and your bottom pairing are depth pieces. You can find those guys mostly through later rounds in the draft, smart free agency signings and other methods.

The complimentary pieces are your #3/4 Dmen, your 2nd line wingers and maybe your really high end #3 Center. Those are guys that aren't the elite players that can drive a line or carry a team on it's back, but the guys who are essential to the success of your team. It's these types of players that are crucial to winning a cup and you cant just find them in free agency or in the later rounds of the draft(Except on occasions). And none of Duchene, Landeskog, or Barrie are core pieces. They aren't capable of carrying a team or driving a line. They're complimentary pieces. Which is why expecting a core piece back for them is just unrealistic.


I'm starting to think you believe a teams core is like 5 or 6+ players if not more which just isn't the case and would explain why you're valuing our players as high as you are, you think they're core players when the just aren't. Even the best of teams have at most 3, maybe 4 core players. Pittsburgh has Malkin, Crosby, and Murray(Letang to when he's healthy). Nashville has Josi, Johansen, and maaaybe Subban or Rinne. Chicago had Toews, Kane, and Keith.


The Avs already have 1 of its core players for sure in Mackinnon. The hope is that Rantanen can become a 2nd core player(And I think he will). After that, assuming we draft Heiskanen between him and Zadorov one of them has a good chance of being a 3rd piece, and if are lucky enough to get Dahlin or Svechnikov next year they would be another.

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06-04-2017, 05:10 PM
  #998
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I dont think you can put a number on the core or even begin to define who they are exactly. Hell im sure OTT consider Pageau a part of their core, but he obviously wouldnt be close to be thought of one on HF.

Seems like an odd way to build a team.

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06-04-2017, 05:43 PM
  #999
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Originally Posted by agentblack View Post
I dont think you can put a number on the core or even begin to define who they are exactly. Hell im sure OTT consider Pageau a part of their core, but he obviously wouldnt be close to be thought of one on HF.

Seems like an odd way to build a team.
Duchene was our core player 2 years ago when things went well and he was scoring 30 goals, 70 points, before his trade rumors had started. If Duchene has a comeback season to what he was a few years back, putting him with players that he has chemistry with, instead of players that don't fit our team like Sodenberg and Comeau, he will once again be tagged as a core player.

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06-04-2017, 06:00 PM
  #1000
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Avs have 3 core players in Johnson (when healthy), Mackinnon and Rantanen. Possible near future core players would most likely be Jost, Compher, Zadorov if he keeps getting better, but so far the progress has been very good. A.J Greer and Meloche have a chance to be our core players.

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