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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Storm Clouds Brewing in NHLPA - Chris Chelios the Peacemaker???

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Old
06-13-2017, 06:18 PM
  #51
Nino33
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
All the lockout talk seems to be media hype more than anything else, there's no logical reason it would go that far.
As well as the media I think there's a fair number of fans that like the "Bettman and the owners are evil" narrative

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06-13-2017, 07:18 PM
  #52
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Same goes for the players. They are looking out for their own interests, at the expense of the fans and the health of the sport.
But that's not just true. Players don't get paid a cent to go the Olympics or the World Championships, but still go.

And you see players take a "home town discount" on a regular basis too, to help their club field a winning team.

You see none of that from the owners. They won't do anything without a direct financial incentive.

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06-13-2017, 08:20 PM
  #53
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But that's not just true. Players don't get paid a cent to go the Olympics or the World Championships, but still go.
Players have guaranteed contracts - who do you think is taking the a big risk in the event of an injury? And as has been publicly reported, the players are not unified on international competitions. Most NHL players don't play in the Olympics, and many don't want to make sacrifices for the few players that get to go. I'm sure we'll see this again in the next bargaining, and it'll be a challenge for the NHLPA to get all the players on the same side for this.

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And you see players take a "home town discount" on a regular basis too, to help their club field a winning team.
That's an exception, not the norm for most contracts signed. Players have agencies that negotiate contracts on their behalf, and they try to extract the most advantageous deal they can (signing bonuses, salary, term, trade clauses) in their personal interests. Hockey is a business. Why do you think every cup champion get broken up in the salary cap era?

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You see none of that from the owners. They won't do anything without a direct financial incentive.
Just like players, there are some owners that do things not always measured by the bottom line. The common mantra here of "Owners are bad, Players are good" is precisely why fans are just fodder for both parties. Hockey is a business, and both the players and owners' are trying to maximize their revenue. They largely have the same motives, and sure there are exceptions in certain scenarios.

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06-13-2017, 10:45 PM
  #54
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I am curious to see how NBC is going to react or if it effects any future deals Having no Olympic participation ....why do the players even care ...Glory ...nationalism ...time off ....Having the NHL games "go against" Olympic content .... The NHL is great at playing hard ball , but when the entity is bigger than themselves the idea of losing money to make a point ....well us hotheads like it but its bad business....When the new tv deal comes around will it effect negotiations ....Does the NHL expect a higher bid from another network ....will the 4 .3 mil the mil they get from regular season games be enough ...Its been reported the Olympics have caused strife in the NHLPA Wrong thread but these ideas of ratings.... lot of it is based on 6 minutes .... that means flipping through the channels ...well some tv the commercial time is 5 or 6 minutes ...others 2 or 3 minutes .... all curious questions ....
End game the non participation of pro players comes from the NHL wanting more money from NBC since it is not an NHL product just NHL players ......NBC refused to pay .... who is right well right or wrong does not matter .....

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06-14-2017, 06:36 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by PuckProphet View Post
I am curious to see how NBC is going to react or if it effects any future deals Having no Olympic participation ....why do the players even care ...Glory ...nationalism ...time off ....Having the NHL games "go against" Olympic content .... The NHL is great at playing hard ball , but when the entity is bigger than themselves the idea of losing money to make a point ....well us hotheads like it but its bad business....When the new tv deal comes around will it effect negotiations ....Does the NHL expect a higher bid from another network ....will the 4 .3 mil the mil they get from regular season games be enough ...Its been reported the Olympics have caused strife in the NHLPA Wrong thread but these ideas of ratings.... lot of it is based on 6 minutes .... that means flipping through the channels ...well some tv the commercial time is 5 or 6 minutes ...others 2 or 3 minutes .... all curious questions ....
End game the non participation of pro players comes from the NHL wanting more money from NBC since it is not an NHL product just NHL players ......NBC refused to pay .... who is right well right or wrong does not matter .....
Um, what? The NHL has seen no bump from its Olympic participation. It's been bad business to actually have done it all these times. It's funny you rip on the NHL, basically saying they are greedy, but expect them to lay down for the IOC, who are such bastions of magnanimity. The Olympics are not some sacred trust across nations. They are every bit the business the NHL is. Don't kid yourself.

And NBC pays the NHL $200 million a season for a lot of programming. Hockey might have a small part in the total amount NBC pays to air the olympics, but a) the summer games drive that boat, and b)hockey still comes a distant second to figure skating in the ratings.

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06-14-2017, 08:00 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Bluefan75 View Post
Um, what? The NHL has seen no bump from its Olympic participation. It's been bad business to actually have done it all these times. It's funny you rip on the NHL, basically saying they are greedy, but expect them to lay down for the IOC, who are such bastions of magnanimity. The Olympics are not some sacred trust across nations. They are every bit the business the NHL is. Don't kid yourself.

And NBC pays the NHL $200 million a season for a lot of programming. Hockey might have a small part in the total amount NBC pays to air the olympics, but a) the summer games drive that boat, and b)hockey still comes a distant second to figure skating in the ratings.
While i do rip the NHL from time to time and the greed factor is a part of it ...The rip is more about diversity and growing the league ... A sentiment the players cited when they were talking out .... The idea of Olympics well hey i read it on this thread from other posters and it seems like gospel ..... the TJ Oshie comment the top three greatest player comment .... A bunch of comments that other posters made ...It seems very solid to say that a large portion of non NHL fans watch Olympic hockey ...I believe the other posters ....Insightful comments.... As for the NBC comment ...I am not making this stuff up it came from Bettman's mouth ...They wanted a cut for the NHL from NBC or some sponsor .... Trying to produce some proof I noticed the primary goal from the NHL is sponsorship which means very heavy advertising...Not sure how much Olympic advertising brings It also seems like Bridgestone is playing peacemaker ...However i did also read some monetary payment to the NHL was expected .... Does the Olympics offer any kind of bonus to the NHL? Well what i read here seems to say yes ....But did anyone go out and buy a ticket to see TJ play after that great Olympics last time ..... Bettman knows better than I .....
Does watching Olympic hockey translate to watching NHL games ..... Needs a study lol

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06-14-2017, 08:17 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Bluefan75 View Post
And NBC pays the NHL $200 million a season for a lot of programming.
Is that what the NHL gets,$200 million? Id so, wow that's a small amount (less than half of what they get from Rogers/Canada!)

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06-14-2017, 08:37 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by PuckProphet View Post
Does watching Olympic hockey translate to watching NHL games ..... Needs a study lol
I believe the answer on this has been no, at least in North America. There hasn't been a material or sustained increase in ratings or attendance post-Olympics for the NHL. That is even in cases where the Olympics ratings blow the SCF ratings out of the water (such as the 2010 gold medal game).

In terms of financial benefits from hockey in the Olympics, it's really toward the IOC (and its members) and personally to the players (endorsements). Objectively, you can see where a significant financial risk is taken by the NHL, but with debatable material benefits flowing back to their business. The real overlap is with broadcast partners. With NBC sharing both the Olympics and NHL rights, there's always been reports that NBC has pressured the NHL to participate.

Note though that IOC maintains broadcast right post-Olympics, and the NHL isn't able to use virtually any of the Olympic material in the NHL due to IOC rights. Olympics is a business just as much as the NHL is.

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06-14-2017, 08:47 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by PuckProphet View Post
While i do rip the NHL from time to time and the greed factor is a part of it ...The rip is more about diversity and growing the league ... A sentiment the players cited when they were talking out .... The idea of Olympics well hey i read it on this thread from other posters and it seems like gospel ..... the TJ Oshie comment the top three greatest player comment .... A bunch of comments that other posters made ...It seems very solid to say that a large portion of non NHL fans watch Olympic hockey ...I believe the other posters ....Insightful comments.... As for the NBC comment ...I am not making this stuff up it came from Bettman's mouth ...They wanted a cut for the NHL from NBC or some sponsor .... Trying to produce some proof I noticed the primary goal from the NHL is sponsorship which means very heavy advertising...Not sure how much Olympic advertising brings It also seems like Bridgestone is playing peacemaker ...However i did also read some monetary payment to the NHL was expected .... Does the Olympics offer any kind of bonus to the NHL? Well what i read here seems to say yes ....But did anyone go out and buy a ticket to see TJ play after that great Olympics last time ..... Bettman knows better than I .....
Does watching Olympic hockey translate to watching NHL games ..... Needs a study lol
Those fans you're trusting that don't watch NHL hockey...how's the league in their home country?

If they're from NA, they've made their choice...why should the NHL care? There are some who's sole purpose seems to be to bas mouth the NHL and praise anything that is "against" the NHL but they NEVER put their money where their mouth is so I don't see the NHL ever caring (nor do I understand from a business perspective why they should)

Given the NHL is the only top hockey league when it comes to salaries/business aspects AINEC, why would you give so much credence to their opinions? They, like the IOC, want things to continue as they are where they get something for free and the NHL pays for everything

Olympic hockey will quickly lose relevance to all but the Olympic fanboys...and since (as you note) these fanboys generally hate the NHL who cares what they have to say? Very few of them are old enough to remember the Olympics before 1998, so their sense of entitlement is strong

Another factor that many of the posters you're reading/liking really struggle with.....the NHL's market is NA, not "the world" (those posters expect the NHL to do the job of the IOC and the other leagues/fans worldwide to market/increase/expand hockey outside NA....why? That's not the NHL's job)

The fans complaining can't/won't support the players at anywhere near their market value in leagues around the world, and many glory in their not supporting the NHL.....it makes no sense to me how they think they can dictate to a NA business how they have to behave, and their expectations have little if any connection to the NHL business world, and they themselves offer nothing (but vitriol) to the NHL

There is absolutely no "proof" that the NHL benefits in any way from Olympic participation; dozens have sports have been shown in the Winter/Summer Olympics for the last 50 years of my life and yet there's still no interest/league/etc in NA.....why aren't their pro leagues in NA for all the sports being shown over generations? Because the Olympics has little real effect on anyone (people watch it as brief entertainment for a couple/few weeks out of ever 100 weeks, fewer and fewer "care" IMO)

IMO if the NHL/Bettman were to read all the comments, why would they care what those who claim they're evil/hate them/don't watch/etc say? I think they'd simply go "you can't please everyone" and move on with their own business which is more than enough to keep them busy

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06-14-2017, 08:56 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by scopar View Post
I believe the answer on this has been no, at least in North America. There hasn't been a material or sustained increase in ratings or attendance post-Olympics for the NHL. That is even in cases where the Olympics ratings blow the SCF ratings out of the water (such as the 2010 gold medal game).
IIRC in 2010 in Canada about 28 million watched the gold medal game live...for Sochi it was about 7 million

The time difference made an enormous difference between 2010 and 2014.....the 2018 and 2022 Olympics will suffer the same significant drop because of the time difference issues (and it'll only get lower without NHLers)

I always wonder how much of the IOC money is from NA?
I've asked before about the money paid around the world for Olympic coverage rights, but never seen anything but NA data.....does NA pays a small fraction of the total amount, or a large portion?

If the IOC gets way more from the rest of the world for coverage rights, the NHL has much less leverage.....but if not, then the NHL has enormous leverage IMO (I think 2018/2022 Olympic hockey ratings will be terrible in NA with games on in the middle of the night with 2nd/3rd/4th tier players)

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06-14-2017, 09:18 AM
  #61
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I always wonder how much of the IOC money is from NA?
I've asked before about the money paid around the world for Olympic coverage rights, but never seen anything but NA data.....does NA pays a small fraction of the total amount, or a large portion?
I believe it's a large portion. Considering the Winter Games has less global appeal than the Summer games (for obvious reasons), the IOC gets a higher proportion of its Winter Games review (broadcast/sponsorship) from NA than Summer.

It's difficult to get exact number for the rights paid for the Winter games, since it's often bundled with Summer and covers multiple years. There's also sub-licensing that happens. Here's some:

NBC paid ~$775 million for the 2014 Winter Olympics. For Sochi, that was 60% of the IOC's TV renevue. NBC signed a $7.5B deal with the IOC for all US Olympic rights until 2032. It was reported that the NBC TV deal is at least 20% of all its overall revenue. (source)

CBC has the rights up to the 2022 Winter Olympics but the value wasn't disclosed. I've seen a figure of around $160M CAD per Olympic games claimed.

While those numbers are impressive, keep in mind that hockey isn't the absolute marquee event of the Winter Olympics in all markets. In Canada, yes, but in the US, not always. Other sports, including Figure Skating, have consistently better ratings than most gold medal games. For 2018, where figure skating is extremely popular in Asia, I suspect even if the NHL participated, Figure Skating will be king/queen from a global viewership and attendance. Even in Canada, curling is usually a cash cow for TV rights.

For the above reason, you can't take the Olympics TV deal value and compare it directly against what NBC/Rogers paid for NHL rights.

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06-14-2017, 10:19 AM
  #62
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Sorry, I didn't word things well I guess...I noted I had access to NA data, it's anything from the rest of the world that I know nothing about

I don't want to know how much the IOC gets from NA as a specific value, but what percentage of $ comes from NA

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06-14-2017, 10:24 AM
  #63
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Get Fehr out before he drags the sport down again because of his massive ego

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06-14-2017, 10:35 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by scopar View Post
NBC paid ~$775 million for the 2014 Winter Olympics. For Sochi, that was 60% of the IOC's TV renevue. NBC signed a $7.5B deal with the IOC for all US Olympic rights until 2032. It was reported that the NBC TV deal is at least 20% of all its overall revenue.
So the NHL gets more from just Canada for hockey until 2025 than NBC paid the IOC for all US Olympic rights until 2032? That doesn't seem like the Olympics have a lot of value to me...


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While those numbers are impressive, keep in mind that hockey isn't the absolute marquee event of the Winter Olympics in all markets.
I'm seriously not very impressed myself...


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For 2018, where figure skating is extremely popular in Asia, I suspect even if the NHL participated, Figure Skating will be king/queen from a global viewership and attendance. Even in Canada, curling is usually a cash cow for TV rights.
I suspect if one was to compare worldwide what the top 1000 hockey players make worldwide, the top 1000 figure skaters, and the top 1000 curlers the value of being "king/queen" in global Olympic viewership is virtually nil

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06-14-2017, 10:56 AM
  #65
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Yea it seems people have a dog in the fight, I personally could gloat laugh and say haha but i am not about the need for revenge or to attack....

1 this idea Summer Olympics are more popular than Winter well obviously there are more countries that do not have snow than have snow The summer sports have a wider fan base ...the question is do snow countries watch more sports tv ....

2 The idea that Olympic hockey does not translate to NHL hockey ...the thought of nationalism driving the Olympics makes me think yea ....the 1980 gold medal game got lot of press over the years ...curious to see what terms where mentioned more Do you believe in miracles or Gretzky ...again leaning towards the NHL and Olympics might compete not enhance Basketball might shed light ....same exact situation Both sports use the term "dream team" a lot ...perhaps one better than the other

the idea of Fanboys is there such a thing only time i ever here Olympics mentioned is in regards to network television once every four years lol @ fanboy lol that makes me think the dog in the fight theory its ok to advocate for the owners i wrote on another message board the owners are the businessmen sometimes taking what they give best bet ...

the idea from fans from other countries making statements about NHL relevance i believe not trust what they said because it makes sense It rings true words like fanboy do not ring true its part of what wrong with the NHL MOD

Bottom line the NHL made themselves a villain when they didn't have to ...Forget about NBC and any compensation .... the real issue is attendance money .... Attendance money is the bread and beard of the NHL All the NHL had to say was you want to go to the Olympics we will prorate the salaries because of missed games ...I got it in my head the 50 60 players that do participate is not the issue the issue is the other 600+ who get paid time off .....and hey like i said right or wrong does not matter its a business..

Personally i think its better for the players to accept contracts and forget about this partnership idea ...I get the idea when escrow comes to term they are scratching their heads thinking how could this be ....Its not enough ...Personally i think getting mad over how much someone makes is a bit touched in the head be it owners players ...waitresses ...If the NHLPA wants to be a partner if they want to sleep well they need a very good accounting firm handling their end ...Instead of thinking somehow we are being robbed ...My opinion its their money ....


Last edited by Fugu: 06-14-2017 at 12:27 PM. Reason: some politics, a bit of formatting -- that was DIFFICULT to read
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06-14-2017, 11:34 AM
  #66
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So the NHL gets more from just Canada for hockey until 2025 than NBC paid the IOC for all US Olympic rights until 2032? That doesn't seem like the Olympics have a lot of value to me...
Huh? The Rogers/NHL 12 year deal was for $5.2B CAD, or a little under $4B USD. The NBC/IOC deal was for $7.5B USD, or a little under $10B CAD..

The deals are not directly comparable because the programming content is different. Olympics are usually a three-week period every 2 years (summer and winter alternating for the NBC contract) which NHL hockey stretches for ~9 months every year. Hockey is only a portion of the rights the IOC sells.

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I suspect if one was to compare worldwide what the top 1000 hockey players make worldwide, the top 1000 figure skaters, and the top 1000 curlers the value of being "king/queen" in global Olympic viewership is virtually nil
Those are two different things completely. TV rights and ad revenue are distinct and completely from salaries made by the athletes individually or collectively. As a TV product, Olympic Figure Skating is very strong worldwide, including in North America for the Olympics. Curling is a strong TV product in Canada, irrespective of what the athletes make.

From the NHLPA perspective, what I'm guessing they look are looking at is the financial benefits of being in the Olympics. The Olympics can translate into more endorsement income for players. Forbes had put Crosby's endorsement income at about 30% of his earnings. Ovechkin's was put around 20%. That's more likely the top end.

The vast majority of players, especially those that don't participate in the Olympics and only have the name recognition through the NHL, would have a low endorsement income as a percentage of annual earnings. As such, you can probably guess why the NHLPA hasn't bargained Olympics participation into this CBA, and I'd be surprised how much all the players collectively would give up for it again.


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06-14-2017, 12:04 PM
  #67
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Huh? The Rogers/NHL 12 year deal was for $5.2B CAD, or a little under $4B USD. The NBC/IOC deal was for $7.5B USD, or a little under $10B CAD...
Oops! My mistake; I forget to take the value of the dollar into consideration & I was looking at the Sochi number mistakenly instead of the NBC contract number (alas without Winter/Summer separation the numbers aren't very meaningful.....given a substantial portion must connect to the Summer Olympics I don't think my point in general is any different)

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Those are two different things completely. TV rights and ad revenue are distinct and completely from salaries made by the athletes individually or collectively. As a TV product, Olympic Figure Skating is very strong worldwide, including in North America for the Olympics. Curling is a strong TV product in Canada, irrespective of what the athletes make.
I disagree; TV rights and ad revenue directly connect to salaries, the highest salaries worldwide connect to the sports with the highest TV/ad revenue (IMO the look at salaries clearly shows how strong a "product" sports like figure skating and curling actually are...people watch things in the Olympics for 2/3 weeks every 4 years they otherwise don't care at all about the other 200+ weeks, and this is an example)

Seems to me almost all Olympics sports aren't "products" like hockey or any other major sport because outside of the Olympics the interest is really low in comparison to major sports (at least when it involves paying money for it, as opposed to paying your cable bill)

The Olympics themselves are a product...a tarnished product, with less interest in NA than in the past.
Still relevant, and helping sports like figure skating/curling get some attention every 4 years...but otherwise clearly doing little to nothing to benefit these sports as a "product" as far as I can tell

The Olympics seem to be about the IOC making money (and some of that money gets to grass roots organizations), not benefiting the sports as a "product"

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06-14-2017, 12:29 PM
  #68
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I disagree; TV rights and ad revenue directly connect to salaries, the highest salaries worldwide connect to the sports with the highest TV/ad revenue (IMO the look at salaries clearly shows how strong a "product" sports like figure skating and curling actually are...people watch things in the Olympics for 2/3 weeks every 4 years they otherwise don't care at all about the other 200+ weeks, and this is an example)

Seems to me almost all Olympics sports aren't "products" like hockey or any other major sport because outside of the Olympics the interest is really low in comparison to major sports (at least when it involves paying money for it, as opposed to paying your cable bill)
Oh I definitely agree that there's a correlation, and that's the reality of sports with established professional leagues with weekly games. That said, a few of the top Figure Skaters and Snowboarders have huge endorsement deals (> $5M annually).

Anyhow the sports in the Olympics that don't have millionaire salaried professionals aren't quite to be laughed at with their ability to generate TV and Ad revenue for broadcasters every Olympic cycle. That comes into play when comparing Hockey at the Olympics to other Olympic sports. Hockey does have most of the highest paid athletes in the Winter Olympics with NHL participation, but that doesn't mean it's the most valuable Olympic product.

It's not that much different from Basketball, Tennis or Soccer in the Summer Olympics. They're probably the highest paid athletes that participate, but those sports aren't the highest rated TV products at the Olympics. The usual top summer Olympic products are Gymnastics, Swimming, and Track and Field.

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The Olympics themselves are a product...a tarnished product, with less interest in NA than in the past.
Still relevant, and helping sports like figure skating/curling get some attention every 4 years...but otherwise clearly doing little to nothing to benefit these sports as a "product" as far as I can tell

The Olympics seem to be about the IOC making money (and some of that money gets to grass roots organizations), not benefiting the sports as a "product"
Eh, that's a different discussion entirely. The IOC would need its own forum

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06-15-2017, 08:04 AM
  #69
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Is that what the NHL gets,$200 million? Id so, wow that's a small amount (less than half of what they get from Rogers/Canada!)
Yeah it was a 10 year, $2 billion deal. In comparison it is tiny, although it is US money. How the NHL did not get a currency fluctuation clause put in the Rogers deal, I don't know....

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