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Expansion Draft Rules, Alignment & Schedule Matrix for Las Vegas

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Old
06-11-2017, 02:42 PM
  #151
Lempo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
The NHL hasn't clarified that rule, however I would guess it would be considered tampering as the 3rd teams are not allowed to communicate with pending FA's yet. Using another party as a go-between could still be considered tampering.
Though, in this case the another party, McPhee, is explicitly allowed to negotiate with the FA, I understand as the FA's own team would be. The FA's own team certainly would be allowed to sign the FA up in mutual understanding that it is to be traded.

But, should we understand that McPhee's privileges aren't at this point extended to cover the trading aspect of the FA but only to the signing up to Vegas bit? Unlike the actual team of the pending, still signed-on FA, Vegas can't at this point claim to control the FA for trading purposes until July 1st (or until June 21st in case the FA is successfully signed by Vegas).


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06-11-2017, 04:00 PM
  #152
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/3...pansion-draft/

Friedman info
Quote:
Any trades Vegas makes are not to be official until June 21.
So there might be FC trades, but we might not know they exist until after the expansion draft is revealed?


Edit: I think that we may know there's a FC trade and what is going "to" VGK. We won't learn of what's going the other way (i.e., FA signed by VGK, other selected player; or who's protected) until 6/21.


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06-13-2017, 12:48 PM
  #153
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Sorry if this has been asked, but does anybody know for sure how the draft rules for Vegas apply to RFAs?

I am aware of the negotiating period with free agents prior to the draft. What I am not clear about is whether Vegas can select an RFA's "Rights" even if that RFA doesn't agree to a contract with them. I've seen a lot of people referencing Vegas having to get an RFA to agree to a contract prior to the draft in order to be allowed to select them, but this makes no sense given the nature of how RFAs work. I'd appreciate someone who knows a bit more clearing this up for me.

Thanks.

edit: was answered on the previous page. NVM

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06-13-2017, 01:45 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by danielpalfredsson View Post
I've seen a lot of people referencing Vegas having to get an RFA to agree to a contract prior to the draft in order to be allowed to select them, but this makes no sense given the nature of how RFAs work.
I think it's quite sensible: both the rights-owning team and Vegas can negotiate with and sign him as he was their RFA. So, for the 72 hours the unprotected RFA (and UFA) is restricted for two teams instead of the usual one: his own team and Vegas.

I think it's good rule to prevent the 30 teams circumventing the spirit of the Draft by keeping an interesting FA of theirs out of contract until after the Draft, with the added flavor that if you don't sign the FA to a contract you're yourself comfortable with, Vegas can go and overbid you to get him.

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06-14-2017, 12:52 AM
  #155
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06-14-2017, 07:13 AM
  #156
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I wonder if the PA was an active part in the formulation of the rule that Vegas can only sign the Free Agents during the 72-hours window, but not pick them in the pending status so they would get their rights and could try signing them up later.

The Restricted Free Agency is a CBA-mandated price-finding method for the player and the team holding his rights to come up with a mutually acceptable contract. If Vegas was allowed to pick an unsigned RFA in the Expansion Draft, the negotiations would be tilted towards the team who could give a prominent RFA a take-it-or-leave-it offer to the cheap side with the side note that they wouldn't dream of wasting a Protection slot on him and he can try his luck in an expansion team otherwise.

This way the RFA has some more leverage and say onto the matter with what terms he will sign on to play.

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06-14-2017, 08:08 AM
  #157
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As it's not in the CBA explicitly, the union had to be consulted as agree to all expansion draft details.

I can imagine a RFA with arbitration rights being difficult to sign in that window unless good contract offered.

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06-14-2017, 09:57 AM
  #158
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Are the actual rules for the Expansion Draft anywhere available for download to the public consumption? The actual honest-to-god rules from Section 1 to the very last one, up to date, in a PDF or other form. Not a "primer", not a "look into", not an article titled "NHL Expansion Draft Rules" in NHL.com or any secondary press source with a patchy abridged version. The ones with CBA-like legalese, saying "Expansion Team" a lot instead of Vegas or Golden Knights, where one can actually read how it will precisely go, without things being sieved through any moron of a journo whose capability to unmarry Unrestricted Free Agent from the notions of Offer Sheets and stuff may fail at critical moment.

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06-14-2017, 12:06 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lempo View Post
Are the actual rules for the Expansion Draft anywhere available for download to the public consumption? The actual honest-to-god rules from Section 1 to the very last one, up to date, in a PDF or other form. Not a "primer", not a "look into", not an article titled "NHL Expansion Draft Rules" in NHL.com or any secondary press source with a patchy abridged version. The ones with CBA-like legalese, saying "Expansion Team" a lot instead of Vegas or Golden Knights, where one can actually read how it will precisely go, without things being sieved through any moron of a journo whose capability to unmarry Unrestricted Free Agent from the notions of Offer Sheets and stuff may fail at critical moment.
If the NHL or PA sites don't put it up, then no.

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06-14-2017, 04:01 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lempo View Post
I wonder if the PA was an active part in the formulation of the rule that Vegas can only sign the Free Agents during the 72-hours window, but not pick them in the pending status so they would get their rights and could try signing them up later.

The Restricted Free Agency is a CBA-mandated price-finding method for the player and the team holding his rights to come up with a mutually acceptable contract. If Vegas was allowed to pick an unsigned RFA in the Expansion Draft, the negotiations would be tilted towards the team who could give a prominent RFA a take-it-or-leave-it offer to the cheap side with the side note that they wouldn't dream of wasting a Protection slot on him and he can try his luck in an expansion team otherwise.

This way the RFA has some more leverage and say onto the matter with what terms he will sign on to play.
Not sure what you're trying to say here? Vegas can pick RFA's and sign them later. They're not required to sign the RFA during the 72 hour FA window.

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06-14-2017, 04:13 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Not sure what you're trying to say here? Vegas can pick RFA's and sign them later. They're not required to sign the RFA during the 72 hour FA window.
They can then? That's the reason why I'd like to see the actual legit rules, because the single excerpt that I've seen posted pretty much seems to making the case that the Expansion Team can sign RFAs during the defined 72 hour window, and that for signatures during this window there won't be a compensation in Entry Draft pics and it's all written like the e contrario interpretation of it is that Vegas can't sign anyone's Free Agents at any other time and there will be the usual pick compensation on later occasions.

Some journos talk of "negotiation window", some other of "signing window" and all in all I'm under impression that the only way Vegas walks away with anyone's FA is by signing him during the window and submitting the contract at the ending minute of the window and that subsequently Vegas will have 30 players inked at the end of the Draft.

The bit about "minimum of 20 needing to be under contract for 2017-18" (from last summer rule summations) would have been from time when it was up in the air how the Free Agents would be handled.

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06-14-2017, 04:22 PM
  #162
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NHL.com about dates:


"Wednesday, June 21 - Deadline for the Expansion Club to simultaneously submit its Expansion Draft Selections to Central Registry and the NHLPA (10 a.m. ET).

Deadline for the Expansion Club to submit SPCs for any pending UFA/RFAs who are selected by the Expansion Club and signed to a new contract (10 a.m. ET). The Expansion Club is permitted to sign a current or pending Free Agent on a Current Club's list of Available Players during the period between 10:01 a.m. ET on Sunday, June 18, and 9:59 a.m. ET on Wednesday, June 21, and in so doing will be deemed to have made its Expansion Draft selection from such Current Club. If the Expansion Club signs a Restricted Free Agent from the Available List of a Current Club during said period, the Current Club will not be entitled to any compensation from the Expansion Club."


I believe this is text from the Official Rules. Unless there is another clause about Vegas being allowed to pick FAs without signing them, then my interpretation must be that they can't.


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06-14-2017, 04:25 PM
  #163
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Vegas can sign a team's exposed UFA or RFA during the 72 hour window. If Vegas does so then that counts as Vegas's expansion pick from that team. That's the full extent of it.

Vegas is required to select at least 20 players under contract for 2017-18. Meaning they could select up to 10 pending UFA or RFA players. If Vegas did sign a RFA/UFA player during the 72 hour window they would presumably count towards that 20 player requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lempo View Post
NHL.com about dates:


"Wednesday, June 21 - Deadline for the Expansion Club to simultaneously submit its Expansion Draft Selections to Central Registry and the NHLPA (10 a.m. ET).

Deadline for the Expansion Club to submit SPCs for any pending UFA/RFAs who are selected by the Expansion Club and signed to a new contract (10 a.m. ET). The Expansion Club is permitted to sign a current or pending Free Agent on a Current Club's list of Available Players during the period between 10:01 a.m. ET on Sunday, June 18, and 9:59 a.m. ET on Wednesday, June 21, and in so doing will be deemed to have made its Expansion Draft selection from such Current Club. If the Expansion Club signs a Restricted Free Agent from the Available List of a Current Club during said period, the Current Club will not be entitled to any compensation from the Expansion Club."


I believe this is text from the Official Rules. Unless there is another clause about Vegas being allowed to pick FAs without signing them, then my interpretation must be that they can't.
The rule you quoted says what happens IF Vegas signs a RFA/UFA player. It does not say that Vegas MUST sign RFA/UFA players to select them.

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06-14-2017, 04:46 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Vegas can sign a team's exposed UFA or RFA during the 72 hour window. If Vegas does so then that counts as Vegas's expansion pick from that team. That's the full extent of it.

Vegas is required to select at least 20 players under contract for 2017-18. Meaning they could select up to 10 pending UFA or RFA players. If Vegas did sign a RFA/UFA player during the 72 hour window they would presumably count towards that 20 player requirement.



The rule you quoted says what happens IF Vegas signs a RFA/UFA player. It does not say that Vegas MUST sign RFA/UFA players to select them.
I'd like to see the rules to confirm that. The wording about selecting ar least 20 under contract has been doing rounds since 2016, but the option for Vegas to sign the players during the 72 hours came only recently. The initial idea at the time of the 2016 wording may have been that RFAs could be picked as unsigned but it may have changed since because of some reason (PA demand to maintain the negotiation balance between team and RFA?).

There won't be an Available List from Current Club at any other time than the period mentioned in the "IF" sentence. In any case, this would mean that there will be the usual Draft Puck compensation if the RFA is signed later on. It'd be a very expensive Expansion pick. And, is Vegas really going to be allowed to parade unsigned UFAs as theirs in the Great Unveil, when they most likely would balk a week later to some other team?

I think the text may need to be read like the usual CBA text where they tell that you can do thing X to player Y at time Z and it would mean that doing X to Y is no-go at any time not Z, ie. anything not explicitly and strictly permitted by the text is not permitted. If there is no other Clause about picking Free Agents, then going only by this Clause these would be the only tricks you can do with a FA in the ED.


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06-14-2017, 05:23 PM
  #165
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"The current club will not be entitled to any compensation" is a clarification that if Vegas signs an RFA during the window as their expansion pick the RFA Compensation rules do not apply. i.e. Contract >$X = 4x 1st round picks, >$Y = 2x 1st round, 1x 2nd round, 1x 3rd round, etc.

If Vegas selects the RFA in the expansion draft then it's their RFA. When they sign that player the former club is due no RFA Compensation because they don't hold his rights--Vegas got them in the expansion draft. If Vegas doesn't select the RFA in the expansion draft and later signs the player to an Offer Sheet then yes the full RFA Compensation rules apply.

The 72 hour window is a bonus to Vegas and the teams, not a fundamental alternation of the previously published expansion draft rules. It gives Vegas an opportunity to talk to pending UFA/RFA's before they have to make a decision in the expansion draft. It also could give other teams a benefit--how many clubs wouldn't mind if Vegas signed one of their pending UFA's as the expansion pick?

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06-14-2017, 05:35 PM
  #166
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Hmh. That's legit reading too. I really wish they published the rules. Maybe now that they're about done tweaking them.

Though, those supposedly having access to the rules seem to talk a lot about Vegas signing FAs when talking of RFA picks, as that was the de facto method of picking one.

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06-16-2017, 11:25 AM
  #167
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Actually, yeah, it would be stupid thing to let a Free Agent player in full control over if Vegas can take him or not, like it would be in my apparently faulty understanding of the rules. There would be a massive moral hazard with the FA and his team to not sign a previously negotiated contract until after the XD, because a trusted player would be effectively protected by his just not agreeing to terms with Vegas.

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06-19-2017, 01:05 PM
  #168
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The NHL's summary of what and when the Knights must do for the expansion and regular draft. List to be handed over to NHL by 10AM ET on Wednesday, Jun 20. List of 30 players to be disclosed to everyone else that evening at 8PM ET.



https://www.nhl.com/news/next-steps-...ts/c-289968452

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06-19-2017, 01:26 PM
  #169
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The NHL's summary of what and when the Knights must do for the expansion and regular draft. List to be handed over to NHL by 10AM ET on Wednesday, Jun 20. List of 30 players to be disclosed to everyone else that evening at 8PM ET.



https://www.nhl.com/news/next-steps-...ts/c-289968452
I'm sure the list or at least names will be leaked earlier. Players will start finding out and start posting things on twitter, beat writers will find out, etc.

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06-19-2017, 01:31 PM
  #170
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I'm sure the list or at least names will be leaked earlier. Players will start finding out and start posting things on twitter, beat writers will find out, etc.
I don't know, if GMGM is really shutting down the 31 party talks this evening, there's only going to be two real points of potential leakage. The front office in Las Vegas, and the league office in New York City.

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06-19-2017, 11:10 PM
  #171
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Farm team roster?

So Vegas takes 30 players. How do they fill out their minor league affiliates?

Do they already have a farm team?

Thanks

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06-20-2017, 08:09 AM
  #172
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Same way other teams do: entry draft, undrafted free agents, free agents.

Sharing AHL affiliate this season.

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06-20-2017, 10:33 AM
  #173
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Same way other teams do: entry draft, undrafted free agents, free agents.

Sharing AHL affiliate this season.
A vanity correction, if I may.

Las Vegas isn't sharing the Chicago Wolves, the Wolves are the affiliate of the Knights. The Blues will provide some players until they figure out their affiliate next season, but the Chicago operation is completely controlled by the Golden Knights.

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06-20-2017, 12:29 PM
  #174
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Two more possible sources: trades, waiver claims (which then have to go through waivers again to be assigned to AHL team).

StL will probably have one goalie, couple of D and handful of F in AHL or ECHL.

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06-20-2017, 01:54 PM
  #175
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A vanity correction, if I may.

Las Vegas isn't sharing the Chicago Wolves, the Wolves are the affiliate of the Knights. The Blues will provide some players until they figure out their affiliate next season, but the Chicago operation is completely controlled by the Golden Knights.
I would add historically the Wolves have been the most difficult organization for NHL teams to deal with. Vegas is the exclusive affiliate, but it might not be correct to say the Wolves are completely controlled by them.

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