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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phoenix CXXVIII: The Grass is Always Greener On The Other Side Of The I-17

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Old
06-18-2017, 11:21 AM
  #351
The Feckless Puck
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Originally Posted by Fairview View Post
Bad news for Arizona.
Of course it is. I can't win, can I? First it was "ONLY ARIZONA CAN BE THIS AWFUL" and then when I point out that it's not just us, "BAD NEWS FOR ARIZONA!"

Y'know, at some point you have to whittle down your list of all the awful things about Arizona that you've been keeping and focus on the ones that are actually pertinent to the discussion at hand. (Mod)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
surely you are not suggesting the league will undertake normal due diligence in approving this deal.
I don't think the league knows what the phrase "due diligence" means, but I do think that they're going to make sure that this team stays afloat here for one more season. Barroway only has to pay the bills for the upcoming season before he flips the franchise. It's not like we're talking about him as having - or even needing to have - a long-term plan of attack for this team because obviously, based on the way his loans are structured, he's definitely a short-termer.

What that means is that the NHL, for all its idiocy and old-boys-in-leather-Barcoloungers atmosphere, wouldn't let Barroway take over the team and then be unable to pay any of his immediate bills. And remember, Barroway has $17 million coming from his slice of the expansion pie that will help offset this season's bottom line a bit.

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feckless [fek-lis]: ineffective; incompetent; futile. So, my Coyotes.

Last edited by Killion; 06-18-2017 at 01:29 PM.. Reason: plz refrain frm assigning motive...
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Old
06-18-2017, 11:29 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
I do. I would guess that that was - and will be - the first question from the NHL to Barroway before the sale is officially approved.

Now, does he have enough capital to meet the floor this year AND any more years in the future? That's probably a good question. Sure seems like he's set things up so that it's a moot point. But short term I think it's just ludicrous to suppose that Barroway could buy the team and not have money left over for them to actually compete.
"Officially approved"? No. Theres nothing to approve IMO. This whole deal has Bettmans finger prints all over it, exit strategy. Inside job. The NHL Executive Committee will simply "rubber stamp" this transaction dispensing with the usual due-diligence & formalities. Even if the franchise cant or doesnt meet the floor, circumventing the "intent" of the CAP in assuming wooden contracts they'll be excused, given a bye. Dalys' already done it publicly when a reporter had the temerity to ask him about the Pronger & Datsyuk contracts so I wouldnt expect any change from the Leagues previous position & conduct when it comes to enforcing their own rules & requirements under which every other team is obligated & required to operate. Just hang in there Boys. Cavalry on the way. Wont be goin down like the Alamo. Oh, and meanwhile, go negotiate with the Tribes, Sarver & the City of Phoenix. Hafta keep up appearances. The Coyotes are a "special case". Low budget. Various ways to give the impression that they are in compliance with the CBA, the NHL including Central & Broadcast Revenues, uncapped RS etc already in their budget to prop up the club through the 17/18 season. I agree that Barroway does have through MGG the credit available included in the loans to carry the club & absorb at least partial projected losses through the coming season though whether its 100%, 75% or 50% no idea. Whatever it is, no problem, Leagues got his back, losses retrieved & then some when the clubs sold off-market.... If anyones buying into the theory that Andrew Barroway as titular "owner" of this club intends to make a stand in Arizona including the funding of a new facility, riding out the losses for at least the next 4-5yrs then Id like them to explain to me where he finds the money to do so & how if thats what he & the NHL expect people to believe that this beyond heavily leveraged deal (like the one foisted on the public in 2013 with IA) makes any sense whatsoever in the face of so many obstacles & facts... Its irrational, doesnt add up, compute. The numbers simply dont pencil out. Not unless Andrew Barroway has a super top secret pipeline to wealthy off-shore investors in the UAE, Hong Kong, the former Soviet States or wherever... good luck with that.


Last edited by Killion; 06-18-2017 at 11:40 AM..
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Old
06-18-2017, 11:29 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
Of course it is. I can't win, can I? First it was "ONLY ARIZONA CAN BE THIS AWFUL" and then when I point out that it's not just us, "BAD NEWS FOR ARIZONA!"

Y'know, at some point you have to whittle down your list of all the awful things about Arizona that you've been keeping and focus on the ones that are actually pertinent to the discussion at hand. (Mod)


I don't think the league knows what the phrase "due diligence" means, but I do think that they're going to make sure that this team stays afloat here for one more season. Barroway only has to pay the bills for the upcoming season before he flips the franchise. It's not like we're talking about him as having - or even needing to have - a long-term plan of attack for this team because obviously, based on the way his loans are structured, he's definitely a short-termer.

What that means is that the NHL, for all its idiocy and old-boys-in-leather-Barcoloungers atmosphere, wouldn't let Barroway take over the team and then be unable to pay any of his immediate bills. And remember, Barroway has $17 million coming from his slice of the expansion pie that will help offset this season's bottom line a bit.
Feckless,
You have information here that is news to me. I thought the expansion checks had already cleared

You seem to be saying that, while the League had its 500M already, the individual teams do not.

Please enlighten about this...


Last edited by Killion; 06-18-2017 at 01:30 PM.. Reason: qtd edit...
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Old
06-18-2017, 11:42 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Feckless,
You have information here that is news to me. I thought the expansion checks had already cleared

You seem to be saying that, while the League had its 500M already, the individual teams do not.

Please enlighten about this...
The final installment of Foley's $500M payout didn't clear until about 3 months ago, so the 1/30th of that pie that Barroway gets likely hasn't been disbursed yet. I'm pretty sure that Barroway began his negotiations to buy out the other partners before the NHL issued their per-franchise payments, and I doubt the NHL would have cut the check before it was clear who was going to cash it.

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06-18-2017, 11:51 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
Of course it is. I can't win, can I? First it was "ONLY ARIZONA CAN BE THIS AWFUL" and then when I point out that it's not just us, "BAD NEWS FOR ARIZONA!"

Y'know, at some point you have to whittle down your list of all the awful things about Arizona that you've been keeping and focus on the ones that are actually pertinent to the discussion at hand. (Mod)



I don't think the league knows what the phrase "due diligence" means, but I do think that they're going to make sure that this team stays afloat here for one more season. Barroway only has to pay the bills for the upcoming season before he flips the franchise. It's not like we're talking about him as having - or even needing to have - a long-term plan of attack for this team because obviously, based on the way his loans are structured, he's definitely a short-termer.

What that means is that the NHL, for all its idiocy and old-boys-in-leather-Barcoloungers atmosphere, wouldn't let Barroway take over the team and then be unable to pay any of his immediate bills. And remember, Barroway has $17 million coming from his slice of the expansion pie that will help offset this season's bottom line a bit.
I wish there was a place where we could discuss the financial moves made by this team's ownership, salary cap issues,finances and possible relocation...wait a minute...


Last edited by Killion; 06-18-2017 at 01:30 PM.. Reason: qtd edit...
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06-18-2017, 11:57 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
The final installment of Foley's $500M payout didn't clear until about 3 months ago, so the 1/30th of that pie that Barroway gets likely hasn't been disbursed yet. I'm pretty sure that Barroway began his negotiations to buy out the other partners before the NHL issued their per-franchise payments, and I doubt the NHL would have cut the check before it was clear who was going to cash it.
Right. His $500M Expansion Fee was paid in 3 instalments, the last clearing in late February. All done electronically of course. Foley joking about how he'd done $5B deals with less paperwork that in this case also included his wifes signature on a voluminous number of documents. Just how & when those funds were disbursed no idea however as IA was into the League & the NHL backed LOC for tens upon tens of millions... and with the obvious dysfunction and internecine warfare then going on full throttle (of which very little to nothing was reported) between the LeBlanc/Drummond/Tippett & Barroway camps, buyout trigger about to be pulled, highly unlikely the NHL would be "gifting" these guys nearly $20M. Either side. Those funds applied to debt and a loss, write-off until the clubs really & truly sold for cash money out of market. Also possible the other 29 teams received more than $17M, the $17M that would have under normal circumstances gone to them dispersed to the other clubs. Little perk for playing nice, keeping your mouths shut, sticking with the plan, being patient.


Last edited by Killion; 06-18-2017 at 12:06 PM..
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Old
06-18-2017, 11:59 AM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairview View Post
I wish there was a place where we could discuss the financial moves made by this team's ownership, salary cap issues,finances and possible relocation...wait a minute...
And we've been doing that. Where we get mussed up is going off script and talking about inevitable relocation, the assumed natural idiocy of the ownership, the inherent unsuitability of the market, etc., rather than dealing with the empirical information and proper context.

The existence of Vegas does complicate the Coyotes' position as a pressure release for cap-threatened teams, but it isn't some apocalyptic nightmare that spells disaster. It just means more work for Chayka, and honestly he's still in a pretty good position. If you look at his expansion exposure list, all of his best assets are either naturally or selectively protected, and what's left is so eminently disposable that Vegas might actually just take a rain check rather than subject themselves to picking from that very shallow pool.

In other words, Chayka is not cornered against a brick wall with crosshairs on his forehead here.

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06-18-2017, 01:26 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
And we've been doing that. Where we get mussed up is going off script and talking about inevitable relocation, the assumed natural idiocy of the ownership, the inherent unsuitability of the market, etc., rather than dealing with the empirical information and proper context.

The existence of Vegas does complicate the Coyotes' position as a pressure release for cap-threatened teams, but it isn't some apocalyptic nightmare that spells disaster. It just means more work for Chayka, and honestly he's still in a pretty good position. If you look at his expansion exposure list, all of his best assets are either naturally or selectively protected, and what's left is so eminently disposable that Vegas might actually just take a rain check rather than subject themselves to picking from that very shallow pool.

In other words, Chayka is not cornered against a brick wall with crosshairs on his forehead here.
I think that it is of interest to discuss the salary situation. Former owner LeBlank made a comment a while back about "scary losses" and that was with the Pronger contract in effect. Well, if I am correct in thinking that the Pronger contract is no longer in play, then it will likely have to be replaced in some form, either with another same type contract or one where they will have to actually have to pay out a similar amount in real $$. That will create even greater losses this season than last. For an ownership group that was already claiming scary losses in the past , I think it will be very interesting to see what they will do.

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06-18-2017, 01:35 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Fairview View Post
I wish there was a place where we could discuss the financial moves made by this team's ownership, salary cap issues,finances and possible relocation...wait a minute...
Let's see......

Somewhere amid the random copious shmoozling..... the current salary cap thing has been well explained......

We're still waiting to see real details about Barroway buying out the minority owners to appear..... if they ever do

Same goes for the arena situation.....

And there's a docu-drama currently playing on YouTube.... I hear the director's pretty good.


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Originally Posted by Fairview View Post
I think that it is of interest to discuss the salary situation. Former owner LeBlank made a comment a while back about "scary losses" and that was with the Pronger contract in effect. Well, if I am correct in thinking that the Pronger contract is no longer in play, then it will likely have to be replaced in some form, either with another same type contract or one where they will have to actually have to pay out a similar amount in real $$. That will create even greater losses this season than last. For an ownership group that was already claiming scary losses in the past , I think it will be very interesting to see what they will do.

You forgot Datsyuk is coming off too. The Bolland contract IIRC is the only one left and goes two more years. Plus buyouts.

If Chayka feels the cap space can be used like an asset, then more power to him. I know a lot of HF posters think it's cheating, but I suspect Vegas will be doing the same thing at the outset.


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06-18-2017, 01:39 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
The final installment of Foley's $500M payout didn't clear until about 3 months ago, so the 1/30th of that pie that Barroway gets likely hasn't been disbursed yet. I'm pretty sure that Barroway began his negotiations to buy out the other partners before the NHL issued their per-franchise payments, and I doubt the NHL would have cut the check before it was clear who was going to cash it.
If the NHL had any sense that money would have end up in escrow until the concussion lawsuit settlement. Off course this is the NHL so it already long gone.

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06-18-2017, 01:43 PM
  #361
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You think Ryan Miller wants to sign with this gong show or doesn't have better options available?
Ryan Miller will not have a lot of options available if he wants to start, no. Especially since he's been rumored to have specific geographic locations in mind.

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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Ryan Miller isn't going to be the only candidate out there.

Chayka expects at least 10 decent goalies will be unprotected and Vegas won't be picking all of them.
I don't the Coyotes will have any problems finding an available goalie. Someone's going to want to start in the NHL and the Coyotes have a spot for one.

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06-18-2017, 01:48 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
If the NHL had any sense that money would have end up in escrow until the concussion lawsuit settlement. Off course this is the NHL so it already long gone.
Gonna cost a lot more than $500M if the league loses & has to settle and even then given their legal track record.... appeal upon appeal.... we'll probably all be dead by the time they do settle if they lose or get creative, declare BK, "not for profit" status, just watch the gymnastics, legal calisthenics .... have to take it up with the individual clubs & ownership (many of whom are deceased) and so on & so on. Dealing with a hydra-headed reptile in the NHL. Though you do make a good point madhi.

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06-18-2017, 01:55 PM
  #363
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Gonna cost a lot more than $500M if the league loses & has to settle and even then given their legal track record.... appeal upon appeal.... we'll probably all be dead by the time they do settle if they lose or get creative, declare BK, "not for profit" status, just watch the gymnastics, legal calisthenics .... have to take it up with the individual clubs & ownership (many of whom are deceased) and so on & so on. Dealing with a hydra-headed reptile in the NHL. Though you do make a good point madhi.
I was going to say even doubling the number of teams wouldn't bring in enough fees to cover it.



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06-18-2017, 01:57 PM
  #364
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Gonna cost a lot more than $500M if the league loses & has to settle and even then given their legal track record.... appeal upon appeal.... we'll probably all be dead by the time they do settle if they lose or get creative, declare BK, "not for profit" status.... have to take it up with the individual clubs & ownership (many of whom are deceased) and so on & so on. Dealing with a hydra-headed reptile in the NHL. Though you do make a good point madhi.
It cost the NFL a billion to settle. I don't see how they can do it cheaper. The NFL after all never tolerated that their players fight each other on the field.

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06-18-2017, 02:06 PM
  #365
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I don't the Coyotes will have any problems finding an available goalie. Someone's going to want to start in the NHL and the Coyotes have a spot for one.
Exactly. Not a huge problem at all, unloading Smith & getting what they did in return a good move and certainly one thats popular with the fan base. Clearly Flames GM Brad Trelivings former association & ties with the Coyotes played into the deal as really the Yotes made out like Bandits on this one however to hear Treliving talk about it... "greatest athlete for a Goalie Ive ever seen" and so on & so forth, Calgary needed a Starter, be interesting to see how Smith rebounds. If he can regain his All Star form then ya, Calgary will have done well. As it is, Arizonas' eating 25% of his $4.66M contract as part of the deal.

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06-18-2017, 02:14 PM
  #366
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Exactly. Not a huge problem at all, unloading Smith & getting what they did in return a good move and certainly one thats popular with the fan base. Clearly Flames GM Brad Trelivings former association & ties with the Coyotes played into the deal as really the Yotes made out like Bandits on this one however to hear Treliving talk about it... "greatest athlete for a Goalie Ive ever seen" and so on & so forth, Calgary needed a Starter, be interesting to see how Smith rebounds. If he can regain his All Star form then ya, Calgary will have done well. As it is, Arizonas' eating 25% of his $4.66M contract as part of the deal.
Honestly, after the Smith trade how many teams beside Arizona and maybe Winnipeg (I'm assuming LV takes some combination of MAF+Grubauer/Pickard/Mrazek/etc) are looking for a starting goaltender? None are coming to mind.

Detroit and Vancouver, by all accounts, should be rebuilding and rebuilding hard (EDIT: not that Arizona isn't, but you get my point.) Philadelphia? Don't know their situation that well. Am I forgetting some team?

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06-18-2017, 02:39 PM
  #367
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that's the point, tho. given the way the buyout is said to be structured with little equity and massive debt, it sure seems barroway doesnt have two dimes to rub together.

i dont think its inane to wonder if he does actually have the money to even hit the floor.
That's not the point. Your speculation about Barroway and the Coyotes debt load is all well and good, it's also completely irrelevant to them having to reaching the floor, the NHL will not let a team play if they aren't cap compliant.

You think the NHL is going to just let the Coyotes start forfeiting games? I mean all the conspiracy theories here about how the NHL owns the team and everybody is a puppet, but somehow while doing all that the NHL is going to let all their machinations fail because the Coyotes aren't cap compliant? You think they don't know the approx. amount of money they need to spend to get to the floor?

Barroway did this whole deal so it could fail with the team not able to play before he can flip it or whatever his endgame is? Acting like they don't know the actual costs to keep the team running when everybody shouts about how much they lose is really as silly as it gets, they know how much they need to cover.

If you want to say they're losing money and he'll have to absorb losses, I won't really argue with that, since it seems pretty obvious they lose money, but they still have to operate. He's been 'involved' with the Coyotes for like 2+ years or whatever, it's hard to imagine he's oblivious to the costs.

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06-18-2017, 02:59 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by OmniCube View Post
Honestly, after the Smith trade how many teams beside Arizona and maybe Winnipeg (I'm assuming LV takes some combination of MAF+Grubauer/Pickard/Mrazek/etc) are looking for a starting goaltender? None are coming to mind.

Detroit and Vancouver, by all accounts, should be rebuilding and rebuilding hard (EDIT: not that Arizona isn't, but you get my point.) Philadelphia? Don't know their situation that well. Am I forgetting some team?
Not entirely well versed on that subject league wide OC. More a discussion for the NHL General Board here at hf. Much broader topic base, player movement, team requirements etc.
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That's not the point. Your speculation about Barroway and the Coyotes debt load is all well and good, it's also completely irrelevant to them having to reaching the floor, the NHL will not let a team play if they aren't cap compliant.

You think the NHL is going to just let the Coyotes start forfeiting games? I mean all the conspiracy theories here about how the NHL owns the team and everybody is a puppet, but somehow while doing all that the NHL is going to let all their machinations fail because the Coyotes aren't cap compliant? You think they don't know the approx. amount of money they need to spend to get to the floor?

Barroway did this whole deal so it could fail with the team not able to play before he can flip it or whatever his endgame is? Acting like they don't know the actual costs to keep the team running when everybody shouts about how much they lose is really as silly as it gets, they know how much they need to cover.
Sure he/they know all about it. They'll appear to be entirely "cap compliant" of that you can be certain. Whether or not its all Barroway's money (or his credit facilities) almost moot, not something to get hung up on regardless of whatever particular theory you think most credible or not. If he doesnt have the $$$ then the NHL covers whatever shorts he may have. If it means bending the rules a little bit to shave a few million off the losses, loophole with a plausible excuse and therefore "cap compliant" then so be it. But make no mistake; Coyotes = Special Status. Ward of the League. And no one's going to complain about it publicly or privately, none of the other teams & risk the enmity & wrath of Bettman & Daly, face the consequences. Bottom feeding team. Fine. Call it a "Youth Movement" as they have. New arena, Stanley Cup on the horizon. This is what they are now selling. Believe it or dont believe it as you see fit based on all available facts.


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06-18-2017, 03:16 PM
  #369
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Light reading......

Quick summary of the Arizona Coyotes ownership-go-round from Craig Morgan....

https://www.fanragsports.com/nhl/coy...oyotes-owners/

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06-18-2017, 05:53 PM
  #370
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06-18-2017, 06:55 PM
  #371
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Campbell is known to be a tool towards all the southern market teams.

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06-18-2017, 08:13 PM
  #372
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from craig morgan article:

By June 2011, Hulsizer had walked away from the deal citing irreconcilable differences with Glendale, and opposition from the local watchdog Goldwater Institute. But there were also questions about Hulsizer’s available funding. Privately, coaches and players were relieved. By several accounts, Hulsizer embarrassed himself at a team dinner on the road and never recovered in the eyes of the team.


Did Hulsizer try paying for the meal by selling the parking rights to the restaurant? Or did he dine and dash?

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06-18-2017, 08:40 PM
  #373
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Did Hulsizer try paying for the meal by selling the parking rights to the restaurant? Or did he dine and dash?
... I dont think the actual details of whatever it was he said or did were ever revealed.... or if they were Ive forgotten. Strange guy. Couldnt close, seal the deal in St.Louis either with Checketts; failed to meet the NHL's minimum requirements in cash to financing ratios but with Arizona, obviously that irrelevant. Talk about Double Standards... So ya, the franchise dodged a bullet with that one. He did of course wind up as Minority (27%) Shareholder in Minnesota, however since bought out by Craig Leipold as your likely aware.

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06-19-2017, 03:05 AM
  #374
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Light reading......

Quick summary of the Arizona Coyotes ownership-go-round from Craig Morgan....

https://www.fanragsports.com/nhl/coy...oyotes-owners/
Funny how he credits IA for saving the franchise & keeping them in in Arizona, but neglects to mention that they would've been long gone had Glendale not capitulated to the hostage demands of the NHL & coughed up $50M cash over two seasons.

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06-19-2017, 07:21 AM
  #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
I hate non-sequitur pot-shots like that tweet. Chayka is doing exactly what the Coyotes should be doing right now: rebuilding. For an inexperienced guy, seems like he's not doing too bad. What is he supposed to do, do his best John Ferguson Jr impression and find his own Rask for Andrew Raycroft trade and Jason Blake signings in order to squeak together a mediocre roster capable of a 1st-round massacre at the hands of the top teams in the conference? Yeah, we did that in Toronto for a while...it's not ****ing amusing.

Whether or not the Coyotes move at the end of this year is not realistically going to be affected by the outcome of their performance on the ice. Not at this stage. If they get a new arena situation, they'll stay long-term. If they don't, they will only stay until those in charge pull the plug because the Glendale bridge is torched, quenched with bodily fluids, and then torched again. Since Chayka has no control over these events, he needs to do the best thing for his team, and that is to continue to rebuild.

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