HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Winnipeg Jets
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Expansion Draft - Part III [Protected lists Released]

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-18-2017, 11:10 PM
  #326
Zhamnov5GoalGame
Registered User
 
Zhamnov5GoalGame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Posts: 1,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsFan815 View Post
#13 and #43 (and likely #74) picks should be off limits. If you are a 'draft and develop' team you need to draft (and draft well) in the 2nd round. So far the Jets have drafted in 2nd round in only 50% of their drafts. That's not good and one of them was Sutter. If they give that pick away again than they will have drafted in the 2nd only ~43% of the drafts.

So NHL teams roll with only 6 forwards now?
At some point the team has to play for now.
Our young superstars will all be commanding big pay raises in the near future. The Jets have also hit on way more players then your average team in the draft. The 2015 draft has been ridiculously good for us for example. All but one player under contract now (I believe)

A team doesn't roll with only 6 forwards but you need a range of players. Dano is not good enough to be one of our "scoring" players and doesn't fit the role of a checker. So were not likely to utilize him in the way that gets the most out of him. So were better off with other players in those roles that are better suited for them.

Zhamnov5GoalGame is offline  
Old
06-18-2017, 11:40 PM
  #327
Zhamnov5GoalGame
Registered User
 
Zhamnov5GoalGame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Posts: 1,159
vCash: 500
On the main boards in discussing "what if the Jets had good goaltending"? I saw someone mention that a good trade for both sides would be...

LVGN - get Comrie
Jets - get Raanta

I'm not sure how I feel about this?
Especially since I think Raanta's contract is up soon.

Obviously a waiver exempt goalie would hold a lot of value.
I would be more ok with this if it was part of a move that also included a LHD for us and some picks / prospects for them.

I do think that we'll have trouble outbidding other teams for a LHD from Vegas (because we have proven to be careful and frugal in this area).

Zhamnov5GoalGame is offline  
Old
06-18-2017, 11:56 PM
  #328
Mortimer Snerd
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,633
vCash: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
According to Dreger the deal is to lay off forwards. If it includes CDH then who is Vegas selecting.....Thomas Hickey?

But that is completely unbelievable. They are not only going to lose CDH but also a 1st just to protect Pelech? Snow would have to have completely lost his mind.

Mortimer Snerd is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 12:03 AM
  #329
Aavco Cup
Registered User
 
Aavco Cup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 25,475
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by D1G View Post
I feel ya. I got roasted for saying my eye test of Enstrom this past few years was concerning for me. Then all the charts were brought out saying he is as good as tanev.
This is the way I look at these things

Eye test says X
Stats say X

(Pretty good chance X is real)

Eye test says X
Stats say Y

(Difference needs further investigation. X may be the answer or Y but probably the answer is Z)

Stats have opened my eyes on many players. It's almost never black and white.

One truth though is that stats have fewer biases than eyes do. But stats can never tell the whole story.

Aavco Cup is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 12:09 AM
  #330
nobody important
Won'tGetFooledAgain
 
nobody important's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: a quiet suburb
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
But that is completely unbelievable. They are not only going to lose CDH but also a 1st just to protect Pelech? Snow would have to have completely lost his mind.
Seems like a pretty level-headed guy to me, Mort.


nobody important is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 12:14 AM
  #331
Aavco Cup
Registered User
 
Aavco Cup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 25,475
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
But that is completely unbelievable. They are not only going to lose CDH but also a 1st just to protect Pelech? Snow would have to have completely lost his mind.
This is just weird. It's like the Isles don't want anyone to know how the value their players so they put out this bizarre list. I think they have overthought things.

Aavco Cup is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 12:49 AM
  #332
Mortimer Snerd
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,633
vCash: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB88 View Post
That's the good thing with Detroit.
Outside of Mrazek they have nothing valuable exposed.
One and a third bad seasons since he played well. I'm not sure he is a lot better than Hutch. I don't have him on my list. We don't need yet another reclamation project in goal. We need a starter. At least 1a/b.

Mortimer Snerd is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 01:01 AM
  #333
Mortimer Snerd
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,633
vCash: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsFan815 View Post
He doesn't need to score 45 points on the Jets playing on the 3rd/4th line to be a successful player for the Jets and still likely score more than Armia or Copp. Him putting up points on Vegas would just be proof that he's a very good player not given a shot by Maurice.
Even if Maurice loved him he wouldn't get the opportunity with the Jets that he will get with Vegas. He will play top 6 for them and 1st PP. His 45 pts with VGK won't prove diddly squat.

He's a better offensive player than Copp but he isn't as good all around and he isn't as useful. He's had opportunity and couldn't take advantage.

Even if he falls flat on his face with LVK I'm sure we will be seeing posts here in 5 years saying that it is all Maurice's fault.

Please, just let it go.

Mortimer Snerd is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 01:24 AM
  #334
Mortimer Snerd
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,633
vCash: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChef View Post
Better be getting a LHD AND a goalie for that cost. If your just talking goalies, no way we give up Petan & #43 IMO.
That would be very expensive for a crap goalie who won't solve our problem. It would be cheap for a good goalie who would solve our problem. Why would we make any trade for an inadequate goalie?

Mortimer Snerd is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 01:26 AM
  #335
Mortimer Snerd
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,633
vCash: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB88 View Post
The problem with those 2 is that they will be UFA's and we know how good they are.
How is that a problem? You've just described what we need.

Mortimer Snerd is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 01:36 AM
  #336
WPGChief
Rookie User
 
WPGChief's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raideralex99 View Post
I don't understand why all these charts are always being used. Whatever happen to watching a player and judging for yourself how good or bad they are.
Seriously looking at player's stats are misleading
... you have to take in consideration line mates, bad teams, road games, B2B games, injuries all of those things do not show up on the charts. Perfect example the Penguins are a better team (stats wise) without Crosby ... yeah right?
If you want to use stats use the ones in the playoffs only ... any player that can reached the next level (A game) in the playoffs is the player you want. He is playing against the best players with no advantage like B2B or travel schedule.
Here's how I like to put it.

Each season has 30 (soon to be 31) teams playing 82 games lasting 60 minutes each. Each team has roughly ~20 possible players (12 FWDs, 6D, 2G) that could play in each game. Sometimes, it is not the same 20 players from game-to-game, because of injuries or matchups, so each team is more around ~30 possible players that can play in a game in a given season. In each game, 5 skaters + 1 goalie can be on the ice at one time. These 5 skaters + 1 goalie are unlikely to face the same 5 opponent skaters the entire duration whenever they are on the ice throughout the game. Depending on how the game goes, your 5 skaters can be switched around and juggled. They play different styles and systems in 3 zones, and they flip sides for 1 period.

In 1230 regular season games, you're really gonna tell me that your eye test of maybe watching (if you're really dedicated) ~300 games caught everything and that should be the final determinant for a player's evaluation?


The numbers can be broken done, tested, analyzed, and everything in between to come to meaningful conclusions. There are still elements to the game that are not numerically tracked, to which some (including myself) must defer to the eye test, but eventually these things will (and already are internally) be tracked: your passes, types of passes, forecheck type and success, zone entries and exits, et cetera. These are 1s and 0s - they did or did not happen.

I'm ranting now and this is wholly off-topic, so lets try to bring it back: how do you think VGK is picking their team? Obviously they sent a lot of scouts to games, and probably have watched a lot of video, but what happens when a GM calls you and says "Well, we don't want you picking [NHL Player], but how about we give you a 2nd Rd Pick + [AHL Prospect]?" Oh **** - did VGK send a scout to watch this AHL prospect? No? Can look at the stats to help out. What if your scouts are all in a boardroom and two of them are arguing between what they saw of one player, and they are both firming sticking to their guns - how are you gonna decide which advice to take? Can look at the stats to help out.

If you really wanted to have the eye test rule all, you would have to get two scouts assigned to each team in the NHL, and then in terms of amateur scouting (in which analytics are slowly changing how teams draft) you need one scout to watch all the games of a team for one season. That's a lot of money on your payroll for a guy to watch games and hopefully see what actually happened and properly record it.

Or, you could just look at the stats and analysis, and come to the same conclusion a lot quicker or be challenged on your possibly incorrect prejudices for how a NHL player should play.


TL;DR: Don't rely strictly on your eye test or another person's eye test. This is how we get people saying Toews is a better player/leader/human being than Crosby.

WPGChief is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 05:59 AM
  #337
KingBogo
Admitted Homer
 
KingBogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 14,380
vCash: 1310
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChef View Post
Just saying, is it worth spending Petan & #43 & a prospect on a gamble. Far rather take a gamble on a bonafide starter that has carried a .913 average through his NHL carreer (Elliott) than a guy who has played backup for less than one-third of the games and played on a good defensive team as well.

Its a huge gamble to take on those young guys when you can get Elliott or something similar for nothing through UFA
So now we don't want Chevy to be aggressive to solve our goaltending problems? IMO Grubauer is exactly the type of player you target. Age 25 and still a RFA stuck behind one of the elite goalies in the NHL. Sure it is a bit of a gamble but at the same time Chevy could have just got us a true starter for the next decade. I'd immediately slot Grubauer ahead of Helly in terms of potential to be that elusive starter we have been searching for. Grubauer still has a relatively small sample size of 66 games but he is posting a career .922 SV%. To me this is worth a 2nd and Petan who is slowly drifting to the spare parts category and a prospect like Lemieux who is becoming a real long shot to ever suit up in the NHL.

KingBogo is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 06:16 AM
  #338
Board Bard
Dane-O-Mite
 
Board Bard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
So now we don't want Chevy to be aggressive to solve our goaltending problems? IMO Grubauer is exactly the type of player you target. Age 25 and still a RFA stuck behind one of the elite goalies in the NHL. Sure it is a bit of a gamble but at the same time Chevy could have just got us a true starter for the next decade. I'd immediately slot Grubauer ahead of Helly in terms of potential to be that elusive starter we have been searching for. Grubauer still has a relatively small sample size of 66 games but he is posting a career .922 SV%. To me this is worth a 2nd and Petan who is slowly drifting to the spare parts category and a prospect like Lemieux who is becoming a real long shot to ever suit up in the NHL.
I'm with you on that. I'd slot Gru above Raanta (and pretty much all the retreads) on the wish list. Being #2 to Holtby doesn't automatically mean you're a real #2. He could very well pan out to be a legit #1, and the gamble would be worth the price you mention. I mean, we can like Petan all we want, but wouldn't we like a real #1 goalie even more? Nothing ventured, nothing gained, fortune favours the bold, and all that.

Board Bard is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 08:02 AM
  #339
Jetfaninflorida
Southernmost Jet Fan
 
Jetfaninflorida's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,626
vCash: 500
If Toby waived, he doesn't mind leaving Winnipeg if it comes to that. The best news for me about this is that the Jets believe that Myers injury problems are largely behind him and that he can still play.

Jetfaninflorida is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 08:10 AM
  #340
BB88
Registered User
 
BB88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 20,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
So now we don't want Chevy to be aggressive to solve our goaltending problems? IMO Grubauer is exactly the type of player you target. Age 25 and still a RFA stuck behind one of the elite goalies in the NHL. Sure it is a bit of a gamble but at the same time Chevy could have just got us a true starter for the next decade. I'd immediately slot Grubauer ahead of Helly in terms of potential to be that elusive starter we have been searching for. Grubauer still has a relatively small sample size of 66 games but he is posting a career .922 SV%. To me this is worth a 2nd and Petan who is slowly drifting to the spare parts category and a prospect like Lemieux who is becoming a real long shot to ever suit up in the NHL.
I agree.

With the depth Chevy has built at forward it's going to be difficult for Petan to get a shot and losing him wouldn't impact the roster all that much.
There are Connor, Roslovic, Lowry, Armia, Matthias fighting for 3rd line spots. Petan is not the favourite to win a spot.

Where as Grubauer could end up as a game changer for Jets. Chevy has been given a golden opportunity to fix his biggest weakness and drive his team to playoffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetfaninflorida View Post
If Toby waived, he doesn't mind leaving Winnipeg if it comes to that. The best news for me about this is that the Jets believe that Myers injury problems are largely behind him and that he can still play.

His agent came out right away and said he has no intrest for playing for Vegas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
How is that a problem? You've just described what we need.
Elliott is 32 and has never played enough games to be a real starter. Jets don't need that.


Last edited by BB88: 06-19-2017 at 08:15 AM.
BB88 is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:12 AM
  #341
nobody important
Won'tGetFooledAgain
 
nobody important's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: a quiet suburb
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB88 View Post
His agent came out right away and said he has no intrest for playing for Vegas.
I'm sure that was intended to silence any speculation that Toby waived because he wants out of Winnipeg. What with the whole Trouba thing still fresh in people's minds, and all.

If there is no agreement to leave Toby be, and he gets picked, I expect he would go play there for his last year. I think he would see that as the honourable thing to do. And if he really wants to continue his career with the Jets, he can always re-sign here as an UFA.

People keep asking, what would the Jets do if they lost Enstrom for next year? Well, that's a situation that Chevy might have to face with every player every season. Tyler Myers being a perfect example. Any player is always just one shot or hit away from a season ending injury, and a GM has to deal with that.

nobody important is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:32 AM
  #342
SCP Guy
Registered User
 
SCP Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Peg
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,106
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB88 View Post


Elliott is 32 and has never played enough games to be a real starter. Jets don't need that.
What we think the Jets need and what the Jets think they need is two different stories...the Jets may not think they need to pay the price for a #1 starter....They may want a 1A 1B type guy to allow Helly to still continue to develop. In that case a guy like Elliott may be exactly what the organization is looking for ....who knows?

SCP Guy is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:35 AM
  #343
Aavco Cup
Registered User
 
Aavco Cup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 25,475
vCash: 300
Maybe they do want a shotblocker after all? #pleaseselectmarkstuart


Aavco Cup is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:36 AM
  #344
Aavco Cup
Registered User
 
Aavco Cup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 25,475
vCash: 300

Aavco Cup is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:50 AM
  #345
GJETson
Registered User
 
GJETson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
Maybe they do want a shotblocker after all? #pleaseselectmarkstuart

If this happens, then perhaps we can get DeHaan and Gru/Raanta both for a 3rd rounder?

GJETson is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:50 AM
  #346
D1G
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 336
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCP Guy View Post
What we think the Jets need and what the Jets think they need is two different stories...the Jets may not think they need to pay the price for a #1 starter....They may want a 1A 1B type guy to allow Helly to still continue to develop. In that case a guy like Elliott may be exactly what the organization is looking for ....who knows?
We could be looking for a career back up as well. Or growth from Hutch. We won't know till it happens

D1G is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:53 AM
  #347
jetsfaneh
Registered User
 
jetsfaneh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 177
vCash: 500
Some mentions of Brian Elliott and his better numbers being in front of a solid d in St Louis. But Raanta and Grubauer have pretty good teams in front of them as well. No telling what their numbers look like if they were in net for the Jets last year when our d was decimated by injuries.

As much as I would like the bigger splash of acquiring on of those latter guys I think there is too much UFA goaltending talent for the Jets to pony up for one of those guys.

Elliott, Bernier, Mason, Chad Johnson, Nilsson, Miller, Kinkaid, Condon. And only two of those guys are in their 30s. And goalies are voodoo so there could still be just as much upside with some of these guys. And you don't have to give up nothing for them.

If I am the Jets I grab one of those guys who will likely need to sign at a price and term that works well for the Jets. 2-3 years south of $4 with the opportunity to be "the guy" but also lets Helly develop without putting all the eggs in the Helly basket.

The UFA goalie market has more options this year than most. With not a lot of teams in need for a potential starter. Take whatever you would have used to trade for Raanta or Grubauer and use it to secure one of these exposed left handed defenseman.

jetsfaneh is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:53 AM
  #348
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 9,931
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
Rumored:

"It is believed that Vegas already has consideration deals arranged with Anaheim (to lay off Sami Vatanen and Josh Manson), with Columbus (to lay off Joonas Korpisalo, Josh Anderson and Jack Johnson), with the New York Islanders (to lay off Josh Bailey and Casey Cizikas) and Chicago (to take on Marcus Kruger)," Seravalli reports for TSN. "Columbus is believed to be parting with the No. 24 overall pick in this week's draft, the Islanders with a first-round pick, the Blackhawks with Trevor van Riemsdyk and a sizable package from Anaheim -- since the Ducks don't have a first-round pick this season, but a bevy of young depth on (defense) from which to deal."

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/ve...s-if-you-wish/

McPhee's message to GMs across the NHL, from Seravalli, says it all.

"You can negotiate your way out of this if you wish."

cbcwpg is offline  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:57 AM
  #349
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,192
vCash: 50
As speculated all along, there are D's and G's available that could help the Jets.

I wouldn't want Chevy to overpay drastically, and I am loath to part with 1st round picks, but I could put it on the table in a package if it got us back a D like De Haan and a goalie.

Huffer is online now  
Old
06-19-2017, 09:57 AM
  #350
D1G
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 336
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsfaneh View Post
Some mentions of Brian Elliott and his better numbers being in front of a solid d in St Louis. But Raanta and Grubauer have pretty good teams in front of them as well. No telling what their numbers look like if they were in net for the Jets last year when our d was decimated by injuries.

As much as I would like the bigger splash of acquiring on of those latter guys I think there is too much UFA goaltending talent for the Jets to pony up for one of those guys.

Elliott, Bernier, Mason, Chad Johnson, Nilsson, Miller, Kinkaid, Condon. And only two of those guys are in their 30s. And goalies are voodoo so there could still be just as much upside with some of these guys. And you don't have to give up nothing for them.

If I am the Jets I grab one of those guys who will likely need to sign at a price and term that works well for the Jets. 2-3 years south of $4 with the opportunity to be "the guy" but also lets Helly develop without putting all the eggs in the Helly basket.

The UFA goalie market has more options this year than most. With not a lot of teams in need for a potential starter. Take whatever you would have used to trade for Raanta or Grubauer and use it to secure one of these exposed left handed defenseman.
With Helly signing for around 2 mil I mean guessing maybe more. I'm thinking chevys price range will be under 2 mil for a goalie he acquires. 4 to 5 mil tops for our goalie position makes sense

D1G is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:22 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.