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Phoenix CXXVIII: The Grass is Always Greener On The Other Side Of The I-17

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Old
06-19-2017, 09:43 AM
  #376
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When the Edmonton Oilers did it, eventually they got McDavid, so what's the problem?

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06-19-2017, 09:54 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Boris Zubov View Post
Funny how he credits IA for saving the franchise & keeping them in in Arizona, but neglects to mention that they would've been long gone had Glendale not capitulated to the hostage demands of the NHL & coughed up $50M cash over two seasons.
The article's focus was on the different suitors of the franchise over the years. Not Glendale.

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06-19-2017, 10:31 AM
  #378
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I find myself unsure about the columnist in question, but Morgan's article points out a good portion of the story.....
Credit to the STHs, for sure.

Sorrow to the reality that the team arrived so suddenly, with so little market preparation, and without a good arena situation, even if they had a place to play.

Beginning reality: Not enough fans.
Beginning blame: None, because it was a new market. You can't expect more.

Sorrow to the reality that, because the original owners were NOT locals, and not blessed with Canyon-deep pockets, that the losses at the beginning led a change in ownership.

Continuing reality: Losses
Blame: None, although we could comment that the market hadn't warmed up, and the owners weren't working with it very well.

Sorrow to the reality that, in the next set of owners, the chief among them was a developer, who sought his money from municipalities and from his development, NOT directly from the team.

Continuing reality: More losses, although speculative here, and at least they got their own arena.
Blame: Primarily Ellman, who didn't know any better, but largely was ignoring the fans while he sought what he counted to be, bigger fish. And, yet, the market not warming up.

Sorrow to the reality that, out of bankruptcy, no one wanted to own the team in the market, so the NHL had to buy it, and then coerce 50M from Glendale under threat of relocation.

Reality: More losses, now being underwritten by the league.
Blame: The League, for not seeing that they have a critical patient on their hands.

Sorrow that IA ever happened. Had the team been allowed to move in 2013, there might have been a chance of another franchise coming back later. As it is, there is no chance.

Reality: Power-brokering leaves hard feelings. More losses.
Blame: IA, LeBlanc, NHL. Partially the reality that the market had never warmed up.

Overall saga:
No good owners.
Perhaps none were available.
None are now, apparently.
Because of all of that, the market would have had to be exceptional to rise to the occasion. That was NOT going to happen in a new, Southwest market.

Tragedy....


Last edited by Killion: 06-19-2017 at 11:32 AM. Reason: qtd delete...
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06-19-2017, 10:42 AM
  #379
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Had the team been allowed to move in 2013, there might have been a chance of another franchise coming back later. As it is, there is no chance.
Great post on the whole, but I have to disagree with ruling out Phoenix for all time. There is always a chance of a team coming back, so long as the size of the metro area doesn't crater. What's almost certainly out of the question is a team returning before all the players currently on stage are gone for a period of time significant enough for the air to clear.

If the Coyotes leave the market, I can't say we'll see a team in Phoenix within a generation, but who's to say what the market looks like in 30 years? Who's to say that, when Sarver's no longer owner of the Suns, and Bettman's not in charge of the league, and everyone in the AZ legislature is in Congress or a retirement home, and the City of Glendale has torn down GRA at the end of its useful life, that whoever owns the Suns at that point might not want an extra 41 guaranteed dates in his/her barn?

I hope, for the sake of the die hards, that we never have to find out how long it will take to clear out this particular Superfund cleanup site. I hope that the repairs to the team's relationships can all happen in place, and that they find an owner who can make the market work. If not though, someday I'm sure there will be a team in Phoenix again. Let's just hope that it comes after a couple decades of youth, college, and minor league hockey taking root in the community, with the cautionary tale of the Coyotes informing good decisions for whoever's bringing the NHL back.

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06-19-2017, 10:50 AM
  #380
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Great post on the whole, but I have to disagree with ruling out Phoenix for all time. There is always a chance of a team coming back, so long as the size of the metro area doesn't crater. What's almost certainly out of the question is a team returning before all the players currently on stage are gone for a period of time significant enough for the air to clear.

If the Coyotes leave the market, I can't say we'll see a team in Phoenix within a generation, but who's to say what the market looks like in 30 years? Who's to say that, when Sarver's no longer owner of the Suns, and Bettman's not in charge of the league, and everyone in the AZ legislature is in Congress or a retirement home, and the City of Glendale has torn down GRA at the end of its useful life, that whoever owns the Suns at that point might not want an extra 41 guaranteed dates in his/her barn?

I hope, for the sake of the die hards, that we never have to find out how long it will take to clear out this particular Superfund cleanup site. I hope that the repairs to the team's relationships can all happen in place, and that they find an owner who can make the market work. If not though, someday I'm sure there will be a team in Phoenix again. Let's just hope that it comes after a couple decades of youth, college, and minor league hockey taking root in the community, with the cautionary tale of the Coyotes informing good decisions for whoever's bringing the NHL back.
Not commenting on Phoenix with this post.....

30 years from now, hockey, like NFL football, is going to be an entirely different looking animal. Concussion lawsuits will ensure that.

If I had to guess, I would say that media rights will be down, because the young generation isn't of a mind to watch an entire game - they are multitaskers. Since media rights will be down, there will be fewer chances for new markets, because there will be even LESS national shared revenue.

Overall, I see live sports having a more difficult time. I think we are on the tail end of the golden age....

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06-19-2017, 11:50 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Boris Zubov View Post
Funny how he credits IA for saving the franchise & keeping them in in Arizona, but neglects to mention that they would've been long gone had Glendale not capitulated to the hostage demands of the NHL & coughed up $50M cash over two seasons.
Yeah. Revisionism at its worst. Whitewash, ignore inconvenient facts & truths.
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Not commenting on Phoenix with this post.....

30 years from now, hockey, like NFL football, is going to be an entirely different looking animal. Concussion lawsuits will ensure that.

If I had to guess, I would say that media rights will be down, because the young generation isn't of a mind to watch an entire game - they are multitaskers. Since media rights will be down, there will be fewer chances for new markets, because there will be even LESS national shared revenue.

Overall, I see live sports having a more difficult time. I think we are on the tail end of the golden age....
... yes its a bit off-topic for this thread, past & present however... speaks to the future, very important consideration; www.futureof.org/sports-2015/broadcasting/

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06-19-2017, 01:05 PM
  #382
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Yeah. Revisionism at its worst. Whitewash, ignore inconvenient facts & truths.
Meh..... as I said above, K. The story was a brief synopsis about the ownership revolving door... not Glendale. If it were a prerequisite to pass the BoH standard for "revisionism", War and Peace would be a short story in comparison.

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06-19-2017, 01:30 PM
  #383
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Meh..... as I said above, K. The story was a brief synopsis about the ownership revolving door... not Glendale. If it were a prerequisite to pass the BoH standard for "revisionism", War and Peace would be a short story in comparison.
... Correct. Good job I'm not Cap'n Morgan's Editor or Publisher, wouldve demanded he be completely thorough, then fact checked everything, article filling the days entire issue; front cover to back page Baby. Team stats, every transaction ever made on & off the ice, whole 9 yds.

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06-19-2017, 01:34 PM
  #384
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http://www.gwinnettprepsports.com/sp...359ba9c39.html

Nothing earth shattering, but I guess a quasi statement... from Friday...

Barroway, said president and CEO Anthony LeBlanc and president of hockey operations Gary Drummond stepped down from their duties, effective immediately.

"For years, Anthony has been the front office face of our franchise, and we sincerely appreciate all of his hard work and commitment to the club," Barroway said in a statement. "Anthony and Gary deserve a lot of credit for stabilizing the franchise. They did great things for hockey in Arizona and helped grow the game in the Valley. They have the lasting gratitude of every Coyotes fan and I want to wish them both the best of luck in the future."

***

Always hated these statements.. If they did such a good job why did they get ousted?

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06-19-2017, 01:42 PM
  #385
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If any CEO of any company, public or private, sells all of his shares and leaves, that sounds as much or more like "quit" than "ousted", surely?

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06-19-2017, 01:49 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Dirty Old Man View Post
If any CEO of any company, public or private, sells all of his shares and leaves, that sounds as much or more like "quit" than "ousted", surely?
I'm sure there was something in the operating agreement that would allow someone with the proper means and ownership to buy the other people out if they should so choose, regardless of job performance.

When ownership/partnership/whatever are involved, it's always another consideration and at-will employment doesn't really apply the way it would if the person was just an employee.

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06-19-2017, 01:52 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
http://www.gwinnettprepsports.com/sp...359ba9c39.html

Nothing earth shattering, but I guess a quasi statement... from Friday...

Barroway, said president and CEO Anthony LeBlanc and president of hockey operations Gary Drummond stepped down from their duties, effective immediately.

"For years, Anthony has been the front office face of our franchise, and we sincerely appreciate all of his hard work and commitment to the club," Barroway said in a statement. "Anthony and Gary deserve a lot of credit for stabilizing the franchise. They did great things for hockey in Arizona and helped grow the game in the Valley. They have the lasting gratitude of every Coyotes fan and I want to wish them both the best of luck in the future."

***

Always hated these statements.. If they did such a good job why did they get ousted?
Easy, because they sold their ownership position.

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06-19-2017, 01:52 PM
  #388
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06-19-2017, 01:53 PM
  #389
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I find myself unsure about the columnist in question, but Morgan's article points out a good portion of the story.....
Credit to the STHs, for sure.

Sorrow to the reality that the team arrived so suddenly, with so little market preparation, and without a good arena situation, even if they had a place to play.

Beginning reality: Not enough fans.
Beginning blame: None, because it was a new market. You can't expect more.

Sorrow to the reality that, because the original owners were NOT locals, and not blessed with Canyon-deep pockets, that the losses at the beginning led a change in ownership.

Continuing reality: Losses
Blame: None, although we could comment that the market hadn't warmed up, and the owners weren't working with it very well.

Sorrow to the reality that, in the next set of owners, the chief among them was a developer, who sought his money from municipalities and from his development, NOT directly from the team.

Continuing reality: More losses, although speculative here, and at least they got their own arena.
Blame: Primarily Ellman, who didn't know any better, but largely was ignoring the fans while he sought what he counted to be, bigger fish. And, yet, the market not warming up.

Sorrow to the reality that, out of bankruptcy, no one wanted to own the team in the market, so the NHL had to buy it, and then coerce 50M from Glendale under threat of relocation.

Reality: More losses, now being underwritten by the league.
Blame: The League, for not seeing that they have a critical patient on their hands.

Sorrow that IA ever happened. Had the team been allowed to move in 2013, there might have been a chance of another franchise coming back later. As it is, there is no chance.

Reality: Power-brokering leaves hard feelings. More losses.
Blame: IA, LeBlanc, NHL. Partially the reality that the market had never warmed up.

Overall saga:
No good owners.
Perhaps none were available.
None are now, apparently.
Because of all of that, the market would have had to be exceptional to rise to the occasion. That was NOT going to happen in a new, Southwest market.

Tragedy....
For who? Reality: Team is staying in AZ.

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06-19-2017, 01:54 PM
  #390
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For who? Reality: Team is staying in AZ.
That still remains to be seen, now does it not?

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06-19-2017, 01:54 PM
  #391
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If any CEO of any company, public or private, sells all of his shares and leaves, that sounds as much or more like "quit" than "ousted", surely?
Not arguing, but one could ask... was he forced to sell his shares? Given all that LeBlanc has said over the years, you would think he really wanted to stay with the team. That and the fact that he has disappeared off the face of the earth... JMO, but it would seem he's embarrassed by what has taken place.

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06-19-2017, 01:57 PM
  #392
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I'm sure there was something in the operating agreement that would allow someone with the proper means and ownership to buy the other people out if they should so choose, regardless of job performance.

When ownership/partnership/whatever are involved, it's always another consideration and at-will employment doesn't really apply the way it would if the person was just an employee.
Yeah maybe, but not having inside information, if such a "something" exists there's no reason to automatically assume that "something" was triggered...unless of course one likes to assume such things, yes? Otherwise, it's "they'll stay until I wanna get rid of them...well, or they die", with no input from the "other people" mentioned above.

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06-19-2017, 02:02 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Dirty Old Man View Post
If any CEO of any company, public or private, sells all of his shares and leaves, that sounds as much or more like "quit" than "ousted", surely?
Yeah, absolutely DOM, or "sold their interests, resigned" which is the narrative being prescribed to this particular situation. A brief piece in a Thunder Bay paper last week, interviewing Keith McCullough wherein he states that "Andrew Barroway came to us with an offer" and so on & so forth, that the exit was amicable, financially beneficial to the Minority Shareholders... "time to move on".... Thats the "official" line.... Unofficially & under-reported, off-mainstream-media-radar, rumours that both Bettman & Barroway were extremely unhappy with Anthony LeBlanc's performance beginning with the Lease & Mgmnt Contract being cancelled followed by the ASU situation amongst other issues and that rather than this being the "amicable parting of the ways, change of regime & direction" it was instead a Powerplay by the League with Barroway the conduit, "an ouster". That Barroway had a Shotgun Clause in his agreement with the NHL & IA that gave him a window of opportunity to buy out IA & did so. Forced out.


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06-19-2017, 02:06 PM
  #394
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Yeah maybe, but not having inside information, if such a "something" exists there's no reason to automatically assume that "something" was triggered...unless of course one likes to assume such things, yes? Otherwise, it's "they'll stay until I wanna get rid of them...well, or they die", with no input from the "other people" mentioned above.
Depending on their operating agreement, it could very easily just be that the majority owner exercised their right to take complete ownership via the method prescribed for no other reason than because he wanted to.

Sometimes it's really that simple, no trigger needed other than desire and ability.

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06-19-2017, 02:07 PM
  #395
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That still remains to be seen, now does it not?
True of all 31 teams.

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06-19-2017, 02:12 PM
  #396
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True of all 31 teams.
I would disagree. Unless the league folds, the Canadiens aren't going anywhere. Nor are the Leafs, the Rangers, etc

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06-19-2017, 02:18 PM
  #397
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Depending on their operating agreement, it could very easily just be that the majority owner exercised their right to take complete ownership via the method prescribed for no other reason than because he wanted to.

Sometimes it's really that simple, no trigger needed other than desire and ability.
Yep. This could well be the case however.... how then do you explain the over the top heavily leveraged fiscally imprudent if not totally insane financing structure that the League seems thus far to have not only very likely coordinated & facilitated but so too enabled & accepted?... and then refuse to talk about it? If everything was "amicable", hunky~dory, why arent corks being popped, the band playing, official statements from all parties concerned including "thank you's" from LeBlanc, Drummond et al; dawning of a new day, or is it in fact dawning of the dead, beginning of the end? Theres no way no how Barroway pulls this off with that kind of massive debt load, 100% financed. So whats really going on here? As has been the case with every ownership play since the franchise completely melted down in 08/09, this too reeks. Doesnt add up. "Amicable"? I have my doubts. Serious doubts about that.

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06-19-2017, 02:21 PM
  #398
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I would disagree. Unless the league folds, the Canadiens aren't going anywhere. Nor are the Leafs, the Rangers, etc
Probably not. But DOM is pointing out the ability is there for every team.

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06-19-2017, 02:22 PM
  #399
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Yep. This could well be the case however.... how then do you explain the over the top heavily leveraged fiscally imprudent if not totally insane financing structure that the League seems thus far to have not only very likely coordinated & facilitated but so too enabled & accepted?... and then refuse to talk about it? If everything was "amicable", hunky~dory, why arent corks being popped, the band playing, official statements from all parties concerned including "thank you's" from LeBlanc, Drummond et al; dawning of a new day, or is it in fact dawning of the dead, beginning of the end? Theres no way no how Barroway pulls this off with that kind of massive debt load, 100% financed. So whats really going on here?
It seems to me that if something was really working under the surface, something that's a little edgy, something that's perhaps part of a much larger "conspiracy" (for lack of a better word) that the best way to keep a lid on it would be to keep all the involved parties in line.

Buying out a bunch of people and handing them their hat, perhaps some people that didn't want to give up their dream of ownership, such as it was, doesn't seem like the best way to keep a lid on things. There's a lot more sources potential leaks once the the gang is broken up.

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06-19-2017, 02:23 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
http://www.gwinnettprepsports.com/sp...359ba9c39.html

Nothing earth shattering, but I guess a quasi statement... from Friday...

Barroway, said president and CEO Anthony LeBlanc and president of hockey operations Gary Drummond stepped down from their duties, effective immediately.

"For years, Anthony has been the front office face of our franchise, and we sincerely appreciate all of his hard work and commitment to the club," Barroway said in a statement. "Anthony and Gary deserve a lot of credit for stabilizing the franchise. They did great things for hockey in Arizona and helped grow the game in the Valley. They have the lasting gratitude of every Coyotes fan and I want to wish them both the best of luck in the future."

***

Always hated these statements.. If they did such a good job why did they get ousted?
Yeah, I think I'm gunna call BS on that statement.

Sure calling BS is a little tinfoil-y, but this whole saga is fishy, and this buyout has set off alarm bells for me since I first heard about it, and I have not seen anything that has pushed me off that opinion.

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