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How Many Points Would Gretzky Have In Today's Game?

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Old
06-19-2017, 09:50 AM
  #676
Tweed
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Originally Posted by Irato99 View Post
Ok then what is your conclusion on why he was barely hit, and what does it change in today's game?
PART OF THE REASON was anybody who messed with Gretz, would get picked up by his bodyguards. If you drop him into today's game, nobody has to worry about bodyguards, and can hit him with impunity.

Incidentally, him being the size that he was... it wouldn't take much to hit him in a way that would really impede his ability to put up prolific numbers.

I'm not downplaying Wayne's abilities here. That's not what I've been saying. I've been repeatedly saying that he wouldn't be built for the unabated rigours he would experience in today's game... IF... players play him like they do Sid.

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06-19-2017, 09:54 AM
  #677
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I can't believe this line of reasoning is still going on. These are the same dumb arguments that questioned his ability to survive in the NHL of his day, as well.

Gretzky is bigger than several players today, so obviously size isn't that big a factor. Marner looks like he's 14 for crying out loud.

Gretzky's hockey sense is still completely off the charts in relation to anyone today.. and before his back injury he was as agile as anyone I've seen at avoiding heavy contact.

He would be fine.

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06-19-2017, 09:58 AM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
It's like Einstein saying "Oh, I would not even graduate college now, the kids are so smart nowdays."
While this is still fresh...

You do realize that we are advancing intellectually and consequently, technologically... at an unprecedented rate, as a species, right?

History's replete with stories of outlier intellects who had to take the long-hard road around society, because they flew under the radar simply because they couldn't thrive in their class of peers.

If you drop 1900's Einstein into a highschool classroom today... or hand him an SAT... do you honestly think he'd do well enough to gain admission somewhere?

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06-19-2017, 10:01 AM
  #679
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Originally Posted by Tweed View Post
I already addressed the first 3. MSL was 4" shorter, and 20 lbs heavier... that makes him wayyyy more solid than Wayne. Sedins have an inch on Wayne, but almost 30lbs on him.

Pound per inch... Wayne is by far the smallest on the list of any of the names people have thrown at me in a counter.
And I'll ask again, how many times have any of these players been absolutely crushed? Why do you think only Wayne will despite being a vastly better player? Despite players from the 80s/90s saying they tried to hot him but couldn't because he was so good at avoiding hits?

Wow, it's almost like skilled smaller players are good at avoiding hits!

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06-19-2017, 10:01 AM
  #680
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Originally Posted by beukeboom View Post
I know it is completely surreal. There are actually people believing Crosby takes more abuse than they did in the 80's 90's. It is very hard to argue with people like that. Most of us old school guys cry ourselves to sleep due to how weak and soft the league is and then on top of that we have to read opinions like; "The league is tougher than ever now, it is criminal how much abuse Crosby gets".
I'm with you on this. This league is so watered down its funny. We have what....3 or 4 bonafide stars? Back in the day, almost every team had at least one bonafide star and sometimes 2 or 3.

Naw man, this league is watered down and soft. Need to cut the fat and go back to about 24 teams and spread out the talent of the teams we shake down. Then, you see some speed, skill and nastiness in every game.

31 teams? Garbage. Thats another 200 players we don't need. Imagine how much better this league would be if it was very hard to make a team?

Take those 200 players, and only the very good players could make it. 150 of those players would be in the AHL.

Its math. Its actual proof when us older guys say the league was much better back then because not every floater that picked his nose could make the team. You needed a big bag of knuckles to go along with your skill back then. Now players turtle, cowar, hide, and have to take 2 weeks off because they broke a nail.

You young guys need to go watch Slap Shot. It wasn't far off that.

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06-19-2017, 10:01 AM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Tweed View Post
If you drop 1900's Einstein into a highschool classroom today... or hand him an SAT... do you honestly think he'd do well enough to gain admission somewhere?
Of course, he's a genius and access to information has never been more convenient.

Are you seriously implying that you don't think Einstein could excel in high school today?

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06-19-2017, 10:02 AM
  #682
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I can't believe this line of reasoning is still going on. These are the same dumb arguments that questioned his ability to survive in the NHL of his day, as well.

Gretzky is bigger than several players today, so obviously size isn't that big a factor. Marner looks like he's 14 for crying out loud.

Gretzky's hockey sense is still completely off the charts in relation to anyone today.. and before his back injury he was as agile as anyone I've seen at avoiding heavy contact.

He would be fine.
Pound per inch, Marner's much bigger than Gretz. Marner's already missed more games in his first year due to injury than Gretzky did in his first 5+ years or something.

The guys that would hit Gretzky today (it only takes ONE)... are much more agile than the pylons of yesteryear. I seriously doubt 99 would be able to avoid a lot of what would be thrown at him today, especially considering today's players are specifically trained to close gaps and ride shadows. It's not like the 80s man... where a players were chasing each other around the ice. That IS the reason we have Dump and Chase. There's no room anymore.

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06-19-2017, 10:05 AM
  #683
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Originally Posted by Tweed View Post
So they speculated he didn't stand a chance. Then what happened? He barely ever got hit, unlike the rest of the players who hit each other.

I think you've gotten distracted or something, because you're not able to remember what I'm saying, and the points I'm making... and focussing on the wrong things.

Look at that McCreary hit again. That knocked the poop outta Wayner. Now imagine Ovechkin doing that to him. You tell me if Wayne gets back up.
Even though many of us posted tons of video evidence of him getting hit, you still are being stubborn on this. Lets say for instance that he didnt get hit (which he did), perhaps its a skill that he had at not being able to hit him because of his heads up play and agility on the skates?

We showed you he got hit. He was also very elusive, which is a skill in itself.

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06-19-2017, 10:06 AM
  #684
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Originally Posted by Tweed View Post
Pound per inch, Marner's much bigger than Gretz.
No, he isn't. I don't care what Marner is listed at.

Quote:
The guys that would hit Gretzky today (it only takes ONE)... are much more agile than the pylons of yesteryear. I seriously doubt 99 would be able to avoid a lot of what would be thrown at him today, especially considering today's players are specifically trained to close gaps and ride shadows. It's not like the 80s man... where a players were chasing each other around the ice. That IS the reason we have Dump and Chase. There's no room anymore.
Well that is just like your opinion man.. I think if Gretzky can survive the Potvins, Stevens, Prongers, etc. of the day, he'd probably be ok.

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06-19-2017, 10:06 AM
  #685
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Originally Posted by nbwingsfan View Post
And I'll ask again, how many times have any of these players been absolutely crushed? Why do you think only Wayne will despite being a vastly better player? Despite players from the 80s/90s saying they tried to hot him but couldn't because he was so good at avoiding hits?

Wow, it's almost like skilled smaller players are good at avoiding hits!
You're touching on a question I haven't floated yet, for the sake of keeping things simple. But, there does need to be some clarification to the OPs question.

Do today's players know this 99-guy to be "Wayne 'The Great One' Gretzky", when we drop him into today's game? Or does he get the benefit of relative anonymity and a fresh legacy. It matters, because it determines the size of the bullseye on his back.

I took OP's phrasing to mean Wayne is the Wayne that everybody knows, and with that comes his legacy.

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06-19-2017, 10:08 AM
  #686
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
No, he isn't. I don't care what Marner is listed at.



Well that is just like your opinion man.. I think if Gretzky can survive the Potvins, Stevens, Prongers, etc. of the day, he'd probably be ok.
That's fine. So how many points would Wayne tally in today's game?

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06-19-2017, 10:11 AM
  #687
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Originally Posted by tweed View Post
that's fine. So how many points would wayne tally in today's game?
140-160

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06-19-2017, 10:11 AM
  #688
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Originally Posted by TMLFOREVER View Post
Even though many of us posted tons of video evidence of him getting hit, you still are being stubborn on this. Lets say for instance that he didnt get hit (which he did), perhaps its a skill that he had at not being able to hit him because of his heads up play and agility on the skates?

We showed you he got hit. He was also very elusive, which is a skill in itself.
I don't know if I'd call that a ton of evidence... but I agree and understand that Wayne was dodgy. I'm not disputing that.

But if you think 99 doesn't go off on a stretcher never-to-be-seen-again... after getting Matty-Niskanen'd... that's on you, not me.

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06-19-2017, 10:13 AM
  #689
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
140-160
Okay... now I know how far apart we really are. You think he'd dominate this era, more than he did his own era.

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06-19-2017, 10:15 AM
  #690
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Okay... now I know how far apart we really are. You think he'd dominate this era, more than he did his own era.
That is actually about the same.

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06-19-2017, 10:19 AM
  #691
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
140-160
I agree with this range of numbers.

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06-19-2017, 10:19 AM
  #692
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Originally Posted by Tweed View Post
Goon, tough-guy, dirty rat, plays outside the lines, Hanson-brother... whatever. I wasn't suggesting Clarke was an Enforcer, if that's what you're driving at.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/ar...t-1866747.html

Semenko (and McSorley) and the lack of 99-contact is not just a perception... it's a widely recognized, known, and accepted thing. Even Wayne himself says as much. Or is Wayne just being Wayne by crediting Dave for something he didn't do?

Using your fondness for percentages... please express what % of the contact that Sid endures, Wayne experienced.

I watched Gretzky play 400-500 times live. He got hit a lot. But most were glancing blows at best because of the qualities I mentioned...vision, agility and awareness. Those are qualities that would translate to todays game. In fact, it would be much easier to predict where players would be today because there is far less chaos.

I also saw live virtually every home game both McSorely and Semenko played with the Oilers by the way so I understand their roles. I also know that they were responsible for keeping Gretzky from having to deal with a lot of crap. They weren't the only ones by the way. That Oiler dynasty had one of the toughest teams in the NHL. But even so teams like the Flames were hardly intimidated. If you don't believe me ask anyone who watched the old BOA.

One reason Crosby gets hit much more than Gretzky is that he plays like an absolutely elite grinder. In this respect he has more in common with Lindros than he does with Gretzky, though of course Lindros initiated far more than Crosby. The consequences for Crosby to play that style back then would have been worse. Of course he would have been skilled enough to adapt, but to deny that he would not have taken far more punishment back then playing the same way is to simply show that you are not aware of how the game has evolved.

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06-19-2017, 10:20 AM
  #693
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I agree with this range of numbers.
So do I.

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06-19-2017, 10:21 AM
  #694
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Okay... now I know how far apart we really are. You think he'd dominate this era, more than he did his own era.
How is that more dominant than his own era?

1983-84 Gretzky beat Coffey by 79 points

Which last I checked if Gretzky put up 160 this year he'd beat McDavid by 60

60 < 79 right? So that would be less dominant

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06-19-2017, 10:21 AM
  #695
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
That is actually about the same.
So Sid is on Mario's level, is what you're saying.

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06-19-2017, 10:22 AM
  #696
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So Sid is on Mario's level, is what you're saying.
That's one weird ****ing jump man given that Mario was far closer to Gretzky than Sid would be to BC's range for Gretzky today.

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06-19-2017, 10:24 AM
  #697
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So Sid is on Mario's level, is what you're saying.
Sid isn't even close to Mario.

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06-19-2017, 10:28 AM
  #698
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Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
How is that more dominant than his own era?

1983-84 Gretzky beat Coffey by 79 points

Which last I checked if Gretzky put up 160 this year he'd beat McDavid by 60

60 < 79 right? So that would be less dominant
Outscoring the #2 guy at 1.6x rate in '83 is not the same thing as outscoring the #2 in '17 at 1.6x. A very crude GPG-scaling shows that it's the equivalent of outscoring McD by 2.3x in '83

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06-19-2017, 10:30 AM
  #699
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Outscoring the #2 guy at 1.6x rate in '83 is not the same thing as outscoring the #2 in '17 at 1.6x. A very crude GPG-scaling shows that it's the equivalent of outscoring McD by 2.3x in '83
In what world is 160 points 2.3x 100 points?

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06-19-2017, 10:32 AM
  #700
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Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
That's one weird ****ing jump man given that Mario was far closer to Gretzky than Sid would be to BC's range for Gretzky today.
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Sid isn't even close to Mario.
No obviously we'd agree that Sid is not Mario. I estimated you were talking prime Wayne over sophomore Mario... so '85ish. Which is a fair shift to sophomore McD (today's NHL).

Clearly I was tongue-in-cheek showing you how 160pts for Wayne today... sounds. Sid = Mario, in that math, that's not a weird ****ing jump. That's the math.

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