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Anaheim and Expansion - Why the Ducks are in great shape ‎(pt2)

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Old
06-19-2017, 01:23 PM
  #576
phlocky
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Originally Posted by heusy_79 View Post
A) It would be trading one D, not two. Bieksa would be dealt with in one way or another to free up that other spot if needed. They'd be forcing the Ducks to move Vatanen, who by all accounts would have fetched a solid return.

B) Vegas can either get left with scraps, or they can get paid via young assets in order to take scraps. Since they're a first year expansion team more interested in building a system than screwing teams over, they're better off agreeing to a trade provided the return is undoubtedly more valuable to them than the alternative.

Other folks have tried to make your argument before, I think it's pretty silly to suggest McPhee is going to value spite and scraps over getting pieces that can help him build a farm system from scratch.

A) I never said that they'd "trade" 2 dmen, that they'd LOSE 2 dmen (Bieksa bought out and Cats traded)

B) Vegas is building for the future, not today. They can only build long term success early on with high draft picks in the first 3 years. They can select bottom 6 and bottom pairing dmen at the entry draft, why would they accept prospects and picks that basically are no better than what they are going to be given for free at the ED? That line of logic makes no sense.

Again, go read McPhees comments from the past week and you'll see that HE has many GM's squirming right now and he knows that he is in the driver's seat. He's said that some GM's have come to him and tried to "bully" him (and honestly I think Murray was one of them trying to make it seem like he was in the driver's seat and McPhee should take whatever he offered) but McPhee has gone on record as saying he laughed at said GM's and would do everything he could to screw them over if they didn't meet his demands

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Old
06-19-2017, 01:23 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by heusy_79 View Post
Every reputable insider claimed there was great interest in Vatanen and that he could bring back a good return. By claiming the opposite, you are in effect claiming to know more about the trade market than each of Dreger, McKenzie, LeBrun, Friedman etc. If that's the story you want to run with, run Forest run.
Well if NHL insiders said that, it changes everything. Why didn't you mention that earlier. We could have avoided pages of discussion had we all known this information. Why did you keep it a secret?

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06-19-2017, 01:24 PM
  #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heusy_79 View Post
Every reputable insider claimed there was great interest in Vatanen and that he could bring back a good return. By claiming the opposite, you are in effect claiming to know more about the trade market than each of Dreger, McKenzie, LeBrun, Friedman etc. If that's the story you want to run with, run Forest run.
Weird how all that trade talk about Vatanen didn't carry on right to the deadline to move players. In fact it all seemed to die a couple days before BM said at that select-a-seat event that he didn't expect to lose anything major.

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06-19-2017, 01:25 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Mallard View Post
1. The speculation is we are losing Theodore or something for Vegas to take Kerdiles etc... Therefore, even though Vegas takes Kerdiles (scraps) they still get Theodore who is not scraps and fits with what GMGM is trying to build.

2. How do we lose Vatanen and Manson? Vegas can only take one.
Not going to explain it again, reading comprehension is a tool that evidently escapes many on HF

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06-19-2017, 01:25 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
A) I never said that they'd "trade" 2 dmen, that they'd LOSE 2 dmen (Bieksa bought out and Cats traded)

B) Vegas is building for the future, not today. They can only build long term success early on with high draft picks in the first 3 years. They can select bottom 6 and bottom pairing dmen at the entry draft, why would they accept prospects and picks that basically are no better than what they are going to be given for free at the ED? That line of logic makes no sense.

Again, go read McPhees comments from the past week and you'll see that HE has many GM's squirming right now and he knows that he is in the driver's seat. He's said that some GM's have come to him and tried to "bully" him (and honestly I think Murray was one of them trying to make it seem like he was in the driver's seat and McPhee should take whatever he offered) but McPhee has gone on record as saying he laughed at said GM's and would do everything he could to screw them over if they didn't meet his demands
Vatanen was going to be traded anyway and replaced by Montour.

Losing Bieksa would be addition by subtraction.

Next argument?

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Old
06-19-2017, 01:26 PM
  #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Again, your ENTIRE premise is based upon Bieksa waiving (he should no indication that he would) or buying him out (have fun with that dead cap space for an already cap strapped team) AND (most importantly) the ability to trade Vatanen BEFORE the ED (which your GM tried but was unsuccessful at doing). Yes, there is most likely a deal in place right now to trade Vats but only AFTER the ED.

How hard is it to accept that your GM tried to trade Vats before the ED and he failed and that put him at the mercy of Vegas????
So you want to tell us that BM couldn't even flick Vatanen for like a 3rd pairing dude (so we have someone to expose) and a third (which is still better leftovers than... nothing)?

and you guys call US delusional

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06-19-2017, 01:27 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by ColdSteel2 View Post
Well if NHL insiders said that, it changes everything. Why didn't you mention that earlier. We could have avoided pages of discussion had we all known this information. Why did you keep it a secret?
Ah so even though every single one of the most reputable insiders out there agreed on something, I'm supposed to assume the very opposite is true because some guy on HF said so....gotcha

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06-19-2017, 01:30 PM
  #583
ColdSteel2
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Originally Posted by heusy_79 View Post
Ah so even though every single one of the most reputable insiders out there agreed on something, I'm supposed to assume the very opposite is true because some guy on HF said so....gotcha
Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear. I bet they got this inside info from Murray himself. Sounds like his MO, bully everyone into getting what he wants. What's he gonna do if McPhee demands more than he wants to give up, give him a swirly?

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06-19-2017, 01:31 PM
  #584
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Duck fans don't seem to understand they're not in the drivers seat. Vegas isn't going to do you any favors. They're taking manson or vatanen, or they will make a deal to get even more. Best case is they take manson/vatanen

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Old
06-19-2017, 01:32 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by ColdSteel2 View Post
Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear. I bet they got this inside info from Murray himself. Sounds like his MO, bully everyone into getting what he wants. What's he gonna do if McPhee demands more than he wants to give up, give him a swirly?
Who did he bully before this?

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06-19-2017, 01:34 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Who did he bully before this?
Rakell and Lindholm.

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06-19-2017, 01:36 PM
  #587
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At this point, it really comes down to what Murray defines as "major".

HF may think Theodore is major while Murray does not in relation to the Ducks current D corp and prospects. HF thinks a 1st next year is major while Murray doesn't consider that major in relation to losing Manson + a lower return on a Vatanen trade.

Will be interesting to see what it winds up being.

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Old
06-19-2017, 01:37 PM
  #588
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Rakell and Lindholm.

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06-19-2017, 01:41 PM
  #589
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Not going to explain it again, reading comprehension is a tool that evidently escapes many on HF
Hahaha ...Hi Pot, meet kettle..

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Old
06-19-2017, 01:42 PM
  #590
tomd
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Originally Posted by BigKing View Post
At this point, it really comes down to what Murray defines as "major".

HF may think Theodore is major while Murray does not in relation to the Ducks current D corp and prospects. HF thinks a 1st next year is major while Murray doesn't consider that major in relation to losing Manson + a lower return on a Vatanen trade.

Will be interesting to see what it winds up being.
He actually said "nothing big" and apparently showed no concern about the situation at the STH meeting. "Big" to me would include one of your top 5 prospects or a 1st in a stacked 2018 draft. Those are both things that BM covets. To my knowledge he has not given any update which reflects a change in his thinking.

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06-19-2017, 01:45 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by BigKing View Post
At this point, it really comes down to what Murray defines as "major".

HF may think Theodore is major while Murray does not in relation to the Ducks current D corp and prospects. HF thinks a 1st next year is major while Murray doesn't consider that major in relation to losing Manson + a lower return on a Vatanen trade.

Will be interesting to see what it winds up being.
Fair enough. While i think it's unlikley (unless we include a cap dump) I wouldn't be shocked to see us giving up something HF considers more valuable than him (1st or prospect not named same steel). But people suggesting we could lose a 1st + sam steel or even Manson straight up don't have a clue.

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06-19-2017, 01:48 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by Psychoil View Post
Duck fans don't seem to understand they're not in the drivers seat. Vegas isn't going to do you any favors. They're taking manson or vatanen, or they will make a deal to get even more. Best case is they take manson/vatanen
There might not even be a driver's seat. The course is probably already run. That's what the paid professionals are saying at least. But sure, some blow hard on an internet message board seems much more reputable. I see the logic now.

#logicfail
#kidsusedtobesmarterthanthis

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Old
06-19-2017, 01:49 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by DANTHEMAN1967 View Post
I agree with what you suggest happened but I think there was probably some back and forth on #2 to arrive at a pick/prospect.
If McPhee doesn't get at least one of Theodore, Larsson, 2018 1st or Max Jones and a 2nd then he got hosed.
If the price was 1st/Larsson/Jones/Theodore + 2nd, I believe Murray would have just traded Vatanen and asked Bieksa to waive. I don't think it will be that high. I don't think Vegas will get hosed either, considering the alternative would have been to just select Kerdiles.

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Originally Posted by The Mighty Duck Man View Post
To illustrate how much Murray likes his early picks, he's made 11 picks in the first round in 8 drafts as GM and 17 within the first 45. Im definitely inclined to think he isn't including the first, but on the other hand, I'm not sure trading Theodore to keep a future first is something he'd do either. Hoping it doesn't involve either.
100% agree. I would prefer Theodore to the 1st. However, I don't think Murray sees it that way. I think Theodore being NHL ready and no spot for him makes him a prime trade candidate this offseason.

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Are you really stunned?
You're right, I shouldn't be.

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06-19-2017, 01:49 PM
  #594
BigKing
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
He actually said "nothing big" and apparently showed no concern about the situation at the STH meeting. "Big" to me would include one of your top 5 prospects or a 1st in a stacked 2018 draft. Those are both things that BM covets. To my knowledge he has not given any update which reflects a change in his thinking.
So "big" instead of "major".

Semantics.

Point stands. "Big" in a vacuum or "big" vs. the alternative?

I won't be surprised either way. I'm just glad you didn't take my post as insinuating I was saying Theodore + a 1st is what is going down.

I'm not even going to guess what it is...just excited to watch all the crow eating that will be going on because there are going to be a lot of people on the wrong side regardless of how it shakes out.

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06-19-2017, 01:52 PM
  #595
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Ducks are getting fleeced and it's going to be glorious.

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Old
06-19-2017, 01:55 PM
  #596
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Ducks fans argument revolve around the fact that it would be easy to trade vatenen for decent value before the ed.. which as the 3 trades before hand showed is not the case.. too many moving parts for
Vegas to bite on a deal so early

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06-19-2017, 01:55 PM
  #597
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McPhee and Murray will potentially need each other going forward so it is very unlikely that this is a one-sided deal .
There will not be a clear winner.

Murray will not try and bully or disrespect McPhee by trying to demand that he accept scraps.
McPhee won't demand an exorbitant return to not pick Vatanen/Manson forcing Murray to make moves.
If Murray tried to bully McPhee I have no doubt that McPhee would have said "okay do what you have to do to avoid it, but if you expose either Vatanen or Manson I will take them." He wouldn't want to appear soft and the downside to LV is minimal as they won't be good next year regardless of what they get from Anaheim.

Murray wouldn't do that because he doesn't want to alienate a potential ally/trading partner (Perry's contract in a year as a potential, especially if the cap stagnates).
This combined with the quickness that the deal appears to have been made indicates the return will be good (Theodore, Larsson, 2018 1st, Max Jones + a 2nd) but not incredible (Vatanen or Manson). Otherwise McPhee would have hung up the phone after telling Murray to do better and this would have dragged on longer.

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06-19-2017, 01:55 PM
  #598
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Ducks are getting fleeced and it's going to be glorious.
care to make a prediction - just curious what you think getting fleeced would look like?

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06-19-2017, 01:56 PM
  #599
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Originally Posted by nbducksfan19 View Post
Isn't it funny that it is a large majority of Oil fans coming in here with there wishful (and delusional) fantasies about the ducks getting screwed over in this process...

I guess if you can't beat em...hope the Expansion Draft does.
I am a Leafs fan and have no desire to see the Ducks get screwed. I am mainly arguing certain points.
1.Being that GMBM had leverage over GMGM
2.Being that if they could have waived/bought out K.B they would have.

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06-19-2017, 01:58 PM
  #600
nbducksfan19
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Ducks fans argument revolve around the fact that it would be easy to trade vatenen for decent value before the ed.. which as the 3 trades before hand showed is not the case.. too many moving parts for
Vegas to bite on a deal so early
No, it revolves around the fact that even a trade of poor value is better than nothing....so why not just take what you could have got. Also, combine that with what BM Murray said to season ticket holders and the many reputable insiders who speculated a deal between ANA and Vegas had been agreed to prior to ED...and there you go.

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