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NHL Draft - Prospects Discuss hockey prospects from all over the world and the NHL Draft.

LD Rasmus Dahlin - Frölunda HC, SHL (2018 Draft)

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Old
06-19-2017, 10:36 AM
  #726
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Originally Posted by 93LEAFS View Post
I'd say with 3 of the 4 prospects it proved to be quite true, with Mario, Sid and McDavid. Lindros was only derailed by injuries.

Do you honestly expect Dahlin to win multiple Harts or Lindsey's? If not, in my opinion, he isn't generational. McDavid and Crosby were expected to do that, and have either done it or are expected to.
I think if a dman can walk away with a good number of Norris' that is a better qualifier. They have to win a few cups too. The most elite of elite dmen rarely if ever don't win a cup.

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06-19-2017, 10:39 AM
  #727
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I think if a dman can walk away with a good number of Norris' that is a better qualifier. They have to win a few cups too. The most elite of elite dmen rarely if ever don't win a cup.
I disagree, I don't believe you differentiate by position. You either are or aren't the best player in the league or in the running. I can see the argument for otherwise, but I don't agree with it. There have been defenders who stood far above all of their peers such as Shore and Orr. Norris trophy winner rarely end up in the top 3 of Hart voting, and if you are never viewed as a top 3 player in the league over a given season on a consistent basis, I don't think the player is generational. Generational means you are clearly best player in the league for a sustained period of time. Guys like Ovi and Crosby almost always finish top 3 in Hart voting.

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06-19-2017, 10:47 AM
  #728
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Hype generally follows being generational. Because it tends to be reflective of how the draft goes and the opinions of the industry. I highly doubt in a years time anyone will take Dahlin over McDavid in his draft year, and that is why I wouldn't define him as generational. I hold the same standard to Matthews, Laine, and Eichel.
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Do you really expect Dahlin to win multiple Hart/Lindsay trophies? That was the expectation for McDavid when he was drafted, and looks to be happening. I think to be generational you have to be viewed as the best player in the league for an extended period of time, regardless of position. It's why the only people from the 2000 to 2010 generation with a legitimate argument for that status as a generational player is Crosby and Ovi.
Karlsson is the best player in the league, in my eyes. Had Karlsson had the hype of a defenceman who would go into the league and instantly become a norris contender, boy would all eyes have been on him from game one. Instead he was dismissed as a purely offensive dynamo sacrificing defence with a 4'th forward label etc. He would have earned more than the two Norris wins he currently holds had he had that hype and certainly had Hart consideration. Playing for a contender would also have helped.

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I'm talking about how they were viewed at the time of their draft in the case of Lindros. When talking about how someone was viewed as a prospect, you can't use retrospect. Especially when Lindros's career was derailed by injuries. Bure wasn't generational. The only player who played in the 90's who were was Gretzky and Mario. A case can be made for Jagr or Hasek.
And therein lies the problem. Forsberg certainly SHOULD have had more hype than he had. He is still the U20 record holder for most points scored in the WJC. It's understandable that it's harder for a European prospect to get the hype that a top Canadian prospect would get but that is also why a comparison can not be made. European players normally take time to adjust to NA ice and to a different culture.
Forsbergs and Bures careers were also derailed by injuries. Why you bring up Erik Lindros in this conversation is just confusing. He had hype as the next Gretzky but didn't live up to that hype and there were several players who should have been considered at his level as prospects.

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Crosby has been better pretty much any season he has been healthy. He's been the best player of this generation, and if you were going to ask anyone if they could go back 10 years and take any player to build around, it would be pretty clearly Crosby. Also, Crosby easily would have gone above Ovi in 2004 if he was eligible.
He has not been the clear cut best player this generation judging season by season. He did, however, live up to the hype and to expectations and have plenty of hardware. But your definition was that a generational player should clearly separate themselves from their peers. I don't think Crosby has done that. He has had a very successful career but that career has in part been helped by the hype he had coming out of Canadian jrs.

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06-19-2017, 10:55 AM
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Karlsson is the best player in the league, in my eyes. Had Karlsson had the hype of a defenceman who would go into the league and instantly become a norris contender, boy would all eyes have been on him from game one. Instead he was dismissed as a purely offensive dynamo sacrificing defence with a 4'th forward label etc. He would have earned more than the two Norris wins he currently holds had he had that hype and certainly had Hart consideration. Playing for a contender would also have helped.



And therein lies the problem. Forsberg certainly SHOULD have had more hype than he had. He is still the U20 record holder for most points scored in the WJC. It's understandable that it's harder for a European prospect to get the hype that a top Canadian prospect would get but that is also why a comparison can not be made. European players normally take time to adjust to NA ice and to a different culture.
Forsbergs and Bures careers were also derailed by injuries. Why you bring up Erik Lindros in this conversation is just confusing. He had hype as the next Gretzky but didn't live up to that hype and there were several players who should have been considered at his level as prospects.


He has not been the clear cut best player this generation judging season by season. He did, however, live up to the hype and to expectations and have plenty of hardware. But your definition was that a generational player should clearly separate themselves from their pears. I don't think Crosby has done that. He has had a very successful career but that career has in part been helped by the hype he had coming out of Canadian jrs.
Before Lindros had a significant injury he won a Hart Trophy in his early 20's. You can't apply retrospect to how players were defined. Bure would have had crazy hype, but the iron curtain is a major factor on him and Fedorov. Forsberg was undervalued, but he still went below two other great players (Lindros and Niedermayer). European's weren't overly punished, Sundin went 1oa 2 full years before Forsberg was drafted. Forsbergs world junior record is primarily fuled by event's post-draft. He actually never played in a WJC game prior to being drafted, so again, you are using post-draft events to judge something that should be judged by pre-draft status. Especially when we are talking about guys prior to being drafted. Lindros has 17 points in 7 games in the WJC his 17 year old season, Forsberg wasn't on the Sweden squad. Obviously, players can improve and change things like an undrafted player like MSL. But, everything you are pointing to is post draft, when we are talking entirely of how people were viewed pre-draft. Lindros was on the Canada cup squad and preformed well.

I'd be more inclined to say this generation has had no generational player than extending it to anything past Ovi and Crosby. Karlsson great, but I don't think he's ever been the best player in the league for an extended period of time. It's even questionable if he's been top 3 in the league for an extended period of time.

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06-19-2017, 11:14 AM
  #730
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Before Lindros had a significant injury he won a Hart Trophy in his early 20's. You can't apply retrospect to how players were defined. Bure would have had crazy hype, but the iron curtain is a major factor on him and Fedorov. Forsberg was undervalued, but he still went below two other great players (Lindros and Niedermayer). European's weren't overly punished, Sundin went 1oa 2 full years before Forsberg was drafted. Forsbergs world junior record is primarily fuled by event's post-draft. He actually never played in a WJC game prior to being drafted, so again, you are using post-draft events to judge something that should be judged by pre-draft status. Especially when we are talking about guys prior to being drafted. Lindros has 17 points in 7 games in the WJC his 17 year old season, Forsberg wasn't on the Sweden squad. Obviously, players can improve and change things like an undrafted player like MSL. But, everything you are pointing to is post draft, when we are talking entirely of how people were viewed pre-draft. Lindros was on the Canada cup squad and preformed well.

I'd be more inclined to say this generation has had no generational player than extending it to anything past Ovi and Crosby. Karlsson great, but I don't think he's ever been the best player in the league for an extended period of time. It's even questionable if he's been top 3 in the league for an extended period of time.
If we agree that there has been no generational player this generation, I'm fine with that. And I'm also fine with your definition of a generational talent if that is that they matured early and that their career trajectory was clear from a very early age and that they lived up to expectations from their very first season in the NHL. A generational player, however.. I don't think hype should play any part in whether they are generational or not.

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06-19-2017, 11:26 AM
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If we agree that there has been no generational player this generation, I'm fine with that. And I'm also fine with your definition of a generational talent if that is that they matured early and that their career trajectory was clear from a very early age and that they lived up to expectations from their very first season in the NHL. A generational player, however.. I don't think hype should play any part in whether they are generational or not.
To be clear, I don't think Lindros was a generational player. The only players I think are clearly generational are Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux. Then we get into a grey area with Mikita, Clarke, Richard, Beliveau, Esposito, Harvey, Bourque, Lidstrom, Hasek, Jagr and a few others. Not all generational prospects become generational players.

When it comes to generational prospects, I'm talking entirely pre-draft. Yes, that is obviously hype, but a lot of hype is reflective of scout-think at the time. Dahlin is the most hyped defensive prospect in awhile. It's on par with Doughty, Hedman, and Bouwmeester (who was probably the most hyped). It may exceed it with another strong season. It will be very interesting to follow his development next year, as he looks to be the most hyped young Swede in my lifetime. I'm too young to remember the Swedish Mario hype around Sundin.

Dahlin's puck control and awareness is truly a unique combo when added to his size. I hope he doesn't suffer the declined draft stock we have seen with recent defenders (Larsson, Jones, Bouwmeester etc), who entered their draft year as serious #1 contenders. I doubt we see a collapse like we have with a few others such as Kylington and Liljegren he seems significantly ahead of all the other guys except maybe Chychrun, who was highly hyped but not as much as Dahlin.

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06-19-2017, 11:32 AM
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To be clear, I don't think Lindros was a generational player. The only players I think are clearly generational are Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux. Then we get into a grey area with Mikita, Clarke, Richard, Beliveau, Esposito, Harvey, Bourque, Lidstrom, Hasek, Jagr and a few others. Not all generational prospects become generational players.

When it comes to generational prospects, I'm talking entirely pre-draft. Yes, that is obviously hype, but a lot of hype is reflective of scout-think at the time. Dahlin is the most hyped defensive prospect in awhile. It's on par with Doughty, Hedman, and Bouwmeester (who was probably the most hyped). It may exceed it with another strong season. It will be very interesting to follow his development next year, as he looks to be the most hyped young Swede in my lifetime. I'm too young to remember the Swedish Mario hype around Sundin.

Dahlin's puck control and awareness is truly a unique combo when added to his size. I hope he doesn't suffer the declined draft stock we have seen with recent defenders (Larsson, Jones, Bouwmeester etc), who entered their draft year as serious #1 contenders. I doubt we see a collapse like we have with a few others such as Kylington and Liljegren he seems significantly ahead of all the other guys except maybe Chychrun, who was highly hyped but not as much as Dahlin.
Lindros was 100% a generational player IMO.

He's also one of the most unique players in NHL history and that's what makes him a generational talent to me. Never seen anything like Lindros before or after.

Everything before his draft suggests that he was as well IMO.

He also had a 1.3+ points per game average with the Flyers in his time there. It's just the concussions caught up to the guy.

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06-19-2017, 01:07 PM
  #733
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I disagree, I don't believe you differentiate by position. You either are or aren't the best player in the league or in the running. I can see the argument for otherwise, but I don't agree with it. There have been defenders who stood far above all of their peers such as Shore and Orr. Norris trophy winner rarely end up in the top 3 of Hart voting, and if you are never viewed as a top 3 player in the league over a given season on a consistent basis, I don't think the player is generational. Generational means you are clearly best player in the league for a sustained period of time. Guys like Ovi and Crosby almost always finish top 3 in Hart voting.
The only way you finish in top for a dmen is if you have Orr like seasons. So essentially the only way to be generational as a dman is to play entirely offensively.

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06-19-2017, 01:19 PM
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The only way you finish in top for a dmen is if you have Orr like seasons. So essentially the only way to be generational as a dman is to play entirely offensively.
Pronger won. You don't need quite Orr like seasons. Bourque had two runner-ups and 5 top 5 finishes. So, you don't need to be purely offensive. Maybe it was only Orr who was clearly the best player in the league while being a defender which is why he won for a sustained period.

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06-19-2017, 01:23 PM
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Pronger won. You don't need quite Orr like seasons. Bourque had two runner-ups. So, you don't need to be purely offensive.
It's just not likely you win consquetively without Orr like seasons. Especially because there will likely be a high end center in the game putting up more points.

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06-19-2017, 01:28 PM
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It's just not likely you win consquetively without Orr like seasons. Especially because there will likely be a high end center in the game putting up more points.
Yes, I agree with that. But, I'd say generally the center is the better player. Bourque didn't win because of Gretzky and Mario. Lidstrom didn't win partially due to Sid and Ovi and Potvin/Robinson didn't win due to Lafleur and Clarke. So, its rare for the defender to be the best player of his generation, or even be top 2.

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06-19-2017, 03:35 PM
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Yes, I agree with that. But, I'd say generally the center is the better player. Bourque didn't win because of Gretzky and Mario. Lidstrom didn't win partially due to Sid and Ovi and Potvin/Robinson didn't win due to Lafleur and Clarke. So, its rare for the defender to be the best player of his generation, or even be top 2.
Which is why I differentiate between the two. They both have completely different jobs. Lidstrom was for portions of time the best player in the game. He didn't make mistakes. But his job wasn't to score 100+ points like it was for Sid or Ovi. His job was to be a rock and he was. He was about as perfect a defencemen as you could ever find.

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06-19-2017, 05:45 PM
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Which is why I differentiate between the two. They both have completely different jobs. Lidstrom was for portions of time the best player in the game. He didn't make mistakes. But his job wasn't to score 100+ points like it was for Sid or Ovi. His job was to be a rock and he was. He was about as perfect a defencemen as you could ever find.
True, just agree to disagree on this one. I think it's the player you take over all others for a certain period of time, generally in a 10-year frame who clearly dominates. Not which player at which position you take.

In general, forwards drive possession and scoring more than any other position, particularly centers, so defenders are naturally at a disadvantage when talking about the most impactful player in the league. But, I don't think there is a need for positional separation. Generational to me, is simply if you could take any player over a 10 year span to build a team around, who do you take. There can be somewhat overlapping players (Gretzky/Lemieux), but generally, it is pretty clear cut.

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06-19-2017, 06:07 PM
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It would be neat if this thread could be about Dahlin rather than things that aren't Dahlin.

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06-19-2017, 07:04 PM
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It would be neat if this thread could be about Dahlin rather than things that aren't Dahlin.
Welcome to the off season.

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06-19-2017, 08:03 PM
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I disagree, I don't believe you differentiate by position. You either are or aren't the best player in the league or in the running. I can see the argument for otherwise, but I don't agree with it. There have been defenders who stood far above all of their peers such as Shore and Orr. Norris trophy winner rarely end up in the top 3 of Hart voting, and if you are never viewed as a top 3 player in the league over a given season on a consistent basis, I don't think the player is generational. Generational means you are clearly best player in the league for a sustained period of time. Guys like Ovi and Crosby almost always finish top 3 in Hart voting.
The best player of the last 20 years is Lidstrom, and how many awards outside of Norris trophies did he win?

Defensemen are judged differently, and always will.

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06-19-2017, 08:45 PM
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The best player of the last 20 years is Lidstrom, and how many awards outside of Norris trophies did he win?

Defensemen are judged differently, and always will.
Greatest, maybe, due to longevity and sustained performance. I don't think most would take peak Lidstrom over peak Hasek, Jagr or Crosby, who all had their peak in those 20 years.

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06-19-2017, 08:46 PM
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The best player of the last 20 years is Lidstrom, and how many awards outside of Norris trophies did he win?

Defensemen are judged differently, and always will.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lidstni01.html

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06-19-2017, 09:19 PM
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Greatest, maybe, due to longevity and sustained performance. I don't think most would take peak Lidstrom over peak Hasek, Jagr or Crosby, who all had their peak in those 20 years.
That should definitely put him in the conversation for generational IMO. I may not take him over a few other players peaks but when you factor in career he stands at the tippity top for dmen.

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06-19-2017, 09:24 PM
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That should definitely put him in the conversation for generational IMO. I may not take him over a few other players peaks but when you factor in career he stands at the tippity top for dmen.
Conversation yes, and I can see why people would label him as such. But, I personally don't agree with that view of generational. As stated, the clear cuts are Gretzky, Howe, Orr and Lemieux. Past that, it gets debatable. I personally think you need multiple seasons where either your peers or the press thought you were the best player in the league. Lidstrom never even got a Hart nominee.

But, this is getting way past Dahlin. I think he's a great prospect and could be the top defender in the league. But, I doubt he becomes more valued than McDavid. Either at his draft date or during their career barring significant injuries.

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06-20-2017, 01:28 AM
  #746
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By the logic of some of you, Lemieux wouldn't be considered generational because Gretzky was in the league lol.
McDavid can be generational, and so can Dahlin....and likely will be.

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06-20-2017, 03:10 AM
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True, just agree to disagree on this one. I think it's the player you take over all others for a certain period of time, generally in a 10-year frame who clearly dominates. Not which player at which position you take.

In general, forwards drive possession and scoring more than any other position, particularly centers, so defenders are naturally at a disadvantage when talking about the most impactful player in the league. But, I don't think there is a need for positional separation. Generational to me, is simply if you could take any player over a 10 year span to build a team around, who do you take. There can be somewhat overlapping players (Gretzky/Lemieux), but generally, it is pretty clear cut.
Erik Karlsson drives possession and scoring. He sets the pace and all plays go through him. He dominates his peers and plays half a game night in and night out. How he is not regarded as the best player in the league is hardly the fault of his.

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06-20-2017, 03:54 AM
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Some of you are really taking this a bit too far. I am really high on Dahlin as well, living in his hometown I have heard about him for a couple of years. But he really hasn't proved anything yet, even for his age. Hoping he will be the next coming of Lidström or Karlsson, but trying to be a bit restrictive about predicting his future. Next season will give us more of a hint on how he is progressing.

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Yesterday, 01:06 PM
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What Could Make Rasmus Dahlin Fall?

Obviously this was not going anywhere. Thought I'd get some meaningful insight, guess not.

**mods if there is any way to delete this thread feel free to.


Last edited by SCampo98: Yesterday at 01:17 PM. Reason: typo
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Yesterday, 01:14 PM
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I always wonder why this happens. It happened with Fowler, Kylington, Chychrun, and now Liljegren

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