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Detroit Red Wings #2 Prospect Summer 17/18 Run Off

View Poll Results: Who do you like more as a Prospect
Filip Hronek 51 60.71%
Michael Rasmussen 33 39.29%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-12-2017, 07:49 PM
  #26
BinCookin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
I really like Hronek as a prospect.. but no way he is deserving of twice the amount of votes as Rasmussen here.
Not everyone votes purely on order based on "highest ceiling"

I mean according to draft position Rasmussen should be better by a good margin than Larkin/Mantha/Svechnikov.

Debatably given strength of drafts could be diff.

I however (and probably a few others), also vote based on prospect readyness. Not as in "hey he is closer to the nhl, so i vote for him" but more of a "he was drafted decently high, and he has 1 or 2 solid seasons under him, making him a stronger and stronger player, and thus most likely will Actually make an NHL team one day. And I do not think that is ever a gaurantee with any pick, no matter their draft position.


But yes you are right, he "should" have the highest ceiling of all based on his 18yr old year... I just put a lot more weight into an AHL year of success than CHL/WHL/QMJHL year.

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07-12-2017, 07:53 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Then this will probably blow your mind.

In round 1 Rasmussen had 23 votes while Hronek had 5.


There has been a lot of negative campaigning, enough to the degree I have pretty much thrown up my hands and I am not all that interested in arguing why I think he is the #1 prospect in our system anymore.

I want all of these guys to do well and really I see us as having a big 4 in terms of prospects and Bert as a very advanced #5 in the rankings that I like a lot as a player. It is what it is for me. I had Hronek at #2 on my list he just was behind Rasmussen for me.

If Rasmussen has a dominate +1 season because of his obvious natural gifts he can completely rewrite the order next year. I have a feeling he will and the doubters he does have are going to be pretty quiet even by the time the mid-season polls happen around here.
I don't see what's weird about that considering Svechnikov had 99

considering the recent 9th overall guy lost by that much to begin with it's not exactly surprising that there's a lot of people that also prefer the next guy on the list over him

i'd have a tough time voting for Rasmussen higher than like 5th myself,I just can't see him as being anything more than a 3rd line power play specialist in the NHL

and a dominant +1 season down in juniors is unlikely to change my mind on that if he doesn't also make dramatic changes to the kind of player he is in general

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07-12-2017, 07:57 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Not everyone votes purely on order based on "highest ceiling"

I mean according to draft position Rasmussen should be better by a good margin than Larkin/Mantha/Svechnikov.

Debatably given strength of drafts could be diff.

I however (and probably a few others), also vote based on prospect readyness. Not as in "hey he is closer to the nhl, so i vote for him" but more of a "he was drafted decently high, and he has 1 or 2 solid seasons under him, making him a stronger and stronger player, and thus most likely will Actually make an NHL team one day. And I do not think that is ever a gaurantee with any pick, no matter their draft position.


But yes you are right, he "should" have the highest ceiling of all based on his 18yr old year... I just put a lot more weight into an AHL year of success than CHL/WHL/QMJHL year.
I guess I'd like to maybe hear a little more on why you think Hronek is so much more pro ready?

He needs a lot of work on his defensive game and he needs to get quite a bit stronger as well.

I mean he was a healthy scratch during GR's playoff run. If you were going on mostly pro readiness it would seem Bertuzzi is the easy pick here.

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07-12-2017, 08:12 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekial View Post
IMO 53-53 tie kinda negates your "it isn't close" opinion.
I like said.

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07-12-2017, 08:59 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
i voted Hronek both times. but ill imagine there are many voters that could be swayed.

I being not a huge prospect fan, like to hear from the more hardcore fans about these guys in this thread.
consider me a convinceable voter, so when you vote, post a comment to make your case, and you may win my vote too ;P

I also always favor the more NHL ready prospect in a close vote.

I would like to hear more about Hronek by anyone in the know, while we wait for the next poll.
I don't have to talk him up, chelios and blashill do it for me :p
I've backed off bashing Rasmussen. There's other people that have watched him more than I have on here and they speak highly of him.
But the one guy that I have actually watched a lot is Hronek. So I'm very high on him. I think his best asset is getting pucks through to the net. He gets tons of assists by deflection goals. I think he can be our rafalski. He was way more impressive than Middleton and nemo. (Defensive defenseman I know, but they are popular). His skating is good. Vision and passing very good. He also holds his own in his own zone. He is very skinny and 6'0 which is literally the only knock that I can come up with. He said personally he will work on getting bigger, stronger and faster, to play in the AHL. I think he can be a number 2 for us. Next season draft our number 1 hopefully. Then with Jensen, xo, Kotkansalo, lindstrom, vili. We aren't looking too bad back there. But yeah finding that number 1 is damn near impossible

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Old
07-12-2017, 09:22 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
I guess I'd like to maybe hear a little more on why you think Hronek is so much more pro ready?

He needs a lot of work on his defensive game and he needs to get quite a bit stronger as well.

I mean he was a healthy scratch during GR's playoff run. If you were going on mostly pro readiness it would seem Bertuzzi is the easy pick here.
As i said, i use other's comments, maybe a few videos, and a few stats or reports checks. Overall I am an ill informed voter on this, but i do enjoy trying:

I liked the videos i watched of cholowski last year, but have not rechecked them.

I imagine if Hronek has jumped him that he has looked good, at least in 1 year so far.

(anyway i let this board convince me of who they like best)(Im an avid stat watcher, which usually isnt very useful with prospects)

I know i said Pro ready, but obviously that is about half vs theoretical talent level. I see Bertuzzi so far as a barely capable NHLer. Hope to be proven wrong.

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07-13-2017, 11:40 AM
  #32
Ezekial
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Originally Posted by Vatican Roulette View Post
I like said.
I stand by it, it must be pretty close if it took people changing their vote to get this outcome.
Besides it was like 10 to 10 when I posted that, I thought others would have more conviction.
I don't think anyone is wrong by choosing Hronek, I think France and bin both had good points on the first page.

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07-13-2017, 11:45 AM
  #33
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Looks like the negative commentary on Rasmussen has really lopsided this runoff poll.

I'm not sure how I'll vote on three yet. I don't think Rasmussen is the clear cut choice, but I might pick him for there.

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07-13-2017, 11:58 AM
  #34
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Yeah I guess everyone is reading what we say about Ras and changing their votes...which I'm not sure if I completely agree with even if I think Ras is our 4th or 5th best prospect and not 2nd like these polls almost placed him. I assume a lot of people liked him just due to being our most recent 9OA and then changed their minds when they saw what we're saying. Still if you think he will be a top 6 C then you should probably vote Ras. I just don't see that ceiling.

Despite seeing some of the IQ and passing that his supporters claim gives him a good ceiling, I just don't expect him to be better than a 3C+PP. I think he does have the potential to improve his vision and passing game and play a much more well rounded game. If he does that and continues to excel at picking up goals from in tight that's awesome. What I'm looking for next season is he puts up twice as many ES points and a lot more 1st assists...then I'll reconsider my projection of him and give him credit as a potential top 6 guy.

Until then I think all of Hronek, Cholo and Saarijarvi project to be second line defenseman which to me is just more valuable than a 3C. So that's who I'm voting for in this poll. Here's my top 5 with my guess for where they turn out: 1. Svech:1/2W 2.Hronek: 2/3D 3.Cholo:3/4D 4.Vili:3/4D 5.Ras: 3/4C


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Old
07-13-2017, 12:10 PM
  #35
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Then this post was wasted at the end of the last thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by originalsixwingfan View Post
I find that it more conducive to my sanity to be primarily a reader than a contributor, but I agree completely with that post and want to add some comments about Rasmussen just to contribute to a balance of opinion and also make a couple of factual points about his season that have been largely overlooked in the discussion. Apologies in advance for probably going too long to keep anyone's attention.

I consider Rasmussen the best prospect in the system. He’s simply a sound fundamental player in every respect with better skills, both skating and with the puck, and better on-ice awareness and hockey intelligence, than a number of posters have stated. As his coach said, he’s an evolving player, a bit of a chameleon in that he can do anything you want him to do. That might be an accurate description of both his strengths and weaknesses, because while it’s nice to be able to do anything, it’s not a good thing to be 6-feet-6 of invisibility. I think to a lot of fans the Wings right now are boring and consider Rasmussen the epitomy of a boring prospect. There is very little flash to his game. He is not an explosive skater nor does he stickhandle (or even seemingly try to stickhandle) through 2-3 guys or deke a goaltender out of his jock.

What critics are doing though IMO is conflating flash to upside. There are plenty of flashy players who are third-liners (if they even survive in the league) because they are unaware of what’s going on around them when they have the puck, or relatively clueless without it. There are also plenty of top six forwards in the NHL who essentially just execute the right play without a lot of flash, with most of their elite qualities based on strength on the puck and how difficult they are to handle in one-on-one battles. Invariably their hockey IQ and work rate are at a very high level.

Breaking down his skills, start with Rasmussen being a better skater than most seem to acknowledge. I've seen no mention of the fact that at the CHL Top Prospects Game he tested third overall among 24 forwards in on-ice skating tests, a series of 10 drills with and without the puck. The top two forwards were Formenton and Hischier, the tests validating what most observers recognize as two elite skaters. Rasmussen was in the top three of only one individual drill, but his combined score was better than the likes of notable fast and/or agile skaters like Tippett, Yamamoto, Thomas, Entwhistle, Morand, etc.

Rasmussen does not hold onto the puck except when he is in puck-protection mode along the boards and around the net, which he is very good at. Otherwise he gets the puck and advances it with simple, easy plays. This is considered a good thing in Canadian junior hockey and it’s not much different in the NHL. He does get a few greasy goals, but a lot of his so-called garbage goals are the result of having very good hands. He can find and control the puck in traffic and finish. He has great hand-eye coordination and gets deflection goals with his stick instead of his ass. He has an accurate wrist shot and can pick a corner from inside 20 feet.

Many posters are critical or at least dubious about his passing ability but that is not the opinion of many internet scouting services. Steve Kournianos’ positive comments about Rasmussen’s playmaking skills at the Hlinka Tournament are echoed elsewhere. “Underrated vision and playmaking ability” (Future Considerations); “good playmaking vision” (Dobber Prospects); “effective vision and passing skills” (Draftsite); “His vision is very good, as is his ability to pass the puck through tight spaces … when scoring chances present themselves he can take advantage with a good pass” (Last Word on Sports); “Has good passing skills. Uses his good vision and passing skills to distribute the puck effectively” (Hockey Prospectus); “Excellent playmaking ability recognizing opportunity and setting up in the offensive zone” (NHL Central Scouting). Redline Report was a modest critic and undoubtedly there were others but to a large extent the criticism was based on statistical breakdown rather than scouting impressions of his play.

The ES point production is being turned from a curious anomaly in an injury-shortened season into a so-called “advanced stats” red flag. He had almost identical ES point production to Getzlaf in his WHL Draft year (24 ES points in 49 games before the injury vs. Getzlaf’s 35 ES points in 70 games). Getzlaf was a much worse skater at the same age and didn’t become an elite set-up man until he started playing with an elite finisher and higher quality teammates overall. People have overlooked that Rasmussen did not play a full year. In the last 12 games prior to the wrist injury, he scored 16 points including eight at even strength, so perhaps the statistical imbalance was already working itself out. If he had played the last two months of the WHL season at that pace we might be wondering if he was a goal-centric centre prospect more similar to Jeff Carter than guys like Jake Virtanen or Lawson Crouse (who are poor comparables). He’s not the skater Carter was in Junior, but he’s a lot closer to Carter’s skating level and skill-set than some posters want to believe.

In his limited playing time with top age-group peers Rasmussen has played very well. Kournianos ranked him as Canada’s best player at the Hlinka Tournament, in which he was second on the team in scoring with a goal and three assists. He played center and was trusted with most defensive zone faceoffs. Kournianos noted that Rasmussen liked to crash the net but also that he made a lot of subtle plays to set up teammates’ scoring chances. Subtle is a good description of Rasmussen’s stick work. The puck is soft on his stick, he has his head up and he makes quick, effective plays to advance possession or ice position. If your linemates can’t finish, you aren’t going to get a lot of ES assists. Rasmussen also had a good performance playing left wing with Cody Glass and Kole Lind at the Top Prospects Game. His hands and awareness were shown off a number of times, most notably on the goal he scored and on a play where he chased down and stripped the puck from a defenseman, button-hooked in the offensive zone and found the trailer to create a great scoring chance. At the U17 Tournament he was fourth on his team in scoring.

Rasmussen is probably going to stick at center. He’s been tasked with a lot of defensive zone faceoffs at all levels and gets credit for his defensive awareness and how well he uses his stick. As noted by another poster, he is going to have to work on driving the middle of the ice to both take advantage of his size and create space for wingers. He’s willing to use his size but being a bit nastier would help. Physicality is another area where he is capable and pretty effective, but doesn’t dominate. He’s nowhere close to the way Getzlaf for example bullied opponents at the same age. There are scouting reports that indicated Rasmussen went through stretches where he was not particularly noticeable and a guy with his size should at least be making a physical impact if he’s not scoring. That’s the negative side of him being a bit of a chameleon at this stage of his development.

There’s no doubt in my mind that Rasmussen has the upside of a top six or even top line center. Whether you think he can reach it is another matter. Part of the argument is whether you can be a top six center by being better than average at just about everything, but not necessarily elite in any measurable skill. I think it’s pretty obvious that he has the potential to become a very good possession player simply because of his length, soft hands, skating ability and awareness of teammates, and being a good shooter/finisher. Those are traits he has already demonstrated in the CHL and in best-of-age events.

I don’t think the Wings picked him mostly because of his size or “intangibles”. I think they picked him because they think he will be a better NHL player than everyone who was available in a generally weak draft. He might never rack up 40 assists, but if your flashy 40-assist man can’t play in his own zone or handle the physicality of the NHL, then he’s probably not going to be as good an NHL player as a guy who goes 30-30-60 and can play in all situations and both ends of the ice. The Wings should not be picking players in the first round solely because of how their specific skills might mesh with future teammates. You pick who you think will be the best player and sort out the combinations years later.
A lot of people posting negatively are basing it off of not watching him play.

I wrote Ras off early as a prospect I didn't like so I didn't watch much of him leading up to the draft, now that I've researched him more, I'm almost content with the pick now (still a little disappointed though)

I mean ****, I'm on quote on HFB saying I'd take Robert Thomas over Rasmussen 100 times out of 100...


Final Edit: Ras picking up steam now, closing the gap!!!


Last edited by Ezekial: 07-13-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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Old
07-13-2017, 12:31 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekial View Post
Then this post was wasted at the end of the last thread


A lot of people posting negatively are basing it off of not watching him play.

I wrote Ras off early as a prospect I didn't like so I didn't watch much of him leading up to the draft, now that I've researched him more, I'm almost content with the pick now (still a little disappointed though)

I mean ****, I'm on quote on HFB saying I'd take Robert Thomas over Rasmussen 100 times out of 100...


Final Edit: Ras picking up steam now, closing the gap!!!
Man, I've watched the guy play and if he was either a good passer or possession player, his stats would reflect it. The video would reflect that. Watching him, he looks like a clumsier version of Holmstrom.

Read this scout's take on this guy:

https://www.wingingitinmotown.com/20...hael-rasmussen

Quote:
My take here: Rasmussen is getting a lot of flak for his 5v5 production, which is a legitimate concern. According to CanucksArmy.com, he had 15 goals on the power-play in the 2016-2017 season. If you watch a lot of his highlights, most of his power-play goals come from the mouth of the net -- something that may not translate as well to the NHL. Important to remember that at 6-foot-6, 221 lbs, he easily dominates in the WHL due to being so physically developed. Not a bad thing by any means, but the question remains, will it translate at the next level?
Quote:
With Vilardi on the board, they passed the player the higher ceiling and went with a player who has a higher floor. It's no secret some teams still emphasize size down the middle, and while important, top tier skill and vision is also needed to excel in a top 6 NHL roll. For me, Rasmussen isn't devoid of talent but he also is a player who I question in regards to his skill level and hockey sense. To be that coveted top 6 guys, I didn't see enough to check off all the boxes which are generally givens in elite prospects. Rasmussen is an NHL player, but watching a polarizing player like him this year has me more convinced that he has an upside more fit for a 3rd line than your driving force at even strength.
Quote:
At the end of the day, I think the Red Wings reached a bit on him when other more mentally elite players were on the board. Time will be the key.
This isn't a unique opinion, and there's a reason he had the most red flags of the top 15 guys. That's where the Virtanen and Crouse comparisons come from. Big guys who are taken for their size and not for their skill. When it's not clear whether or not Rasmussen will be a better NHLer than Riley Sheahan, that's an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HisNoodliness View Post
Until then I think all of Hronek, Cholo and Saarijarvi project to be second line defenseman which to me is just more valuable than a 3C. So that's who I'm voting for in this poll. Here's my top 5 with my guess for where they turn out: 1. Svech:1/2W 2.Hronek: 2/3D 3.Cholo:3/4D 4.Vili:3/4D 5.Ras: 3/4C
That's where my conflict comes from as well. We have several guys who project nicely as middle pairing defensemen which is definitely preferred over a middle 6 player. And when comparing him to Bertuzzi; Bertuzzi looks like a difference making type of third line wing, like Dan Cleary circa 2008, I don't know how that compares with Rasmussen, but it gives me reason for pause. Like what is better, a difference making third line wing who can play second line wing in a pinch, or a 3C who produces a lot on the PP and is very large? I don't know.


Do teams need guys like Rasmussen? Perhaps. Is this the type of guy you take at 9, even in a weak draft? No. Is his being the 9th overall player make him a top 3 prospect in the organization? Unfortunately, probably not.


Last edited by Cyborg Yzerberg: 07-13-2017 at 12:40 PM.
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Old
07-13-2017, 12:54 PM
  #37
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Thanks Ezekial for re-posting my excessive comments from the other thread. Obviously I voted Rasmussen here but I like Hronek a tremendous amount too. Can't fault anyone for liking him more. His aggressiveness with and without the puck is a great asset to add to a very good offensive skill-set. I like that he rubs opponents the wrong way, there's a bit of Subban in both his skill-set and attitude. Like PK he is also going to make over-commit mistakes defensively so we'll see how he adapts to the AHL next season. Overall I think the Wings' top six prospect pool (Rasmussen, Hronek, Svechnikov, Cholowski, Saarijarvi, Bertuzzi, in my ranking) is actually pretty good, with all of them having the ability to either win one-on-one battles or beat people with their speed/agility.

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