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RFA Negotiations: Tatar & AA

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Old
07-16-2017, 07:22 AM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
I would disagree. More picks is an important step in rebuilding. Not sure the '17 draft was the one to aggressively trade up in, but that's certainly something Holland should consider going forward. We're starting to stock up on talent in our system, another draft or two and we could start reaching a point where we actually are loaded with depth players. Right now I don't think we are, at all. The picks and prospects we have right now, we need them.
Having tons of depth players is better than having no depth players...in the sense that you have additional assets to leverage. But if all you ever do is collect depth players, and you don't also draft core players, and/or trade assets for core players, and/or sign core players via free agency...

You have a giant pile of depth players that will never do you any good, because depth is the bun, not the burger. All the depth in the world, without a core as a foundation, keeps you as an early playoff exit.

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07-17-2017, 12:00 AM
  #327
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I think Anthanasiou signs before Tatar. Like 2 years, for 4 million total.
I doubt that. Tatar's arbitration date is in a couple days. Holland has the time to wait out AA longer than that, and likely will to try to pressure AA into a contract more to Holland's liking.

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Old
07-17-2017, 02:00 AM
  #328
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Argue it after dropping nine figures on a team and I'd believe you.

They're a business. They're going to run like a business... and that includes straight up lying to your face if they think that'd help their cause. Seriously, come on. Every commercial out there is pretty much either wildly exaggerating or flat out lying to you... and the nonsense a front office spins is not in any way different.

The stuff Holland publically serves up is an Axe body spray commercial. (Do those even still exist?) Here, let me spritz my team with this magic musk and watch Stanley Cups rocket across the room to adhere magnetically to my be-musked frame.

If people allow themselves to get distracted by the nonsense any front office of any pro sports team spins... just, don't do that.
This is a little jaded. I'm not naive enough to place my love/trust into the product of an economic system like global capitalism which facilitates the elite 1% of the world's population to own 50% of the world's wealth, but we're talking about a hockey team here.

Interesting almost this exact topic was brought up on the main boards: Are there NHL owners, for whom teams aren't a business?

There were a few responses brought forth in general agreement:

Owners are usually billionaires ($1,000,000,000) and a sports team is a form of pleasure, not profit. In 2016 9 NHL clubs made less than 7 mil in profit, 8 recorded a negative balance; hockey is not the most superb investment if your care is return. It's more of a status symbol than anything. Pegula was mentioned as a very dedicated owner and there are quotes from multiple other owners stating they make their money elsewhere. Hockey is a passion and a way to give back to the city. Several of these guys say they just want to win a cup and I believe them.

This quote was from Illich in 1982 (thanks to the AMA on Reddit):

"I can't believe the team owners in town," he said at the time. "I'd spend every penny I have to be the best. That's what sports are all about. That's what a team owner should be all about. It's a matter of pride -- if you don't have it or aren't willing, then stay the hell out and let somebody else do it."

This gets me pumped! Really I have more respect for Big I remembering his devotion to the Wings. His involvement wasn't simply for money, the guy loved his sports and obviously liked the challenge of constructing winning teams. He was damn good at it. I doubt it's a coincidence that as his health declined the last years so probably did his attention to the Wings and their casual demise.

The point of my reply related to the original statement: money isn't a prime factor limiting the Wings from doing whatever necessary to be the best once again. Do we realize how minuscule profiting 7 million vs. 3 is to a multi-billionaire? It's like one of us donating 100 bucks a year to charity or blowing it gambling- nothing. What's really amiss in Detroit is the lack of vision. Holland's had nothing but fortune fall in his lap but facing adversity he's frozen in fear. As jkuts said the Wings didn't have the stones to go all in contending and don't for an honest rebuild now. IMO the team feels bankrupt of creativity and direction and I don't know how you get that back.

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07-17-2017, 09:18 AM
  #329
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. IMO the team feels bankrupt of creativity and direction and I don't know how you get that back.
By firing the old GM and co. and hiring new blood.

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07-17-2017, 10:03 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Everytime you make this point someone is going to bring up taxes. It's like having an H&R Block ad on repeat.

Of course this ignores teams like Dallas, Carolina, and the other Florida team that enjoy similar benefits, but somehow aren't the ire of every Toronto fan who wants to shoehorn in their libertarian tax rant into a hockey discussion.
I see 3 likely explanations.

1. Yzerman is the smoothest sweettalker in the universe.
2. Yzerman is just a supremely competent GM who created a team that the existing players see as a contender and are willing to take discounts for.
3. Taxes.

It could of course be a combination.

I think the interesting part is that there's a number of people who use taxes when it suits them but disregard them at other times. Like the people who are trying to defend Holland's stance on Tatar and pointing to the TJ/Palat contracts. Taxes don't matter there apparently. But when Yzerman repeatedly gets those key players to take discounts while Holland cannot, it's just taxes, not his competency or ability.

Interesting.

As for the Wings and Holland running the team like a business...

The people on that side will have to choose between their two contradictory arguments. Either Holland is building a winner or he's just claiming to say he is while his actual goal is to squeeze as much money out of the team. You can't simultaneously defend his moves over the past 5 years as being good for the team's contendership and say his only responsibility is to make money off the team so we should stop expecting a contender.

Pick one.

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Old
07-17-2017, 10:20 AM
  #331
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It could of course be a combination.
It's a great franchise in a sunny climate. It's not a hard sell these days. Total tax dollars I think is pretty minimal. The Rangers are still a destination team and will continue to be for free agents. Toronto will always find a way to spend to their cap. And so on. The tax argument only holds up if you ignore years and years of top free agents choosing big market teams with high taxes. The poor New England Patriots can't get any good players to go there.

Tampa made a strong team and people want to stay. Shocking. Lidstrom could have made more money in free agency if he left Detroit, too. But you stay with your team you think is a winner. And where you made your home.

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07-17-2017, 10:34 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
It's a great franchise in a sunny climate. It's not a hard sell these days. Total tax dollars I think is pretty minimal. The Rangers are still a destination team and will continue to be for free agents. Toronto will always find a way to spend to their cap. And so on. The tax argument only holds up if you ignore years and years of top free agents choosing big market teams with high taxes. The poor New England Patriots can't get any good players to go there.

Tampa made a strong team and people want to stay. Shocking. Lidstrom could have made more money in free agency if he left Detroit, too. But you stay with your team you think is a winner. And where you made your home.
I only made the taxes argument with regards to Johnson being able to take a little less there which would not be the case for Tatar. It was in direct response to the assertion Tatar would make an average of around 4.75 million, which I thought was too small. I think he makes closer to Johnson money than others think just by virtue of the other contracts Holland has signed and the rising cap.

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07-17-2017, 10:50 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
As for the Wings and Holland running the team like a business...

The people on that side will have to choose between their two contradictory arguments. Either Holland is building a winner or he's just claiming to say he is while his actual goal is to squeeze as much money out of the team. You can't simultaneously defend his moves over the past 5 years as being good for the team's contendership and say his only responsibility is to make money off the team so we should stop expecting a contender.

Pick one.
Holland doesn't own the Wings. He's paid to run them. If the owners hate the way he runs things, they'll fire him. The streak and making the playoffs in general was good for business. I'd assume the people making money off the Wings were happy, considering the streak was extended at the cost of everything else and Holland still has a job. The team hasn't been contending for the past 5 years, nor has anyone in their right mind claimed otherwise and certainly no one on this board as far as I know.

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Old
07-17-2017, 10:01 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
I only made the taxes argument with regards to Johnson being able to take a little less there which would not be the case for Tatar. It was in direct response to the assertion Tatar would make an average of around 4.75 million, which I thought was too small. I think he makes closer to Johnson money than others think just by virtue of the other contracts Holland has signed and the rising cap.
Thank you for commenting on the thread at hand.

Personally I think Tatar is going to play hardball for the rest of his time in Detroit.

He will stick to his demands in hopes of either getting traded and/or going UFA.

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07-18-2017, 08:48 AM
  #335
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Old
07-18-2017, 08:49 AM
  #336
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I think that might be for a one year-deal, correct?

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07-18-2017, 08:52 AM
  #337
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Whoa less than Abby and Gus

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Old
07-18-2017, 08:57 AM
  #338
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It's arbitration offers.... One side starts high, other starts low, hope to meet in the middle.

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07-18-2017, 08:59 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Red Winger 87 View Post
I think that might be for a one year-deal, correct?
I would assume it would be.

Because we already know that Holland offered Tatar 5x5 that was turned down by him.

With the Palat and Johnson signings of $5.3M and $5M respectively i would assume that Tatar will get his $5.3 million asking price.

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07-18-2017, 09:00 AM
  #340
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It's arbitration offers.... One side starts high, other starts low, hope to meet in the middle.
Yup which means that they will probably meet in the middle around $4.7M Which for one year of Tatar is pretty fair.

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07-18-2017, 09:04 AM
  #341
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Hope we at least get a good return on him at the deadline.

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07-18-2017, 09:04 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Meet in the middle $4.7 million for 1 year of Tatar is a pretty fair offer, Then deal him at the TDL if we're out of playoff contention.

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07-18-2017, 09:59 AM
  #343
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Meet in the middle $4.7 million for 1 year of Tatar is a pretty fair offer, Then deal him at the TDL if we're out of playoff contention.
Have to deal him, no matter what, because he has already threatened to bolt the team if he doesn't get a long-term deal. And that's not saying that Detroit will even be able to trade him, considering a team will get him for no compensation, a couple months later.

Unless Tatar is having a magical season, I can't imagine we'll get any better than what we got for Vanek.

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07-18-2017, 10:06 AM
  #344
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Have to deal him, no matter what, because he has already threatened to bolt the team if he doesn't get a long-term deal. And that's not saying that Detroit will even be able to trade him, considering a team will get him for no compensation, a couple months later.

Unless Tatar is having a magical season, I can't imagine we'll get any better than what we got for Vanek.
I'm hoping and praying that after his off season shoulder surgery and it being a contract year that he puts the best season of his career between 60-65 points at the very least.

And then maybe at the TDL if we're out of playoff contention, Hopefully we can net at least 2 2nd rounders for him that's probably the best scenario we can hope for.

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07-18-2017, 10:20 AM
  #345
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I'm hoping and praying that after his off season shoulder surgery and it being a contract year that he puts the best season of his career between 60-65 points at the very least.

And then maybe at the TDL if we're out of playoff contention, Hopefully we can net at least 2 2nd rounders for him that's probably the best scenario we can hope for.
Agree. Doubtful any team will want to give up a 1st, for the 2018 draft. So we're going to have to get creative and hope Tatar has a really good year.

Edit:

I also can't imagine what our locker room is going to be like, this year. Z is going to have to pull off a miracle.

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07-18-2017, 10:32 AM
  #346
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I would like to see a longer deal but anything under 5 Million is good value for the organization.

That Helm contract is looking extra frustrating given the way the Tatar negotiations have unfolded. It would seem if only one of Helm/Abby were on the books Holland would have the flexibility to get Tatar signed with term.

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07-18-2017, 12:22 PM
  #347
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Whoa less than Abby and Gus

Brilliant, huh?


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07-18-2017, 12:51 PM
  #348
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So....assuming it goes to arbitration, Bjugstad, Rask looks like the comparables Holland will/could use. Schwarz, Palat, Hoffman look like comparables for Tatar's ask.

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07-18-2017, 01:00 PM
  #349
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Losing the top goal scorer to UFA in a year, neat. Hopefully can get a good deadline return.

On the plus side, we have Abdelkader who can score goals. Or that's what I was told when he was given that ridiculous contract anyway.

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07-18-2017, 01:10 PM
  #350
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Never occurred to me that if it goes to arbitration that Tats will get dealt at the tdl. It will suck to lose him, but we'll get a decent return and losing our best goalscorer will accelerate the rebuild.

We're pretty deep at wing though, so its not a crippling blow.

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