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Phoenix CXXIX: I buy you out, you don't buy me out

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Old
07-16-2017, 08:36 PM
  #401
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Honestly Llama I dont think he/they (IA) had much of a budget to begin with... the $15M from the COG gone before they ever saw it & every nickle from Head Office in NY squeezed so hard the Indian rode the Buffalo... So "what marketing"?.... Canadfest with geriatric rockers Randy Bachman & Lover Boy? Like, making a huge frickin deal out of a Tim Hortons kiosk while reputedly Anthony himself owns the thing along with the Master Franchising rights for Tim Hortons in Arizona which may or may not be true but who cares? Everything else we saw, clearly a no cash contra type arrangement, cross promotion. These guys didnt spend on traditional or non-traditional media, didnt have it to spend. Just... stupefying even still that the NHL installed that crew like it was all above board, and from word go, just.... nothing when it came to kickstarting the franchise with an aggressive marketing, promotional & advertising campaign... So we still dont know. We have no idea if West Valley & Glendale residents will respond because no ones ever targeted them properly as mind blowing as that is to realize, contemplate.
I think people forgot when they took over the very first thing they tried was developing a tailgating environment for Saturday games. Which I believe was something even Nashville was doing this season.

The Canadafest thing was a one time affair that got blown up more on these boards than anywhere else. Tim Hortons took up one whole small stand the first season and another was added in this past year (because evidently... the demand for it was there.)

Anyway..... I think you hit it square K. They had limited marketing funds and their market surveys told them the east valley was where most of their STHs came from so they used what budget they had to hold onto them.

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07-16-2017, 08:40 PM
  #402
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I'm more of a Columbo guy...

LeBlanc had a 75 page business plan...too many of those pages seem to have been devoted to Canadians instead of the locals...

Now...will Barroway flip that?

Time will tell...but he seems to be singularly focused only on a new arena...as he has stated...


It doesn't take that many pages to come up with one concert and a doughnut stand.

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07-16-2017, 09:07 PM
  #403
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It doesn't take that many pages to come up with one concert and a doughnut stand.
That is why LeBlanc will always referred to as LeBluster...

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07-16-2017, 09:09 PM
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Honestly Llama I dont think he/they (IA) had much of a budget to begin with... the $15M from the COG gone before they ever saw it & every nickle from Head Office in NY squeezed so hard the Indian rode the Buffalo... So "what marketing"?.... Canadfest with geriatric rockers Randy Bachman & Lover Boy? Like, making a huge frickin deal out of a Tim Hortons kiosk while reputedly Anthony himself owns the thing along with the Master Franchising rights for Tim Hortons in Arizona which may or may not be true but who cares? Everything else we saw, clearly a no cash contra type arrangement, cross promotion. These guys didnt spend on traditional or non-traditional media, didnt have it to spend. Just... stupefying even still that the NHL installed that crew like it was all above board, and from word go, just.... nothing when it came to kickstarting the franchise with an aggressive marketing, promotional & advertising campaign... So we still dont know. We have no idea if West Valley & Glendale residents will respond because no ones ever targeted them properly as mind blowing as that is to realize, contemplate.
The only thing that LeBlanc targeted was the City of Glendale...for his own shortcomings...

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07-16-2017, 09:22 PM
  #405
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I think that under LeBlanc...too much money was catering to the Canadian Snow Birds and the Tim Horton crowd...instead of where it should have been going from the very start...which are the locals...whether they be from eastside, westside, or from downtown...
The damage had already been done, though. I will never understand why Jerry Moyes, a self-proclaimed Glendale die-hard, allowed his home fan base to wither away... unless he was so busy using the Coyotes as collateral for his trucking company that he didn't feel like it was necessary.

But no, LeBlanc and company trying to turn Glendale into Saska-Two was a terrible idea. Much as I loved having the Rough Rider fans down here every year, catering to snowbirds as your core fan base (this was before they switched tacks and started calling East Valley fans their core fan base) was a recipe for local apathy.

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Now...will Barroway flip that?
I hope for the franchise's sake he does. But one wonders if he's going to bother so long as the team is in Glendale. The way the arena was suffering from basic failures of maintenance last year, there may be an effort to paint what is really a stellar facility if it's kept up as "falling apart" so that they can justify lobbying for a new barn somewhere else. Yeah, that's pretty tinfoil of me, but I can't be the only season ticket holder who felt like the atmosphere was becoming purposefully antiseptic over the past couple of seasons.

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07-16-2017, 09:36 PM
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...I hope for the franchise's sake he does. But one wonders if he's going to bother so long as the team is in Glendale. The way the arena was suffering from basic failures of maintenance last year, there may be an effort to paint what is really a stellar facility if it's kept up as "falling apart" so that they can justify lobbying for a new barn somewhere else. Yeah, that's pretty tinfoil of me, but I can't be the only season ticket holder who felt like the atmosphere was becoming purposefully antiseptic over the past couple of seasons.
Yes...Glendale is the 'why bother' part of the equation as Barroway can use the automatic lease renewal trigger...but that will not bring home the bacon as far as revenue is concerned...

The 'falling apart' is a good narrative for Barroway...classic misdirection...

It does not appear that there will be much change over the LeBlanc era...as I do not think that Barroway has the budget to do much else...as his singular focus is only on a new arena...and the cost in lobbying efforts that that will entail...likely leaves little else for spending on things like marketing...


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07-16-2017, 09:49 PM
  #407
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I think people forgot when they took over the very first thing they tried was developing a tailgating environment for Saturday games. Which I believe was something even Nashville was doing this season.

The Canadafest thing was a one time affair that got blown up more on these boards than anywhere else. Tim Hortons took up one whole small stand the first season and another was added in this past year (because evidently... the demand for it was there.)

Anyway..... I think you hit it square K. They had limited marketing funds and their market surveys told them the east valley was where most of their STHs came from so they used what budget they had to hold onto them.
As a Winnipegger that has to venture out occasionally in near blizzard conditions to watch a hockey game, I don't want to hear about any ****ing tailgating before a game.


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07-16-2017, 11:43 PM
  #408
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A few things. 1) how many season ticket holders in any market go to 41 games per year? 2) if there were so many fans who would be going to games if the arena was closer why aren't those fans watching on TV? 3) The first couple of years at GRA they drew about the same as the first couple of years downtown. So is arena "location" really a problem 4) They have been in Glendale for 14 years. Why hasn't a fan base developed on that side of the valley?
1. Not many
2. They go for the entertainment and experience of being at a game. Tv isn't the same thing. But, if more people went to games with an east valley location, more would watch games too.
3. The buzz in Glendale made up for the difference initially, but it wasn't sustainable.
4. Lower income area.

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07-17-2017, 09:47 AM
  #409
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But, if more people went to games with an east valley location, more would watch games too.
How would that work?

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3. The buzz in Glendale made up for the difference initially, but it wasn't sustainable.
Really? Why do you say that?

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4. Lower income area.
I call BS on this. There are depressed areas in the West Valley, yes, but this assertion is like saying that Mesa is low-income because it's right next to Apache Junction or that Tempe is low-income because it's right next to Guadalupe. East Siders would have the world believe that anything west of the Piestewa Freeway is an Alhambra-style hellscape. It's not true.

The fact is that it would be stupendously easy to come up with 15,000 fans per game in the West Valley if a) the team cared about building up a base there and b) the team dragged itself out of the basement. The other fact is that all of these sour grapes from East Side fans are going to look really embarrassing if they don't deliver on their promises if the Coyotes get an East Valley arena - and looking over the attendance history prior to 2003, there's precedent that says they might not.

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07-17-2017, 10:25 AM
  #410
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I call BS on this. There are depressed areas in the West Valley, yes, but this assertion is like saying that Mesa is low-income because it's right next to Apache Junction or that Tempe is low-income because it's right next to Guadalupe. East Siders would have the world believe that anything west of the Piestewa Freeway is an Alhambra-style hellscape. It's not true.
It's absolutely true, which is why every study done by the team has lead them to move eastward. There's simply more disposable income. You're in denial on this one.

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07-17-2017, 10:42 AM
  #411
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http://www.city-data.com/income/inco...x-Arizona.html

100 different ways to see household incomes.

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07-17-2017, 10:58 AM
  #412
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It's absolutely true, which is why every study done by the team has lead them to move eastward. There's simply more disposable income. You're in denial on this one.
The only studies the team has done are back cataloguing their season ticket base to see who buys from where. And yes, there are more season-ticket buyers in the East Valley than in the west. But IIRC there are less than 8,000 season ticket holders IN TOTAL for the team, which means that the "eastern bias" is more or less irrelevant and could be easily accounted for by a sales team that would focus its efforts closer to the team's current home.

Barroway is not going to do this because he's all in on an East Valley arena deal. But again, improbability /= impossibility.

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07-17-2017, 11:08 AM
  #413
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I call BS on this. There are depressed areas in the West Valley, yes, but this assertion is like saying that Mesa is low-income because it's right next to Apache Junction or that Tempe is low-income because it's right next to Guadalupe. East Siders would have the world believe that anything west of the Piestewa Freeway is an Alhambra-style hellscape. It's not true.
.... very colorful, and yes, its true. I had in-laws at one time who wintered in Scottsdale (from horsey country Pennsylvania & the Mother n' Law from a long monied family & as pretentious as they come) and I remember some of the convo's I heard about the West Side vs East Side, stuff you'd hear from strangers, read in the papers, see on the news. Obviously the East Valley communities, the roadways etc, just everything a lot more established & older. Lots more to do and considerably more upscale. The West Valley before the developments in places like Tolleson & Glendale with Westgate actually noted for its Gangbanger & Redneck Culture. Like the outskirts of LA. Crime etc.

And to many on the East Side even with the rapid development they still look at the West Side in that light. That sure you get more bang for your buck in terms of housing, square footage & lot size, buy a place that went up 11 minutes ago for like 1/2 or less than what youd pay on the East Side, cheap, and then like all West Siders, go line up & shop big box off-brand... but who the Hell wants to put up with all of that & live next to Joe Dirt? Kids demanding they be allowed to grow Mullets, take up smoking at 12?.... Deal with the commute's every day... East Siders, head starts spinning, nose starts to bleed apparently the minute they cross Piestewa as you state. Cant handle it. This (and more) is what I recall hearing-seeing-reading and a lot of it beyond amusing, hysterical. Serious serious competition & derision, barbs thrown both ways back & forth, East vs West & West vs East. Been going on for ages.

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07-17-2017, 11:16 AM
  #414
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The only studies the team has done are back cataloguing their season ticket base to see who buys from where. And yes, there are more season-ticket buyers in the East Valley than in the west. But IIRC there are less than 8,000 season ticket holders IN TOTAL for the team, which means that the "eastern bias" is more or less irrelevant and could be easily accounted for by a sales team that would focus its efforts closer to the team's current home.

Barroway is not going to do this because he's all in on an East Valley arena deal. But again, improbability /= impossibility.
You seem to have access/information to this back cataloguing and the 8,000 season ticket figure...do you have actual reports/links to this?

Barroway is all in for his new East Valley arena...but so far, everyone is calling his bluff...and with Patterson now sitting at the empty chair that was left by LeBlanc's failed hand...it should be a quick exit for Patterson, as well...

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07-17-2017, 11:39 AM
  #415
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The only studies the team has done are back cataloguing their season ticket base to see who buys from where. And yes, there are more season-ticket buyers in the East Valley than in the west. But IIRC there are less than 8,000 season ticket holders IN TOTAL for the team, which means that the "eastern bias" is more or less irrelevant and could be easily accounted for by a sales team that would focus its efforts closer to the team's current home.

Barroway is not going to do this because he's all in on an East Valley arena deal. But again, improbability /= impossibility.
Did you get that number from the Moyes BK TFP?... Weve been trying to determine that number for years so if you have a source please reveal, illuminate or are you just sort of "guessing" based on anecdotal maybe from your Coyotes ticket rep combined with eye-measurement in terms of attendance?.... Regardless, I agree its "irrelevant" as no ones ever bothered to launch an aggressive marketing & advertising sales campaign right in their own backyard which is absolutely stupefying. I mean, it would almost be like the Islanders when they were on Long Island marketing exclusively to people in Brooklyn & NYC.... Why wouldnt you first go after the low hanging fruit? Insane... So we just dont know.

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You seem to have access/information to this back cataloguing and the 8,000 season ticket figure...do you have actual reports/links to this?

Barroway is all in for his new East Valley arena...but so far, everyone is calling his bluff...and with Patterson now sitting at the empty chair that was left by LeBlanc's failed hand...it should be a quick exit for Patterson, as well...
.... obviously targeting the East Valley having fully committed to moving there. They wont retreat from their madness for to do so, to actually try & cultivate West Valley fans would undermine their objectives. Look, you cant just drop a building into anywhere & expect through osmosis & a matter of sheer convenience that people will showup, buy tickets, but you start within that radius be it suburban or urban... or I guess you can just go nuts as Cleveland did back in the 70's with Richfield Coliseum, build it out in the absolute middle of nowhere next to absolutely nothing at all but herds of Guernseys' & watch it fail.

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07-17-2017, 11:48 AM
  #416
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.... obviously targeting the East Valley having fully committed to moving there. They wont retreat from their madness for to do so, to actually try & cultivate West Valley fans would undermine their objectives. Look, you cant just drop a building into anywhere & expect through osmosis & a matter of sheer convenience that people will showup, buy tickets, but you start within that radius be it suburban or urban... or I guess you can just go nuts as Cleveland did back in the 70's with Richfield Coliseum, build it out in the absolute middle of nowhere next to absolutely nothing at all but herds of Guernseys' & watch it fail.
That is actually what LeBlanc did and what Patterson is now picking up the banner for...
I would also expect the narrative to continue to be a 50/50 (or less) partnership with whomever is going to listen...
with Barroway receiving subsidies/tax incentives, etc...to make it all viable, of course...

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07-17-2017, 11:55 AM
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^^^^^

Patterson has been the CEO less than a week and already the narrative that "everyone is calling his bluff" and the chaining of that dead horse named "LeBlanc" to it all is in full swing.


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07-17-2017, 11:59 AM
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Did you get that number from the Moyes BK TFP?... Weve been trying to determine that number for years so if you have a source please reveal, illuminate or are you just sort of "guessing" based on anecdotal maybe from your Coyotes ticket rep combined with eye-measurement in terms of attendance?....
I'm guesstimating the number of full-season ticket holders based on what I've seen in person over the course of a season. I thought the number had been released by IA in a news story but I was wrong - the only information officially released was the breakdown of percentages fed to Craig Morgan back in March.

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07-17-2017, 12:00 PM
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^^^^^

Patterson has been the CEO less than a week and already the narrative that "everyone is calling his bluff" and the chaining of that dead horse named "LeBlanc" to it all is in full swing.

In this case...past performance is likely indicative of future results...

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07-17-2017, 12:09 PM
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^^^^^

Patterson has been the CEO less than a week and already the narrative that "everyone is calling his bluff" and the chaining of that dead horse named "LeBlanc" to it all is in full swing.

.... yes, me thinks that particular statement a tad assumptive, hyperbolic however it is their stated mission to "look at all options" in trying to find a new home, those links created and forged under LeBlanc & Barroway ergo those links in the chain have not been severed. Indeed, Steve Patterson hired in large part due to his experience in working with various municipal & state authorities, commercial real estate investors & lenders, sports teams & leagues, a guy with local connections who's main task is the pursuit of a new building in the Valley of the Sun.... And having witnessed the abomination of the aborted Worsley Bill, one has to ask; who's beating the dead horse? It is perfectly reasonable to opine that Patterson merely the newest link in a chain already forged, taking the handoff, the baton from LeBlanc's hand and thus....



.................................................. ............................. and, that it wont make a hill of beans of difference. Local, experienced or not. Lunacy is lunacy.

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07-17-2017, 12:18 PM
  #421
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.... yes, me thinks that particular statement a tad assumptive, hyperbolic however it is their stated mission to "look at all options" in trying to find a new home, those links created and forged under LeBlanc & Barroway ergo those links in the chain have not been severed. Indeed, Steve Patterson hired in large part due to his experience in working with various municipal & state authorities, commercial real estate investors & lenders, sports teams & leagues, a guy with local connections who's main task is the pursuit of a new building in the Valley of the Sun.... And having witnessed the abomination of the aborted Worsley Bill, one has to ask; who's beating the dead horse? It is perfectly reasonable to opine that Patterson merely the newest link in a chain already forged, taking the handoff, the baton from LeBlanc's hand and thus....



.................................................. ............................. and, that it wont make a hill of beans of difference. Local, experienced or not. Lunacy is lunacy.
Patterson is not the newest link...he has been part of the chain for some time...

To quote:

"A familiar name could play a key role in the Coyotes’ quest for a new arena. Former Arizona State and Texas athletic director Steve Patterson confirmed that he is serving as a consultant for “multiple parties” in the Valley through his company, Pro Sports Consulting. Two separate sources confirmed that Patterson is involved in some capacity with the Coyotes’ search for a new arena.

Patterson confirmed that there have been inquiries made to the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community, but he stressed that it was interested parties that approached the community about building an arena, rather than the other way around. He also stressed he is not working for the community.

“I have only spent some time talking with parties looking at arena options, but that could happen in a number of places,” he said. “It would be very premature to say we are far down that road (with the tribal community). It really is more about people looking at opportunities.”"

Source: http://arizonasports.com/story/62252...coyotes-arena/

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07-17-2017, 12:23 PM
  #422
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and, that it wont make a hill of beans of difference. Local, experienced or not. Lunacy is lunacy.
If the endgame is a downtown arena shared with the Suns, is it still lunacy?

Sarver doesn't want to partner with the Coyotes... right now, anyway. But if the City of Phoenix elects (stupidly) to offer subsidies for a dual-use state-of-the-art arena to replace Talking Stick Resort Arena (which, as anyone who has gone to the building for any reason will tell you, is in desperate need of replacement or renovation), and Patterson can do his schmoozing bit to convince CoP of this and sell Sarver on the benefits thereof... well, it'd be the best possible scenario for the Mutts.

"Lunacy" should be reserved for the idea of building a complete bespoke Coyotes arena in an East Valley city which would have to foot half the construction costs, own thing thing outright (and thus be responsible for maintenance/upkeep costs), and STILL pay "maintenance fees" (i.e. subsidies) on top of that every year. No amount of connections is going to be good enough for Patterson to find a Phoenix Metro city that gullible... at least you'd hope that would be the case.

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07-17-2017, 12:49 PM
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I'm guesstimating the number of full-season ticket holders based on what I've seen in person over the course of a season. I thought the number had been released by IA in a news story but I was wrong - the only information officially released was the breakdown of percentages fed to Craig Morgan back in March.
Yeah, we unfortunately not privy to the STH count, no idea what the % is based on attendance, fools game to try & guesstimate based on known numbers & %'s from elsewhere in the league given the state of the franchise. I have a hard time believing its anywhere close to 8000 though TFP. I'd be more inclined to project, guess that its 2500-4000, in that range.

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If the endgame is a downtown arena shared with the Suns, is it still lunacy?

Sarver doesn't want to partner with the Coyotes... right now, anyway. But if the City of Phoenix elects (stupidly) to offer subsidies for a dual-use state-of-the-art arena to replace Talking Stick Resort Arena (which, as anyone who has gone to the building for any reason will tell you, is in desperate need of replacement or renovation), and Patterson can do his schmoozing bit to convince CoP of this and sell Sarver on the benefits thereof... well, it'd be the best possible scenario for the Mutts.

"Lunacy" should be reserved for the idea of building a complete bespoke Coyotes arena in an East Valley city which would have to foot half the construction costs, own thing thing outright (and thus be responsible for maintenance/upkeep costs), and STILL pay "maintenance fees" (i.e. subsidies) on top of that every year. No amount of connections is going to be good enough for Patterson to find a Phoenix Metro city that gullible... at least you'd hope that would be the case.
Yes, yes it is, and that would include the City of Phoenix losing its mind as they did in Glendale in providing not only a sweetheart lease agreement for both teams but so too massive subsidies to each because..... they'd have to. The Suns & Coyotes would need them to survive in a shared facility, sharing revenues. That 50% split, resultant loss in revenues of 50% to each team would have to be made up from elsewhere & the only place they'll get it is from the public trough as you detail above. So I still call that Lunacy just as I'd call another new arena bespoke for the Coyotes exclusively Lunacy. If a shared facility in Downtown Phoenix (or anywhere for that matter) then someone along the lines of a Steve Ballmer would have to appear with more money than God, buying out Sarver & Barroway, single ownership and with the kind of War Chest that would rival all the gold & currency, jewels & artwork pilfered by the Nazi's & the Imperial Japanese Army combined, maxing salary CAP in both leagues, dropping huge dollars on talent on & off the court/ice, administratively, in sales, marketing, promotion & advertising. Fully prepared to eat losses for a full generation and a half at minimum.

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07-17-2017, 01:00 PM
  #424
Dirty Old Man
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yeah, we unfortunately not privy to the STH count, no idea what the % is based on attendance, fools game to try & guesstimate based on known numbers & %'s from elsewhere in the league given the state of the franchise. I have a hard time believing its anywhere close to 8000 though TFP. I'd be more inclined to project, guess that its 2500-4000, in that range.
I could believe including partials it's that high.

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07-17-2017, 01:03 PM
  #425
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Patterson is not the newest link...he has been part of the chain for some time...

To quote:

"A familiar name could play a key role in the Coyotes’ quest for a new arena. Former Arizona State and Texas athletic director Steve Patterson confirmed that he is serving as a consultant for “multiple parties” in the Valley through his company, Pro Sports Consulting. Two separate sources confirmed that Patterson is involved in some capacity with the Coyotes’ search for a new arena.

Patterson confirmed that there have been inquiries made to the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community, but he stressed that it was interested parties that approached the community about building an arena, rather than the other way around. He also stressed he is not working for the community.

“I have only spent some time talking with parties looking at arena options, but that could happen in a number of places,” he said. “It would be very premature to say we are far down that road (with the tribal community). It really is more about people looking at opportunities.”"

Source: http://arizonasports.com/story/62252...coyotes-arena/
Right. I was aware of his consultancy, didnt phrase his preexisting relationship as being "a chain in the link" because outside advisors, lobbyists & their ilk are 2nd & 3rd party players. Hired guns. Freelancers. Self employed or maybe employed by whomever else. Not "in-house". Not employee's or owners. Once they become so then they go from from being a charm on the chain to becoming an actual link in that chain...... Thats the way I look at it. Way it is.... Ha?... Get with the program Maing.

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