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Nikita Zadorov Discussion Part II

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Old
07-17-2017, 12:36 AM
  #526
BrickAHL
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Originally Posted by sea eagles View Post
what? Bednar has 5 players from 21 players who took part in the 13-14 playoff series. 23%

i'd call it vastly different.

Bednar hasn't even been given a chance.
15-16

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07-17-2017, 12:37 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by tigervixxxen View Post
How many people in this org would get a job elsewhere? I'm sure consideration that some have been around hockey for an eternity but otherwise the upstairs product mirrors the on ice product of a bunch of guys who wouldn't be in the league otherwise.

I tired of hearing being in the running for the playoff delusion bubble is some sort of accomplishment. Maybe it leads to a few more watchable games but it also leads to a few more bad decisions.
+ Bednar just came from The Columbus system - so he'd be hired
+ Bennett has come out of a successful Blues & others systems
+ Parkilla has international experience and comes from another system
+ Pratt plied his trade in various systems in the AHL
+ Macfarland has just come out of the Bluejackets system
+ Jesus, even Hemilich spent 9 years with The Sharks, so he'd be hired elsewhere

Why is everyone so damned negative?

TV, we've lost plenty. People are saying we've got the same roster. So we've experienced that. Surely scraping into the playoffs would add MUCH more to our young boys development that perpetually losing?

For the record, why does performing better lead to more worse decisions? Take Duchene aside for a minute (because I completely disagree on that front with most people here), what bad decisions have been made at all this off season?

Come on TV, chin up.

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07-17-2017, 12:41 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by BrickAHL View Post
15-16
Oh right - 21st overall is bubble these days.

Sorry, I disagree. To me, bubble means 15th to 18th (and I don't care how many points difference that equates to. )

Give Bednar a FAIR go & shake, then hang, draw and quarter the poor guy after he gets a say in roster, coaching, system decisions.

I wonder everyone, how did Rantanen go this season? Did we see development? Tell you what, it wasn't from the AHL the season before where we all saw a mass exodus, and players having a go at SAR's coaching. But let me guess, just to remain negative, Rantanen was "always" going to naturally develop regardless of who the coach is, and what system he plays, hey?

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07-17-2017, 12:44 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Sea Eagles View Post
Oh right - 21st overall is bubble these days.

Sorry, I disagree. To me, bubble means 15th to 18th (and I don't care how many points difference that equates to. )

Give Bednar a FAIR go & shake, then hang, draw and quarter the poor guy after he gets a say in roster, coaching, system decisions.

I wonder everyone, how did Rantanen go this season? Did we see development? Tell you what, it wasn't from the AHL the season before where we all saw a mass exodus, and players having a go at SAR's coaching. But let me guess, just to remain negative, Rantanen was "always" going to naturally develop regardless of who the coach is, and what system he plays, hey?
Correct.

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07-17-2017, 12:53 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Sea Eagles View Post
Oh right - 21st overall is bubble these days.

Sorry, I disagree. To me, bubble means 15th to 18th (and I don't care how many points difference that equates to. )

Give Bednar a FAIR go & shake, then hang, draw and quarter the poor guy after he gets a say in roster, coaching, system decisions.

I wonder everyone, how did Rantanen go this season? Did we see development? Tell you what, it wasn't from the AHL the season before where we all saw a mass exodus, and players having a go at SAR's coaching. But let me guess, just to remain negative, Rantanen was "always" going to naturally develop regardless of who the coach is, and what system he plays, hey?
Yes. Bednar did give him more rope but he really didnt have much of a choice. Rantanen was coming off an amazing AHL season and Rantanen did not flounder when given the chance.

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07-17-2017, 08:22 AM
  #531
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Saying Bednar was a main reason for the Rantanen development is like saying Sacco played an important part in developing Ryan O'Reilly.

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07-17-2017, 09:19 AM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Eagles View Post
Oh right - 21st overall is bubble these days.

Sorry, I disagree. To me, bubble means 15th to 18th (and I don't care how many points difference that equates to. )

Give Bednar a FAIR go & shake, then hang, draw and quarter the poor guy after he gets a say in roster, coaching, system decisions.

I wonder everyone, how did Rantanen go this season? Did we see development? Tell you what, it wasn't from the AHL the season before where we all saw a mass exodus, and players having a go at SAR's coaching. But let me guess, just to remain negative, Rantanen was "always" going to naturally develop regardless of who the coach is, and what system he plays, hey?
He had one. He had more time than a coach who replaces a fired coach mid-season. Did he have to cram a lot of video in on the Avs players and whatnot? Sure he did, but he had time to do that and a full training camp/pre-season to implement his system and style of play.

This absurd notion that he "didn't get a fair shake" is just that--absurd. The guy took a team that an average coach (which I would agree w/ Henchy's assertion that that's what Roy was) had competing for the Playoffs and led them to a 48 point season.

A team that was so bad under Jared Bednar that even a 20 point improvement this year would still get them only 68 points and damn near assuredly a Top-4 pick in the draft.

But that's beside the point--he already got a "fair shake". He was abysmal. Now since Joe's already decided to bring him back, all we can do is hope that he learned something from this season, but unless that "something" is "How do I get the most out of my players?" and "How can I not stifle offensive creativity?", then I would say it's likely that he will be shown the door rather quickly.

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07-17-2017, 09:49 AM
  #533
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End of the day, it's a moot point debating the merits of Bednar, because whether we like it or not, he's going to start the year with us. Personally, I think Bennett's insight and experience will do Bednar wonders.

Given timing, injuries, pre-existing culture, roster make-up etc. I think Bednar certainly had at LEAST bad luck, if we won't allow excuses.

BUT, as it appears is our lot in life as an Avs fan, everything always comes down to the coach. Joel Quenneville left us in 2008. Therefore, in the past 9 years, we have had Quenneville, Granato, Sacco, Roy & Bednar (5 coaches in 9 years), but sure, it's still the coaches fault according to everyone.

There has to be a point where we draw a line in the sand, and suggest maybe it's something else, surely?

To be honest, and I know this will draw a lot of the ire, but I felt each and every coach we have had have been very good. I find it amusing they come in, we have an amazing season, then the effort quickly dies away - it's a repeating pattern.

Therefore, I also say maybe it's not SKILL we are lacking like most claim.

Nope, I've debated this until I'm blue in the face. It's culture people. It's expectation, pride, effort and passion.
X Roy stating pre-season games mean nothing, and the losses don't matter was poor culturally.
X Roy ripping the glass of its mourings showed passion, and the team lifted that year.
X Franois Giguere stating 19th overall was considered successful was poor culturally.
X J S Giguere calling the bums out for having "Vegas Culture" 75% of the way through the season IS good for culture.
X Joe Sakic claiming they didn't expect to compete last season given circumstance was very poor culturally.

etc etc etc. To be winners, act like winners, both on and off the ice.

Imagine standing in front of Forsberg, Foote, Sakic, Roy, Blake & others, and stating there was zero expectation on the season. Anyone even hinting at that at the time would have been slapped upside the head.

We have the talent. We have the coaching. We have the ownership. Get the attitude right, and the wins will come, and we'll be playing hockey when other teams are playing golf.

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07-17-2017, 09:57 AM
  #534
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You have to remember every single other team has good prospects, a few NHL stars, some experience. At some point you have to strive to be better than what the average team has and work towards that. The players will always believe that they can make the difference, as they should as highly competitive athletes at the very top of their sport. But an organization can't bank on that as their only path to success. It's their job to give their players the tools, environment and support they need to achieve their greatest possibility of success.

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07-17-2017, 10:23 AM
  #535
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Any guesses as to when Z signs here? I need some optimism this morning. I just cant believe its mid July and they don't have this guy locked up yet.

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07-17-2017, 10:31 AM
  #536
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One thing I hate is that Bednar being a rookie coach allows the players another excuse. Roy wanted to move on from some of the core, and we were ready to say that the core needed to be replaced.

Enter Sakic hiring Bednar, and doubling down on the players. Well another coach even worse results. Bednar's main failing was with the veteran players, and at the end of last year the team was in more games, even with injuries and excuses still present.

Bednar has his flaws, but do we really believe last season was all on Bednar? I don't like that hes coming back either, but they made an appropriate hire to cover his weakness on the offensive side of the ice. There is at least some possibility that Bednar grows as well.

I am personally willing to have a shred of optimism myself. Not that we're going to do anything amazing next season, but that we'll get development from our young players and continue to grow. Which is all any of us can expect with this roster. Bednar did fine with our younger players, and it's been infuriating that they were jerked around and not always put in the best position to succeed in the past. Now that we have a coach who will do that it's completely forgotten about.

The excuse that he didn't have much time to prepare for the season is just a BS tag line for the casuals that the organization spit out. No one here should be falling for that.

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07-17-2017, 10:42 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by The Kingslayer View Post
Any guesses as to when Z signs here? I need some optimism this morning. I just cant believe its mid July and they don't have this guy locked up yet.
We'll considering he said he's giving them until the end of July, I sincerely hope it's within the next few weeks.

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07-17-2017, 10:58 AM
  #538
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It would be one thing if the Avs had a ~75-80 point season... that could be a bump in the road and a number of factors could have allowed that to happen. It wasn't that though, it was debatably the worst season a team has had in the modern era. This wasn't an expansion team, it wasn't a team that was allowed to be on a shoestring budget (cap floor in place), it wasn't a team outright tanking... it was just an abysmal team.

Let's put it this way... if Roy had stuck around and been fired 5-10 games into the season and Bednar would have been given the interim head coach label...there wouldn't have been a single chance he would have gotten the head job. That would have been an even worse situation to be brought into, and he wouldn't be given the benefit of doubt.

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07-17-2017, 11:03 AM
  #539
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The bumping of this thread keeps getting my hopes up. Shame on you all.

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07-17-2017, 11:07 AM
  #540
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The bumping of this thread keeps getting my hopes up. Shame on you all.
The momentous occasion shall be given its own thread when it happens.

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07-17-2017, 11:15 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
It would be one thing if the Avs had a ~75-80 point season... that could be a bump in the road and a number of factors could have allowed that to happen. It wasn't that though, it was debatably the worst season a team has had in the modern era. This wasn't an expansion team, it wasn't a team that was allowed to be on a shoestring budget (cap floor in place), it wasn't a team outright tanking... it was just an abysmal team.

Let's put it this way... if Roy had stuck around and been fired 5-10 games into the season and Bednar would have been given the interim head coach label...there wouldn't have been a single chance he would have gotten the head job. That would have been an even worse situation to be brought into, and he wouldn't be given the benefit of doubt.
I know you will always be here to fight this fight, but in the areas that we give a **** about this coming season, Bednar performed fine.

No one is expecting Bednar to win the Jack Adams, and I mean that with all the snark possible that surrounds that award.

Edit : And as far as the offensive side of the ice goes. They made the appropriate correction there. So I'm not as worried about that as I had been in the past. The offense is what made me hate Bednar, and if that can be corrected, there is more of a chance that our best players have seasons on par with what would be expected, or even take the next step.

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07-17-2017, 11:18 AM
  #542
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I know you will always be here to fight this fight, but in the areas that we give a **** about this coming season, Bednar performed fine.

No one is expecting Bednar to win the Jack Adams, and I mean that with all the snark possible that surrounds that award.
I wholeheartedly disagree. IMO Bednar's performance last season was monumentally bad, one of the single worst coaching performances I have ever seen.

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07-17-2017, 11:19 AM
  #543
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I know you will always be here to fight this fight, but in the areas that we give a **** about this coming season, Bednar performed fine.

No one is expecting Bednar to win the Jack Adams, and I mean that with all the snark possible that surrounds that award.
What areas do we give a **** about? And how do you know he performed fine in them when this coming season hasn't even happened yet?

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07-17-2017, 11:39 AM
  #544
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I wholeheartedly disagree. IMO Bednar's performance last season was monumentally bad, one of the single worst coaching performances I have ever seen.
You know it sounds like you are isolating three words, and responding to them out of context. I know you don't think Bednar did anything good, but how hard is it to articulate that instead of pulling the same kind of stunt that media does when pushing a narrative?

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What areas do we give a **** about? And how do you know he performed fine in them when this coming season hasn't even happened yet?
Developing the younger players, and putting them in positions to succeed. I know it seems like an arbitrary thing, but a coach who is willing to do those things isn't one that's worried about his job security.

Yeah a monkey could do that job with the right assistants, but the team isn't going to be expected to win next year.

I personally like how he handled all of MacKinnon, Rantanen, Zadorov, Compher, Jost, Ghetto, and Greer. Even a guy like Lindholm was given ice to show what he had. He clearly leans toward the younger players who give 100% every shift. We don't need a coach who is going to be afraid of playing some guys just to pry five more points out of the season total.

Don't mistake this as me pumping Bednar's tires as a tactician, but Bennett should help with that. Which makes me less afraid of a negative impact on the already established core players. I also agree he handled Soda and Colborne poorly, but they are not the future of this team.


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07-17-2017, 11:48 AM
  #545
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
Saying Bednar was a main reason for the Rantanen development is like saying Sacco played an important part in developing Ryan O'Reilly.
completely irrelevant, but you can give Sacco a ton of **** for a ton of reasons, but one thing he did really well during his time as head coach was developing young talent

Duchene, ROR, Barrie, Stewart, Galiardi, Jones, Yip, (briefly) Elliott, and Wilson are all examples of guys who had career years or close to it under his coaching

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07-17-2017, 01:24 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
You know it sounds like you are isolating three words, and responding to them out of context. I know you don't think Bednar did anything good, but how hard is it to articulate that instead of pulling the same kind of stunt that media does when pushing a narrative?
I've articulated it enough over the past, I didn't want to go too crazy going through that on a Z thread.

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07-17-2017, 01:34 PM
  #547
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It's weird...the team went through similar changes following both of those fluke "resurgent" seasons under Sacco and Roy. Both times the team effectively said "we need to get tougher" and essentially destroyed their puckmoving ability. It was actually even worse under Sacco, they effectively swapped out Liles for Hejda and became a pure chip-and-chase team. EJ even said Sacco didn't want him skating the puck much farther than the red line.

Now, whether those changes took place at the behest of Sacco himself or management, it's hard to say. I feel like those changes weren't necessarily Sacco's to make, he just made adjustments based on what he was given.

You can't say Sacco absolutely didn't develop talent. For better or worse he got the most out of what guys like Stewart, Wolski, and Galiardi were willing/able to put out there. O'Reilly flourished under Sacco and it's clear Duchene's struggles weren't just limited to one coach. That's not to say Joe Sacco was a great coach, but I also don't think he was awful either.

I actually do think Roy was a terrible coach though. I don't want to get into it in this thread though...I've derailed it enough.

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07-17-2017, 02:39 PM
  #548
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If Z is on this team this year I really really hope they give him all the PP time he can handle. No reason not to play him on the PP now that they aren't trying to give Francois the push he sorely needed to make a name in this league.

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07-17-2017, 02:47 PM
  #549
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I'm not sure Z would get PP time next year. EJ, Barrie, and Barberio are certainly ahead of him, I'd have to imagine. When EJ inevitably gets hurt he'll get in.

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07-17-2017, 02:50 PM
  #550
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I'm not sure Z would get PP time next year. EJ, Barrie, and Barberio are certainly ahead of him, I'd have to imagine. When EJ inevitably gets hurt he'll get in.
Why would you think Barberio is ahead of Z for the power play?

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