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Article: It's time for Kenny to go

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Old
07-17-2017, 01:16 PM
  #76
stu the grim reaper
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rants about someone in sports needing to be fired are so boring and cookie-cutter

try saying something specific and postivistic instead of "not him" "not this"

if there was a hockey jim harbaugh waiting in the wings to step in and save the team, that would be one thing. But pro sports franchises are designed to boom and bust. The penguins have crosby and malkin because they were so bad, they almost left pittsburg. chicago has kane because they were managed so miserly that their games werent even on tv. if we had a new GM--a young ambitious guy with fresh eyes and a brand new will to prove himself, would he necessarily build a contender any faster than a proven insider?

I think anti-holland sentiment says more about the latent biases on this message board than anything--youth is better than experience, talent is better than know-how, the future will be better than the present, the unknown is more exciting than what we have right now

Those things can be true to a certain extent, but they're not true as articles of faith

After awhile it becomes as meaningless as complaining that your boss at work is a jerk, or that your parents are unfair, or the president is making us fall behind china

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07-17-2017, 01:28 PM
  #77
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You don't need a specific name as a replacement to be able to say that the current GM is not doing their job properly for this hockey club. I don't need a specific name to say that this team needs a 1C or a 1D, but we need those things.

Holland has been the GM of this team for 20 years, that is an eternity in sports, especially in this era. Holland has never rebuilt a team, he took over as GM when this team was a cup contender with Hall of Fame talent. He expertly maintained this team and was fortunate to draft Datsyuk and Z with later round picks.

I'd love to snag someone from Nashville to be our new GM, I'd love to snag someone from Chicago or St. Louis.

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Old
07-17-2017, 01:29 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izlez View Post
Oh boy

The people who were pushing and pushing and pushing for the past 5 years for the "kids", like Tatar, Nyquist, Ouellet, Sproul, Jensen, Marchenko, Jarnkrok, Pulkinnen, Frk, Ferraro,
and Callahan to play, are claiming that they were proven right and smarter than the GM.

Yet we have those people playing now, and we are no good.


As per usual, nobody ever had an actual plan to build a winner other than "be bad"
The entire mentality is that with the roster we have now, we should be giving more looks to kids earlier to see what they can do.

If they are good over the next couple seasons, we give them more ice time and can work to grow the team around them. If they aren't, we move on or trade them for other assets, whatever they might be.

Either way, we learn about the kids earlier so we can make moves earlier. Instead of waiting till they are in their mid-20s and the core has already aged.

"Being bad" is a typical go-to for the franchise because it is how you draft high and get stars regularly. Trading to get a cup doesn't work unless you have the assets to do so, and we haven't had those assets (as if Holland would have made a trade, anyway). "Being bad" is more of a plan than anyone who defends Holland these days has provided.

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07-17-2017, 01:29 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
If someone missed this two weeks ago, please LISTEN:

https://soundcloud.com/officialredwi...-the-red-wings

There's kind of everything we need to know about Kenny's plans.
What exactly did you get from this? It was another typical GM cliche fest.

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07-17-2017, 01:38 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izlez View Post
Oh boy

The people who were pushing and pushing and pushing for the past 5 years for the "kids", like Tatar, Nyquist, Ouellet, Sproul, Jensen, Marchenko, Jarnkrok, Pulkinnen, Frk, Ferraro,
and Callahan to play, are claiming that they were proven right and smarter than the GM.

Yet we have those people playing now, and we are no good.


As per usual, nobody ever had an actual plan to build a winner other than "be bad"
People wanted to see those players instead of guys in their late 30's that clearly weren't the future like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, Legwand, Alfredsson, etc.

It was the logical thing to do for a team that needed to initiate a re-build in the seemingly very near future. Play the kids and see what's there. So we know where we are and what we need. Now we know, and yes, it's not pretty.

There's more of an indictment on the guy claiming "re-building on the fly" was the way as opposed to the fans.

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07-17-2017, 01:40 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
If someone missed this two weeks ago, please LISTEN:

https://soundcloud.com/officialredwi...-the-red-wings

There's kind of everything we need to know about Kenny's plans.
This is so very disheartening to listen to.

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07-17-2017, 01:41 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by izlez View Post
Oh boy

The people who were pushing and pushing and pushing for the past 5 years for the "kids", like Tatar, Nyquist, Ouellet, Sproul, Jensen, Marchenko, Jarnkrok, Pulkinnen, Frk, Ferraro,
and Callahan to play, are claiming that they were proven right and smarter than the GM.

Yet we have those people playing now, and we are no good.


As per usual, nobody ever had an actual plan to build a winner other than "be bad"
We have been told that *everyone* knew we'd eventually be bad. So if you had chosen to be bad in 2011-12, we may already be a contender again.

Instead we have all these beautiful memories of 2012-2017 to cherish and look to be at least several years away from relevance.

Holland's fault is that between the two clear choices we had then - i.e. bet the farm or rebuild using the farm, we chose some 'middle road' which predictably lands you nowhere. It's defensive, negative management that offers no clear path toward winning.

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07-17-2017, 02:55 PM
  #83
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Only took someone in the media about 6 years to realize what we've known for some time.

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07-17-2017, 03:09 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Dotter View Post
I would imagine any team in the NHL would be in the same or worse position that Detroit is in given their long success.

And the General Manager bashing isn't exclusive for Red Wings fans, nearly all other fan bases bash their GM for whatever various reasons. It's becoming a common theme with "fans" around the league. Millennials or otherwise.

I don't follow other sports, so I don't know if this is unique to NHL or not.

At the end of the day, ownership writes the checks and is the one pulling the strings. The GM is trying to juggle all the nuisances.

If Holland leaves today, expect more of the same tomorrow (and probably worse). There is no magic button to fix the team when you have an ownership with an agenda.

EDIT: And I doubt Illitch's want to fire Ken Holland, he's the only insulation between fans focusing their displeasure towards the family. If Kenny leaves, more of the same ensues... results in fans starting to finally figure out what the true culprit is instead of this "I saw the writing on the wall since 2010", to "dang I was wrong the entire time...I was bamboozled!".

The KH bashing has become a full-on witch hunt focusing on the wrong "villain". It's like ownership is successfully hiding in plain sight.

I doubt Pittsburgh or Nashville fans are bashing their GMs! Rutherford could be elected Mayor right now in Pittsburgh. Kenny couldn't get free lamb in Greektown.

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07-17-2017, 03:26 PM
  #85
stu the grim reaper
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post

I'd love to snag someone from Nashville to be our new GM, I'd love to snag someone from Chicago or St. Louis.
that makese sense to me; i really like the team john davidson has built--eventhough they never broke through. come to think of it, they were coming off the longest playoff streak in hockey too when they started their rebuild

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07-17-2017, 03:27 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by stu the grim reaper View Post
rants about someone in sports needing to be fired are so boring and cookie-cutter

try saying something specific and postivistic instead of "not him" "not this"

if there was a hockey jim harbaugh waiting in the wings to step in and save the team, that would be one thing. But pro sports franchises are designed to boom and bust. The penguins have crosby and malkin because they were so bad, they almost left pittsburg. chicago has kane because they were managed so miserly that their games werent even on tv. if we had a new GM--a young ambitious guy with fresh eyes and a brand new will to prove himself, would he necessarily build a contender any faster than a proven insider?

I think anti-holland sentiment says more about the latent biases on this message board than anything--youth is better than experience, talent is better than know-how, the future will be better than the present, the unknown is more exciting than what we have right now

Those things can be true to a certain extent, but they're not true as articles of faith

After awhile it becomes as meaningless as complaining that your boss at work is a jerk, or that your parents are unfair, or the president is making us fall behind china
'You shouldn't complain' tripe is pretty amazing.

"I have a broken leg!" "Well wanting to get it fixed is just complaining, sometimes its better to stay with what you know, the broken leg!"

Your argument is inane. This team is a busted leg. We can complain about that. We know that this team isn't going anywhere if it stays on the current path. But, if you want to put your fingers in your ears, and rose colored glasses on an pretend everything is okay, well this is America, and for now you have the right to do it.

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07-17-2017, 03:41 PM
  #87
stu the grim reaper
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who's more stuck in the past? Ken holland who has an autographed poster of nick lidstrom in his office, or red wings fans who are angry after one year of being left out of the playoffs

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07-17-2017, 03:43 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Shaman464 View Post
'You shouldn't complain' tripe is pretty amazing.

"I have a broken leg!" "Well wanting to get it fixed is just complaining, sometimes its better to stay with what you know, the broken leg!"

Your argument is inane. This team is a busted leg. We can complain about that. We know that this team isn't going anywhere if it stays on the current path. But, if you want to put your fingers in your ears, and rose colored glasses on an pretend everything is okay, well this is America, and for now you have the right to do it.
I didnt say you shouldnt complain, i said the complaining should sound less reductive and less like hyperbole

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07-17-2017, 03:48 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by stu the grim reaper View Post
who's more stuck in the past? Ken holland who has an autographed poster of nick lidstrom in his office, or red wings fans who are angry after one year of being left out of the playoffs
The fans have been against Holland for the last like 4 years here. Now that the playoff streak is over it is only growing.

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07-17-2017, 03:56 PM
  #90
stu the grim reaper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotter View Post
I would imagine any team in the NHL would be in the same or worse position that Detroit is in given their long success.

And the General Manager bashing isn't exclusive for Red Wings fans, nearly all other fan bases bash their GM for whatever various reasons. It's becoming a common theme with "fans" around the league. Millennials or otherwise.

I don't follow other sports, so I don't know if this is unique to NHL or not.

At the end of the day, ownership writes the checks and is the one pulling the strings. The GM is trying to juggle all the nuisances.

If Holland leaves today, expect more of the same tomorrow (and probably worse). There is no magic button to fix the team when you have an ownership with an agenda.

EDIT: And I doubt Illitch's want to fire Ken Holland, he's the only insulation between fans focusing their displeasure towards the family. If Kenny leaves, more of the same ensues... results in fans starting to finally figure out what the true culprit is instead of this "I saw the writing on the wall since 2010", to "dang I was wrong the entire time...I was bamboozled!".

The KH bashing has become a full-on witch hunt focusing on the wrong "villain". It's like ownership is successfully hiding in plain sight.
I really agree with this. Mike Illitch put the tigers in an unfair position by expressing his wish that they win a championship before he dies. Dombrowski recognized that they missed their chance, and he went in to sell mode, and he got canned. Ken Holland is working in that same envoronment.

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07-17-2017, 03:58 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by jolly roger View Post
I doubt Pittsburgh or Nashville fans are bashing their GMs! Rutherford could be elected Mayor right now in Pittsburgh. Kenny couldn't get free lamb in Greektown.
I like how quickly people can jump into "See, Nashville's GM is great! Clearly that's the plan to follow!"

Nashville had been in the range of a bubble team to 1st or 2nd round knockout for years and years.

They had 1 high draft pick in those years and years...and the player they netted from that isn't exactly a superstar.

Isn't that the exact thing this board has been saying could never work??

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07-17-2017, 04:03 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by izlez View Post
I like how quickly people can jump into "See, Nashville's GM is great! Clearly that's the plan to follow!"

Nashville had been in the range of a bubble team to 1st or 2nd round knockout for years and years.

They had 1 high draft pick in those years and years...and the player they netted from that isn't exactly a superstar.

Isn't that the exact thing this board has been saying could never work??
Nine top 15 picks since 2000. Five top 10 picks since 2000.

Seth Jones is and will be a star. And they traded him for their #1 center.

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07-17-2017, 04:09 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
You don't need a specific name as a replacement to be able to say that the current GM is not doing their job properly for this hockey club. I don't need a specific name to say that this team needs a 1C or a 1D, but we need those things.

Holland has been the GM of this team for 20 years, that is an eternity in sports, especially in this era. Holland has never rebuilt a team, he took over as GM when this team was a cup contender with Hall of Fame talent. He expertly maintained this team and was fortunate to draft Datsyuk and Z with later round picks.

I'd love to snag someone from Nashville to be our new GM, I'd love to snag someone from Chicago or St. Louis.
Let's see ... 8 players from the 2002 roster were on the 2008 roster and Osgood, who was brought back. Of those 8, 3 were either drafted or brought in by Holland. So that's 5 players - Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Draper, McCarty, Maltby - he inherited that were still on the roster for the last cup and one he reacquired. He also gets full credit for drafting Datsuyk and Zetterberg. It's cute how he lucks into the good things, but is fully responsible for all the bad ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
What exactly did you get from this? It was another typical GM cliche fest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisNoodliness View Post
This is so very disheartening to listen to.
Here are a few quotes:

"In order to become an elite team, you need elite players in their prime. We're trying to do that through the draft ... At the end of the day it's a draft-pick league and you have build your foundation through the draft."
"You've got 3 or 4 players on our roster - AA, Larkin, Mantha - the three that come to mind ... it takes time. To think that you're gonna go out in free agency and sign those cornerstone foundation pieces ... I don't think they really hit the market and if they do there's 20-25 teams pursuing them, so you're hoping (you can draw them in with tradition, great fanbase, new arena). But I don't think it happens very often. It's gotta be home-grown."
"In my mind it's always ongoing, but certainly over the last couple of years when we've put young people on the team earlier."
"We've got 11 picks this draft and an extra 2nd next year, which is looking to be a deeper draft year. It's a process. We've got some real good NHL players on our team. Don't have superstars in their prime. We've got some young players who we don't know where their top end is. We gotta kind of watch as they work their way toward 23, 24, 25. You look at Zetterberg and Datsuyk's career that's when they really became Z and D. Those players who carry the torch, for the most part, they have to be home-grown."
Interviewer: "You've been telling me for years, Ken, that eventually what's going to happen in a hard-cap world that your core players will become older and retire and that's essentially what has happened to the Red Wings ... Is it possible to not bottom out and get those players the way the league is set up today?" Holland: "McDavid and Mathews are outliers. Who knows when the next one will come along ... (mentions how the draft order came out this year) If you think you're just gonna bottom out and sit and wait till a generational player comes along and you're gonna get lucky in the lottery and you're gonna get the first pick of the draft, might be 20 years, might be 10 years, it might never happen. There are good players in the draft ... they're out there. It's not an exact science. Certainly the generational players, the superstars that hit the league at 19 and 20, they're one two and three, but they're not every year. They come in sporadically. You're never sure when they'll come along. That's why most teams that are going through massive rebuilds, it's a cross section of entry drafts, it's a long period of time. And once you draft those players, you need to give them 4 or 5 years to become of age, other than the generational players. (Gives an example of the last time the Wings built through the draft it took 15 years to win and that was with less teams competing for picks.) My philosophy for the Red Wings is it's a parity league (mentions the salary cap eating away at teams' depth). We have to continue to draft. We want to compete, we want to try to make the playoffs. (Mentions Philly getting #2 pick.) You don't know. The odds are that the top (he means bottom) three teams are gonna get the top three picks, but it's just odds and you're playing odds. At the end of the day we're trying to get more draft picks and I'm gonna hang on to our draft picks. In the mean time at the NHL level we're going to try to put a team on the ice that we believe can compete ... It's tough to build something that will be better than everybody else. In the mean time, let's try to compete (one game at a time). (If you're actually competitive, who knows?)"

That was from the first 20 or so minutes. I don't want to write an even bigger wall of text, but a lot of what he said is exactly what I've been reading on here for months from people who hate his guts.


Last edited by Red Stanley: 07-17-2017 at 04:23 PM.
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07-17-2017, 04:36 PM
  #94
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That interview tells me that Holland thinks he can continue to make the playoffs and lose in the first round and while doing so find elite talent to turn the Wings into a contender. Sadly it doesn't work that way. You can't have your cake and eat it too. All you end up getting is no playoffs and no draft picks high enough that give you a realistic shot of breaking the cycle.

Props to him from changing his slogan from "Anything can happen" to "Who knows?"

Oh well, Kenny should lose his job when the Wings have to negotiate a new TV deal in a couple years and the Wings continue to ice the most expensive roster in the league while at the same time being one of the worst and most unwatchable teams in the league.


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07-17-2017, 04:48 PM
  #95
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The fans have been against Holland for the last like 4 years here. Now that the playoff streak is over it is only growing.
It's funny why, because Kenny is now rebuilding. Or has been for a while.

Drags the team down on a level of admired Maple Leafs 5 years ago, and goes towards higher picks. But that's now wrong, it would have been right 4-5 years ago. :

He has to go NOW, when he is doing the right thing. It can't be any crazier talk than that.

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07-17-2017, 04:57 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
It's funny why, because Kenny is now rebuilding. Or has been for a while.

Drags the team down on a level of admired Maple Leafs 5 years ago, and goes towards higher picks. But that's now wrong, it would have been right 4-5 years ago. :

He has to go NOW, when he is doing the right thing. It can't be any crazier talk than that.
Failing at putting together a successful team does not equal rebuilding.

What's crazy is not being able to distinguish between the two.

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07-17-2017, 05:06 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Red Stanley View Post
Let's see ... 8 players from the 2002 roster were on the 2008 roster and Osgood, who was brought back. Of those 8, 3 were either drafted or brought in by Holland. So that's 5 players - Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Draper, McCarty, Maltby - he inherited that were still on the roster for the last cup and one he reacquired. He also gets full credit for drafting Datsuyk and Zetterberg. It's cute how he lucks into the good things, but is fully responsible for all the bad ones.





Here are a few quotes:

"In order to become an elite team, you need elite players in their prime. We're trying to do that through the draft ... At the end of the day it's a draft-pick league and you have build your foundation through the draft."
"You've got 3 or 4 players on our roster - AA, Larkin, Mantha - the three that come to mind ... it takes time. To think that you're gonna go out in free agency and sign those cornerstone foundation pieces ... I don't think they really hit the market and if they do there's 20-25 teams pursuing them, so you're hoping (you can draw them in with tradition, great fanbase, new arena). But I don't think it happens very often. It's gotta be home-grown."
"In my mind it's always ongoing, but certainly over the last couple of years when we've put young people on the team earlier."
"We've got 11 picks this draft and an extra 2nd next year, which is looking to be a deeper draft year. It's a process. We've got some real good NHL players on our team. Don't have superstars in their prime. We've got some young players who we don't know where their top end is. We gotta kind of watch as they work their way toward 23, 24, 25. You look at Zetterberg and Datsuyk's career that's when they really became Z and D. Those players who carry the torch, for the most part, they have to be home-grown."
Interviewer: "You've been telling me for years, Ken, that eventually what's going to happen in a hard-cap world that your core players will become older and retire and that's essentially what has happened to the Red Wings ... Is it possible to not bottom out and get those players the way the league is set up today?" Holland: "McDavid and Mathews are outliers. Who knows when the next one will come along ... (mentions how the draft order came out this year) If you think you're just gonna bottom out and sit and wait till a generational player comes along and you're gonna get lucky in the lottery and you're gonna get the first pick of the draft, might be 20 years, might be 10 years, it might never happen. There are good players in the draft ... they're out there. It's not an exact science. Certainly the generational players, the superstars that hit the league at 19 and 20, they're one two and three, but they're not every year. They come in sporadically. You're never sure when they'll come along. That's why most teams that are going through massive rebuilds, it's a cross section of entry drafts, it's a long period of time. And once you draft those players, you need to give them 4 or 5 years to become of age, other than the generational players. (Gives an example of the last time the Wings built through the draft it took 15 years to win and that was with less teams competing for picks.) My philosophy for the Red Wings is it's a parity league (mentions the salary cap eating away at teams' depth). We have to continue to draft. We want to compete, we want to try to make the playoffs. (Mentions Philly getting #2 pick.) You don't know. The odds are that the top (he means bottom) three teams are gonna get the top three picks, but it's just odds and you're playing odds. At the end of the day we're trying to get more draft picks and I'm gonna hang on to our draft picks. In the mean time at the NHL level we're going to try to put a team on the ice that we believe can compete ... It's tough to build something that will be better than everybody else. In the mean time, let's try to compete (one game at a time). (If you're actually competitive, who knows?)"

That was from the first 20 or so minutes. I don't want to write an even bigger wall of text, but a lot of what he said is exactly what I've been reading on here for months from people who hate his guts.

No, it's not. What you are seeing is exactly why people hate his guts: He thinks he can both be mediocre and get lucky enough to land top players while doing it.

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Old
07-17-2017, 05:17 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Yzerman would've been fired twice with his Tampa track record if he was GM of a 'bigger' team (ie Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal, LA, NYR, Philly, etc).

First in either 2011-12 after Tampa were arguably the pre-season cup favourites and missed the playoffs in arguably the worst division, or in 2012-13 when they got even worse.

Second at the end of this season, where they were once again arguably pre-season cup favourites, or at least Eastern Conference favourites and missed the playoffs in arguably the worst division.

I mean, fine, argue that Yzerman is a better GM right now than Holland if you want, but replacing mediocre with a different kind of mediocre is just silly.
Congrats we have a Wings fanboy here who does not watch other teams.

You honestly think that Yzerman would have been fired after this past season because Tampa a cup contender didn't make the playoffs?

Here's a little news flasg for you Tampa was riddled with injuries this season to key contributors. Stamkos their best player played in only 17 games. Johnson played in 66. Even Kucherov, Hedman and Palat all missed games with injuries.

Despite all of the injuries and a very average year from Ben Bishop and trading several players at the deadline they missed the playoffs by 1 point.

If you think Yzerman should have been fired for that you should stop watching hockey immediately and go watch the loser lions play.

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07-17-2017, 05:19 PM
  #99
Red Stanley
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Originally Posted by Shaman464 View Post
No, it's not. What you are seeing is exactly why people hate his guts: He thinks he can both be mediocre and get lucky enough to land top players while doing it.
Yeah, it is, almost word-for-word, in fact.

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07-17-2017, 05:31 PM
  #100
StargateSG1
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
It's funny why, because Kenny is now rebuilding. Or has been for a while.

Drags the team down on a level of admired Maple Leafs 5 years ago, and goes towards higher picks. But that's now wrong, it would have been right 4-5 years ago. :

He has to go NOW, when he is doing the right thing. It can't be any crazier talk than that.
Yeah, he is "rebuilding", for sure..

Red Wings believe pieces in place for return to playoffs


https://www.nhl.com/news/detroit-red...is/c-290400222

When your team's GM cannot tell the difference between the playoff team and the lottery team, he needs to go.

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