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Game of Thrones | Season 7 | (NO BOOK DISCUSSION - NO SPOILERS!) ‎

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Old
07-17-2017, 04:45 PM
  #876
ThePhoenixx
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He's not being kind, he's being just. It's not a 12 year old girl or 6 year old boys fault for what their family did. He also needs their people and keeping the houses intact is the best way to ensure that happens.
So you are of the camp that Jon is stupid and thinks he can stop them at the wall?

He even mentioned how those two castles will be the next to feel the brunt. Nobody believed him which is why they all wanted to give them to his "supporters".

It is why he gave his sister that look on the walkway when she said he was good at this stuff.

Kings have to make some tough decisions. Sentencing those kids to death was one of them. There are people pulling those kids strings behind the scenes. Jon knows they are the same ones who betrayed him.

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07-17-2017, 04:51 PM
  #877
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So you are of the camp that Jon is stupid and thinks he can stop them at the wall?

He even mentioned how those two castles will be the next to feel the brunt. Nobody believed him which is why they all wanted to give them to his "supporters".

It is why he gave his sister that look on the walkway when she said he was good at this stuff.

Kings have to make some tough decisions. Sentencing those kids to death was one of them. There are people pulling those kids strings behind the scenes. Jon knows they are the same ones who betrayed him.
I think you're seeing something that isn't there. Leaving the Umbers and Karstarks in place is the strategically sound decision.

Here's a quote from Tywin Lannister:

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."

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07-17-2017, 05:05 PM
  #878
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I think you're seeing something that isn't there. Leaving the Umbers and Karstarks in place is the strategically sound decision.

Here's a quote from Tywin Lannister:

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."
Great post and quote. Jon isn't stupid at all. He does need those castles if the night king gets past the wall, but he also sees the value in keeping those houses intact. Jon isn't Stannis and has never been shown to be like him, he won't casually throw people to their death like ThePhoenixx is suggesting. He's accepting that people will die under him, but he wants to make sure it's for the right reasons and that the deaths are worth it. He's ensuring the loyalty of the people loyal to the Umbers and Karstarks by keeping their family in place, he isn't casually accepting that they will die. Sansa wants him to award those castles to others as a reward for good service.

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07-17-2017, 05:22 PM
  #879
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Great post and quote. Jon isn't stupid at all. He does need those castles if the night king gets past the wall, but he also sees the value in keeping those houses intact. Jon isn't Stannis and has never been shown to be like him, he won't casually throw people to their death like ThePhoenixx is suggesting. He's accepting that people will die under him, but he wants to make sure it's for the right reasons and that the deaths are worth it. He's ensuring the loyalty of the people loyal to the Umbers and Karstarks by keeping their family in place, he isn't casually accepting that they will die. Sansa wants him to award those castles to others as a reward for good service.
I know it's akin to attacking a saint, but those two are just minor pawns that Jon is sacrificing.

Or he could be kind of a nice dumb guy as you are suggesting. He does do some very stupid rash things sometimes. Doesn't change the fact that those two castles are toast. whether Jon doesn't want to look in the mirror and admit that he is sending them to their deaths is another way of looking at his character I guess.

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07-17-2017, 05:23 PM
  #880
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I liked it. It felt just as cold and grey and sluggish (in a good way) as when you slowly freeze to death, rather like Westeros is. For a show that's been accused of too much T&A and misogyny it's interesting that two of the three remaining pretenders to the throne are women (I don't count Euron since he wants to be king through marrying Cersei). Of the three, Jon has absolutely no interest in the Iron Throne.

If Cersei wasn't insane what she should have done of course is send an offer of marriage to Jon (it even has a real War of the Roses parallel when the Kingmaker married his youngest daughter off to the son of the king who executed his father and uncle and cousin) to consolidate their power. Btw, is Jamie still a King(Queen) guard? If not he's the lord of Casterly Rock and should marry, if not, Tyrion is, which should plase Cersei

Wonder what will happen now if/when Bran returns. He has the best claim to King of the North but I doubt that the northern lords will follow a paralyzed young man who can never lead them in battle or sire heirs. And he is the only one, besides Howland Reed, who knows that R+L=J Of course, since Sansa is no longer a Stark officially (but a Bolton) according to feudal laws, Arya has the second best claim. Talking of Sansa, as the heir to Ramsay she is now Lady of Dreadfort, since, according to GoT wiki House Bolton is extinct, So the second most powerful house in the North is now in Stark hands. Wonder if that will be at all addressed in the show. Sansa can, theoretically at least, call upon all of Bolton's bannermen as their rightful lady. Oh and Sansa is Jon's most powerful bannerman and should bend the knee to him as such.

With all the Freys dead, who will inherit? Does this mean a return of the Tullys and that Edmure Tully is released? Hmm... Many questions and I'm looking forward to it unfolding.


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Old
07-17-2017, 05:29 PM
  #881
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Or maybe the Ironborn had that large of an armada?
Euron returned from his travels with more than one ship to begin with did he not?
And Dany needed enough ships to carry the Dothraki, the Unsullied and her dragons. I feel like in terms of quantity of fighters she may have the largest standing army at this point?
Meh, like I posted last night the biggest issue for me is how did Euron/The Ironborn find all these people (again) to crew a thousand ships? Their islands, tiny to begin with and probably not smothered in people, put up a rebellion 10-12 years ago and were crushed. Presumably a good chunk of the male (and female) fighting/sailing population died during that.

Then 3 years ago Theon's father starts another campaign, invades the north, and ultimately other than a few stragglers all the Ironborn get wiped out by the Boltons.

Then, Theon and his sister take "the best" ships in the fleet, and sail off to join Dany.

Where the heck are all the sailors/manpower coming from to crew a brand new fleet of 1,000 ships? Thinking a crew of 20 per ship, that's another 20k fighting personnel...from tiny islands that have been decimated twice by war in 15 years. Are they cloning soldiers and sailors? This is getting stupid.

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07-17-2017, 05:30 PM
  #882
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I know it's akin to attacking a saint, but those two are just minor pawns that Jon is sacrificing.

Or he could be kind of a nice dumb guy as you are suggesting. He does do some very stupid rash things sometimes. Doesn't change the fact that those two castles are toast. whether Jon doesn't want to look in the mirror and admit that he is sending them to their deaths is another way of looking at his character I guess.
It's not just 'those two', it's everyone left from their houses, any fighting men left that were loyal to them, all their servants, all their people in total. The same type of people that were still loyal to the Starks when the Boltons were in power and begrudge the current regime. Jon needs a unified front and the only way to ensure that is to keep those houses alive in their lands. Add to that his unwillingness to punish the children for the sins of the fathers.

I'm not sure where you are getting this stuff that the castles are toast, because that isn't what was said in the episode. Jon's plan is to man the wall with as many people as possible, but layer his defenses. The next line of defense are the Umber and Karstarks castles. There is no plan for them to be overrun, but if the wall is breached they will fall back to those castles. He can't afford to dispossess the people from the castles and man it with people he needs elsewhere.

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07-17-2017, 05:36 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
I know it's akin to attacking a saint, but those two are just minor pawns that Jon is sacrificing.

Or he could be kind of a nice dumb guy as you are suggesting. He does do some very stupid rash things sometimes. Doesn't change the fact that those two castles are toast. whether Jon doesn't want to look in the mirror and admit that he is sending them to their deaths is another way of looking at his character I guess.
He's not sacrificing anyone. Taking the Umbers and Karstarks out of their castles would be nothing short of stupid. No one is going to know their home as well as they do. That means no one will be better able to defend their castles than them. That alone would be the smartest strategic decision.

In addition to that, any kind of social upheaval in the north when all attention and resources should be focused on the White Walkers would run counterproductive to what Jon needs to accomplish.

Jon might not be a brilliant strategist or politician, but he's not stupid enough to be vindictive in their current situation.

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07-17-2017, 05:39 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
I know it's akin to attacking a saint, but those two are just minor pawns that Jon is sacrificing.

Or he could be kind of a nice dumb guy as you are suggesting. He does do some very stupid rash things sometimes. Doesn't change the fact that those two castles are toast. whether Jon doesn't want to look in the mirror and admit that he is sending them to their deaths is another way of looking at his character I guess.
Nobody knows when, where, or how the whitewalkers are going to hit. A regular army would be following roads so would likely need to hit the castles in order, but the whitewalkers and their army can go full guerilla here and show up basically anywhere. There's also no use using sacrificial pawns here because the enemy will just raise the dead and become stronger for it.

The North can't just fit everyone in Winterfell, so I'd suspect the current strategy would be for everyone to hunker down in and defend their local castle while Jon tries to figure out the dragon glass thing.

As for the Umbers and Karstarks, there's also a very sensible reason for keeping the status quo. It's not just the noble families living in the castles, there will also be generations of 'small folk' who populate the land and keep things running and have always served the Umbers/Karstarks. Probably not the best time right now to rock the boat and bring in a completely new outsider family to rule.

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07-17-2017, 05:40 PM
  #885
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Also the prisoner with the dragon hands... good catch there, until reading the last few posts I didn't even think twice about who that was.

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07-17-2017, 05:44 PM
  #886
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I think the contingency plan is being mistaken for the plan. The plan is to train everyone of fighting age to man the wall and other defenses. The castles are fall back positions, not the first line of defense. Jon isn't planning on the wall being breached, he's trying to plan for the case that it does. The main plan is to use the 700' ice wall to defend the realm. Abandoning that to only defend Winterfell would be stupid.

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07-17-2017, 05:47 PM
  #887
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It's not just 'those two', it's everyone left from their houses, any fighting men left that were loyal to them, all their servants, all their people in total. The same type of people that were still loyal to the Starks when the Boltons were in power and begrudge the current regime. Jon needs a unified front and the only way to ensure that is to keep those houses alive in their lands. Add to that his unwillingness to punish the children for the sins of the fathers.

I'm not sure where you are getting this stuff that the castles are toast, because that isn't what was said in the episode. Jon's plan is to man the wall with as many people as possible, but layer his defenses. The next line of defense are the Umber and Karstarks castles. There is no plan for them to be overrun, but if the wall is breached they will fall back to those castles. He can't afford to dispossess the people from the castles and man it with people he needs elsewhere.
I never said it wasn't a good decision. He just knows their dead. The wall won't stop the WW. A fact that is lost on everyone else in the room. They ( the traitors) can fight and die just as well, might as well be them than those who supported him. It's like throwing the foreigners in your army out as fodder.

The white walkers will get a lot farther than even castle stark (winterfell).

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07-17-2017, 05:49 PM
  #888
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So, the internet noticed this:


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07-17-2017, 05:52 PM
  #889
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Jon and Sansa are both right, but they're focused on different things. Sansa is focused on the politics and playing the game of thrones. Jon is focused on the bigger threat that is the WW. I tend to side more with Jon in that I don't think Cersei has the manpower to truly threaten the North. They're barely hanging on in the South, much less would be able to arm and feed an army to deal with Jon. Plus they're going to have more immediate threats with Dany being at Dragonstone. The only real threat would be if Euron decided to go North, but I think he's going to be more focused on trying to defeat Dany, or capture Tyrion or Ellaria as a "gift" to Cersei.

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07-17-2017, 05:56 PM
  #890
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So, the internet noticed this:

What am i missing?

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07-17-2017, 05:57 PM
  #891
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So, the internet noticed this:

margaery tyrell rocked similar hairstyles too. prob just a standard lady doo in westeros.

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07-17-2017, 06:08 PM
  #892
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margaery tyrell rocked similar hairstyles too. prob just a standard lady doo in westeros.
There was a recent article that specifically mentioned Sansa's doo's have a meaning.

http://www.refinery29.com/2017/06/16...s-hair-secrets

Edit: had the wrong link.

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07-17-2017, 06:12 PM
  #893
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Nobody knows when, where, or how the whitewalkers are going to hit. A regular army would be following roads so would likely need to hit the castles in order, but the whitewalkers and their army can go full guerilla here and show up basically anywhere. There's also no use using sacrificial pawns here because the enemy will just raise the dead and become stronger for it.

The North can't just fit everyone in Winterfell, so I'd suspect the current strategy would be for everyone to hunker down in and defend their local castle while Jon tries to figure out the dragon glass thing.

As for the Umbers and Karstarks, there's also a very sensible reason for keeping the status quo. It's not just the noble families living in the castles, there will also be generations of 'small folk' who populate the land and keep things running and have always served the Umbers/Karstarks. Probably not the best time right now to rock the boat and bring in a completely new outsider family to rule.
As I mentioned to another, it was a good decision military wise as well.

The peasants will have time to run.

Jon needs a delaying action, not a win action. He knows that, the others don't, hence the "what, train women and kids?"

He needs time to train every woman, man and child and to evacuate them south (something his sister unwittingly helped with immensely with her killing spree.), while enacting a rear guard. Only when terror spreads will people consider leaving their homes.

He knows his enemy will replenish its rankings, most likely even grow. There really is nothing he can do about it but delay them and hope/wait for help from the South. What's going to be left in the South after they maul each other?

Those giants look like rock throwing dragon killers to me.

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07-17-2017, 06:37 PM
  #894
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What am i missing?
Sansa rocking Cersei's hairstyle. During the scene in which she says she learned a lot from Cersei.

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07-17-2017, 06:40 PM
  #895
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Also the prisoner with the dragon hands... good catch there, until reading the last few posts I didn't even think twice about who that was.
I knew right away, the voice gave it away. I was pumped!


Not a bad first episode, great storytelling here. Glad GOT is finally back

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07-17-2017, 07:12 PM
  #896
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With Tim McInnerny still around, why not bring in the whole Blackadder gang as Northern lords.

"I took my army to Pentos to guard your rear in case the Wights decide to fool us by marching around the world."

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07-17-2017, 07:12 PM
  #897
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Sansa rocking Cersei's hairstyle. During the scene in which she says she learned a lot from Cersei.
She did the same back in season 1.

The whole argument they had about was really meh and overly dramatic, but I guess I can understand both rationales. Still, Jon saying he won't take their castles - when legally, he is a Snow who has taken a Stark castle - and having a grand speech about preparing for the Others while giving key fortifications to children still seems off to me.

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07-17-2017, 07:18 PM
  #898
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She did the same back in season 1.

The whole argument they had about was really meh and overly dramatic, but I guess I can understand both rationales. Still, Jon saying he won't take their castles - when legally, he is a Snow who has taken a Stark castle - and having a grand speech about preparing for the Others while giving key fortifications to children still seems off to me.
...and to defeat the worst ever threat to the world with an army of hastily trained men, women and children? Ya, that's going well. Disneyland well.

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07-17-2017, 07:44 PM
  #899
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I never said it wasn't a good decision. He just knows their dead. The wall won't stop the WW. A fact that is lost on everyone else in the room. They ( the traitors) can fight and die just as well, might as well be them than those who supported him. It's like throwing the foreigners in your army out as fodder.

The white walkers will get a lot farther than even castle stark (winterfell).
As I said earlier, I don't see where you are getting this supposed plan to abandon the greatest fortification in Westeros in favor of a long, punishing retreat south in the middle of winter. The wall might not stop the white walkers, but no one knows that. The plan has been for a 1000 years to use the wall to defend against the, but somehow you gathered from that scene last night that Jon's plan is to give up on it, sacrifice the entire north, and retreat south for help?


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07-17-2017, 08:00 PM
  #900
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As I said earlier, I don't see where you are getting this supposed plan to abandon the greatest fortification in Westeros in favor of a long, punishing retreat south in the middle of winter. The wall might not stop the white walkers, but no one ones that. The plan has been for a 1000 years to use the wall to defend against the, but somehow you gathered from that scene last night that Jon's plan is to give up on it, sacrifice the entire north, and retreat south for help?
Not just from that scene.

In the battle of the ******** that was essentially the whole entire Northern army. Not much left. The WW army is at least ten times that size, probably larger...with super beings.

Does Jon really believe that children are going to stand up to that? Peasants with pitch forks?

Jon sent the survivors of the wildlings massacre to defend the castle. He witnessed the ease of that massacre so he sends the few survivors!

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