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Hall of Fame talent, non-Hall of Fame situation?

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Old
07-13-2017, 04:22 PM
  #26
Weissy Baby
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
With all due respect, I don't think any of those players belong close to this thread even with that disclaimer. No hockey sense players like Yakupov and Nurse would never flourish anywhere...
You're probably right, after re-reading my post I'm not sure why I added Yakupov and Nurse. From everything I hear about Yakupov it just seems like it was inevitable he would be a bust. Maybe I just got a little too caught up in the hype surrounding Nurse, Eberle (especially after the World Juniors), and RNH. I still think Hall and Duchene would be relevant for this list though if they didn't have to be "the guy" right away and were placed in a situation where they were able to learn from better veteran players, having some semblance of a defence and a quality goaltender would probably help too. I still think Hall would be up there on the Seguin and Benn level if he didn't have the injury problems as well.

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07-13-2017, 04:23 PM
  #27
AlwaysSunnyInTampa
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Immediately the modern day examples I thought of were Alex Kovalev and Nick Zherdev. Both were such outstanding talents but total mysteries.

Also Vinny Lecavalier without question had HHOF talent but between injuries and just never putting it together I feel warrants comment within this thread

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07-13-2017, 11:55 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by AlwaysSunnyInTampa View Post
Also Vinny Lecavalier without question had HHOF talent but between injuries and just never putting it together I feel warrants comment within this thread
He's an interesting one. His career arc is very severe:

1998-2002 = disappointing young plugger (approaching "bust" territory c. 2001-02)
2002-2004 = rising star; 2004 Stanley Cup
Sept.2004-2008 = World Cup MVP + three great seasons (2 in a row at superstar level)
2008-2013 = past-prime post-Tortorella Lightning
2013-2016 = disappointing old plugger


His career encapsulates everything from scrub to elite All-Star.

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Old
07-14-2017, 03:36 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
that assumes that tone- and culture-setting players don't make a difference. jonathan toews has not only won at every level, but he has been a leader on those winning teams. as a teenager he was named captain of a team that had duncan keith, pat kane, and brent seabrook on it. they had accomplished veterans like patrick sharp, brian campbell, and martin havlat. there has to be a reason for that.

and it was the right choice, obviously. that team of course went on to win three stanley cups.

it's ridiculous to think you can just stick some other talented player in jonathan toews' place and get jonathan toews results.

and man, i hate having to defend jonathan toews.
I do kind of agree that you cant just put any talent and replace Toews still get the same results. But there is a strong argument for that A lot of people think that is because if Toews doesn't perform a lot times Hawks still win. 2010 finals 3 A and -5. Offense and defense he wasn't great. 2013 first 20 game he was great defensively and just had 1 goal Hawks still made it to the finals. In most cases if your number 1 center perform how Toews did in those examples you don't win the cup.

The culture difference if you replace someone else? Well 10 14 15 for the most part of playoff Toews was great and the team played well because those Hawks teams were stacked. 10 11 16 17 Toews wasn't that great in the playoffs and his team as well because the team were lacking depth. So it's Still Toews providing the leadership. This proves if Toews doesn't have a stacked team his leadership is nothing special. His leadership only work ls when he is on a stacked team. Those are the reason why I think if you 'replace Toews with half of the teams number 1 center you still get about the same results.

You need to defend Toews because a lot of people think he is overrated. So question

Toews is pretty much a lock to be in the hhof
If he was drafted on another team let's say on the Flyers or Islanders. Would he still be in the hhof?


Last edited by Canucks1096: 07-14-2017 at 03:44 AM.
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Old
07-14-2017, 09:47 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Canucks1096 View Post
I do kind of agree that you cant just put any talent and replace Toews still get the same results. But there is a strong argument for that A lot of people think that is because if Toews doesn't perform a lot times Hawks still win. 2010 finals 3 A and -5. Offense and defense he wasn't great. 2013 first 20 game he was great defensively and just had 1 goal Hawks still made it to the finals. In most cases if your number 1 center perform how Toews did in those examples you don't win the cup.

The culture difference if you replace someone else? Well 10 14 15 for the most part of playoff Toews was great and the team played well because those Hawks teams were stacked. 10 11 16 17 Toews wasn't that great in the playoffs and his team as well because the team were lacking depth. So it's Still Toews providing the leadership. This proves if Toews doesn't have a stacked team his leadership is nothing special. His leadership only work ls when he is on a stacked team. Those are the reason why I think if you 'replace Toews with half of the teams number 1 center you still get about the same results.

You need to defend Toews because a lot of people think he is overrated. So question

Toews is pretty much a lock to be in the hhof
If he was drafted on another team let's say on the Flyers or Islanders. Would he still be in the hhof?
The conundrum with this is -- Toews is one of the reasons why his team is (or was, at the very least) stacked.

I'm not sure he'd have the same success with the Flyers (well, Toews in basically means Giroux out, so Toews isn't subbing a guy who is markedly inferior to him), but the Islanders might've had quite a bit more success than they did, despite a good pick on Toews' draft year (Kyle Okposo).

Suppose Drew Doughty is actually a LD, and ends subbing Duncan Keith on those Hawks team. Is there a huge difference? Probably not -- there would be differences on a year-to-year perspective, but it's close enough in the grand scheme of things starting from 2010. Does that make Duncan Keith a non-core/key member of the Hawks?


Last edited by MXD: 07-14-2017 at 09:54 AM.
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Old
07-14-2017, 09:50 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
He's an interesting one. His career arc is very severe:

1998-2002 = disappointing young plugger (approaching "bust" territory c. 2001-02)
2002-2004 = rising star; 2004 Stanley Cup
Sept.2004-2008 = World Cup MVP + three great seasons (2 in a row at superstar level)
2008-2013 = past-prime post-Tortorella Lightning
2013-2016 = disappointing old plugger


His career encapsulates everything from scrub to elite All-Star.
It really does. It was not helped by the fact that when the Lightning were sold in 2007 to the clown show known as OK Hockey, the entire organization fell apart from top to bottom in less than a year. Then Vinny essentially played for a bottom feeder for the rest of his Lightning career with the exception of Yzerman piecing together an average team out of duct tape and super glue and had unreal playoff luck all the way to the 2010 ECF.

The bigger dysfunction than OK Hockey is what a mess the Avalanche have become

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Old
07-14-2017, 11:18 AM
  #32
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There will be a lot of them IMO in the future with a 31 team league. Although these guys still have a ways to go in their career, players like Backstrom, Tarasenko, Tavares, Giroux, Parise and Weber could fit the bill. It's conceivable that all of those guys finish their careers with no major individual trophies or Cups and miss out on the HHOF despite having great primes and consistently being in the upper echelon of players. Stamkos, Benn, Subban have some hardware but could also not have enough team success by the end of their career to make it. Now trade anyone in this post with Jonathan Toews in 2009 and they're probably on track to be first ballot.
Bäckström has laid several mysterious eggs in the playoffs whereas Toews has had both individual clutch and productive moments in the post season. Bäckström has outscored Toews in the regular season but in the playoffs it's the opposite. If you watch them both play you know it's not by accident.

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Old
07-14-2017, 01:03 PM
  #33
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Tomas Vokoun was an elite, elite goalie for a decade, but languished on mostly terrible Predators and Panthers teams. The closest he got to recognition was a 4th place Vezina finish. I really think that on a stronger team he would be a borderline HHOF case.
He also had a few top 10 finishes for Hart if I recall correctly.

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Old
07-14-2017, 03:17 PM
  #34
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Kyle welwood

Maybe not hhof material but he had a lot of talent but too lazy.

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Old
07-14-2017, 04:36 PM
  #35
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Tremblay would be in already if the committee valued WHA careers whatsoever
Tremblay should absolutely be in the HHOF. He had pretty much a HHOF career just with the Habs and then becomes literally the best WHA defenceman and a legend for the Nordiques who become an NHL team.

Tremblay was one of the best offensive D of his era. Had Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs as a key player on a dynasty team. Is the best defenceman for an entire league's history. Has a 20 year career when that was pretty rare.

Tremblay is being robbed of the HHOF because the Hall is still punishing WHA players. It took so long for Mark Howe to get in.

The positive thing is that Vachon got in after all these years so Tremblay being elected seems more probable.

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07-14-2017, 09:04 PM
  #36
reckoning
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Tremblay is being robbed of the HHOF because the Hall is still punishing WHA players. It took so long for Mark Howe to get in.

The positive thing is that Vachon got in after all these years so Tremblay being elected seems more probable.
The WHA connection was definitely a factor back in the 70s and 80s, but I'm not sure it matters anymore. I can't think of anyone on the current selection committee who would have a reason to be anti-WHA, most of the old boys executive club have moved on.

Due to the Hall's secrecy, we don't even know if Tremblay has been up for a vote. It could be they've forgotten about him. Maybe nobody there has taken the effort to make a case for him.

I wonder if the fact that Tremblay passed away many years ago makes his induction less likely. The only posthumous inductions I can think of over the last 10-15 years were Kharlamov and Burns.

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07-14-2017, 09:44 PM
  #37
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Posthumus

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The WHA connection was definitely a factor back in the 70s and 80s, but I'm not sure it matters anymore. I can't think of anyone on the current selection committee who would have a reason to be anti-WHA, most of the old boys executive club have moved on.

Due to the Hall's secrecy, we don't even know if Tremblay has been up for a vote. It could be they've forgotten about him. Maybe nobody there has taken the effort to make a case for him.

I wonder if the fact that Tremblay passed away many years ago makes his induction less likely. The only posthumous inductions I can think of over the last 10-15 years were Kharlamov and Burns.
Last posthumus player induction was Roy Connacher, passed away 1984 inducted 1999.Coaches Fred Shero and Herb Brooks were fairly recenT posthumus inductions.

Case for J.C. Tremblay would be rater tenuous.

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Old
07-14-2017, 09:47 PM
  #38
kmad
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Tremblay should absolutely be in the HHOF. He had pretty much a HHOF career just with the Habs and then becomes literally the best WHA defenceman and a legend for the Nordiques who become an NHL team.

Tremblay was one of the best offensive D of his era. Had Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs as a key player on a dynasty team. Is the best defenceman for an entire league's history. Has a 20 year career when that was pretty rare.

Tremblay is being robbed of the HHOF because the Hall is still punishing WHA players. It took so long for Mark Howe to get in.

The positive thing is that Vachon got in after all these years so Tremblay being elected seems more probable.
I was always under the impression that Howe took this long due to the lack of Norris trophies. But you're probably right.

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Old
07-15-2017, 07:21 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Last posthumus player induction was Roy Connacher, passed away 1984 inducted 1999.Coaches Fred Shero and Herb Brooks were fairly recenT posthumus inductions.

Case for J.C. Tremblay would be rater tenuous.
As mentioned upthread, Kharlamov in 2005 is more recent.

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07-16-2017, 01:38 PM
  #40
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Mats Sundin's best teammates were the likes of Tomas Kaberle, Gary Roberts, Darcy Tucker...

He was so good and a first ballot HOF'er anyways.

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07-16-2017, 02:04 PM
  #41
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Owen Nolan

Imagine what his career would've looked like had he played the majority of it in Colorado alongside Forsberg

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07-16-2017, 06:57 PM
  #42
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Bäckström has laid several mysterious eggs in the playoffs whereas Toews has had both individual clutch and productive moments in the post season. Bäckström has outscored Toews in the regular season but in the playoffs it's the opposite. If you watch them both play you know it's not by accident.
Certainly don't disagree with that; Toews is firmly a HHOFer and Backstrom is not. But it's definitely a case where you have to wonder if that would have held true if they swapped teams.

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07-16-2017, 07:58 PM
  #43
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Taylor Hall

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07-16-2017, 08:10 PM
  #44
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Taylor Hall
I don't see that. I know the narrative for Hall-supporters is that the Oilers ruined him, but he did have two seasons in Edmonton in the top-10 in scoring, as well as lots of ice-time and support. He didn't exactly set the world on fire last year in New Jersey, either. (Not to mention coach/dressing-room issues that are rumored with him.) His hockey IQ just isn't that high. I don't think Hall was made for the Hall.

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07-16-2017, 10:12 PM
  #45
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pavel bure was very close to belonging on this thread. if he'd been nurtured in vancouver, if they'd kept larionov around to mentor him, if management hadn't kept antagonizing him, we could have seen a happier and perhaps more productive bure post-'94.

he made the HHOf anyway obviously, but he had to wait a lot longer and it was a much closer call than it should have been.
Well the knee injury, but yeah

Kovalev wins this thread if he never makes it. Easily the most talented player of all time to have a chance at missing the hall. Better puck handler than any player that is in the hall, and I do mean any.

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07-17-2017, 07:36 AM
  #46
the edler
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I don't think Hall was made for the Hall.

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07-17-2017, 04:36 PM
  #47
Ralph Spoilsport
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There's a story--probably apocryphal--that Jack Adams swore that Flash Hollett would never make the HOF if he walked away from the NHL instead of accepting the contract Adams was offering. Hollett retired from the NHL and played Senior Amateur. Still not in the Hall. The Red Wings won a Cup in 1950, same year Hollett won an Allan Cup with the Toronto Marlboros.

(Let's pause for a second and consider this: an NHL all-star decided he'd be better off playing amateur hockey rather than pursuing his career in the NHL. Makes me wonder just how "amateur" Sr. A. was and how "major league" the NHL was. Beliveau, Laprade and Durnan are just three HOFers who come to mind who initially turned down NHL offers in order to play Sr. A. I think the two levels were much closer than I'd assumed. But I digress.)

I find the story a little hard to believe since the HOF was only established a couple of years before. The standards must have been pretty high. Eddie Shore hadn't even been inducted. On the other hand Hollett was the all-time leading scorer among defencemen, so maybe he was considered legit HOF material.

Speaking of Adams…Fred Glover was a Red Wings prospect who had HOF potential but didn't get along with Adams. He actually requested a trade. Who the hell asked to be traded in the O6 era? May as well have just said "please sir, I'd like to spend the rest of my career in the minors." Which is where Glover ended up, playing in Cleveland (with an NHL salary)...5 AHL championships, 3 MVP awards, two scoring titles, retired as the all-time AHL leader in everything: games, goals, assists, points (obviously) and PIM.

So there's a non-HOF situation…pissing off Jack Adams.


Last edited by Ralph Spoilsport: 07-17-2017 at 04:38 PM. Reason: spellling
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07-17-2017, 05:17 PM
  #48
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Nedved if he wasn't such a damn weirdo

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07-17-2017, 06:24 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Ralph Spoilsport View Post
There's a story--probably apocryphal--that Jack Adams swore that Flash Hollett would never make the HOF if he walked away from the NHL instead of accepting the contract Adams was offering. Hollett retired from the NHL and played Senior Amateur. Still not in the Hall. The Red Wings won a Cup in 1950, same year Hollett won an Allan Cup with the Toronto Marlboros.

(Let's pause for a second and consider this: an NHL all-star decided he'd be better off playing amateur hockey rather than pursuing his career in the NHL. Makes me wonder just how "amateur" Sr. A. was and how "major league" the NHL was. Beliveau, Laprade and Durnan are just three HOFers who come to mind who initially turned down NHL offers in order to play Sr. A. I think the two levels were much closer than I'd assumed. But I digress.)

I find the story a little hard to believe since the HOF was only established a couple of years before. The standards must have been pretty high. Eddie Shore hadn't even been inducted. On the other hand Hollett was the all-time leading scorer among defencemen, so maybe he was considered legit HOF material.

Speaking of Adams…Fred Glover was a Red Wings prospect who had HOF potential but didn't get along with Adams. He actually requested a trade. Who the hell asked to be traded in the O6 era? May as well have just said "please sir, I'd like to spend the rest of my career in the minors." Which is where Glover ended up, playing in Cleveland (with an NHL salary)...5 AHL championships, 3 MVP awards, two scoring titles, retired as the all-time AHL leader in everything: games, goals, assists, points (obviously) and PIM.

So there's a non-HOF situation…pissing off Jack Adams.
Very interesting player; checkout the profile in the link Ive provided and scroll down a bit to the comments section, one of the posters,
guy named Derek has obviously done a considerable amount of research on Flash Hollett which I think you'll find rather illuminating, edifying.....

http://www.bruinslegends.blogspot.ca...h-hollett.html


Last edited by Killion: 07-17-2017 at 06:29 PM.
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Old
07-17-2017, 07:15 PM
  #50
Canadiens1958
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Flash Hollett

^^^Great job by Derek. Must read.

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