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Karlsson vs Coffey

View Poll Results: Who is/was the better all around defenseman?
Karlsson AINEC 30 17.65%
Karlsson but close 69 40.59%
Coffey but close 39 22.94%
Coffey AINEC 32 18.82%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-17-2017, 08:04 AM
  #26
ChiefWiggum
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You have to give it to Karlsson for two reasons

1) He is currently a better defensive player than Coffey was, even if he uses an unorthodox style

2) Karlsson played on a much weaker team while Coffey (to exaggerate the fact) was riding on Messier and Gretzky's coat tails

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07-17-2017, 09:10 AM
  #27
NyQuil
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It's a tough call.

Both guys were products of their eras.

I can't imagine Coffey not being more well-rounded were he to have developed in this era.

Just as I think Karlsson would have had some pretty eye-popping offensive totals in the 80s with Edmonton and/or Pittsburgh.

Really good comparison, I can see arguments for both.

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Old
07-17-2017, 09:12 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Lmao this poll, are you serious? Coffey ANIEFC.
This.
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As another younger poster, I'd recommend you educate yourself on potvin
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07-17-2017, 09:30 AM
  #29
ChiefWiggum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It's a tough call.

Both guys were products of their eras.

I can't imagine Coffey not being more well-rounded were he to have developed in this era.

Just as I think Karlsson would have had some pretty eye-popping offensive totals in the 80s with Edmonton and/or Pittsburgh.

Really good comparison, I can see arguments for both.
Karlsson on the 80s Oilers would be a point scoring machine

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07-17-2017, 12:40 PM
  #30
silkyjohnson50
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I think it's easy to undervalue Coffey's offensive ability due to playing with 99 and 66 during his prime. But to put it into perspective, during the shortened 94-95 season he led Detroit in scoring by a fair margin. He outscored Fedorov in between his peak seasons and Yzerman. And Coffey wasn't in his peak during that time.

He was a dominant offensive talent.

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07-17-2017, 12:43 PM
  #31
ManofSteel55
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I voted Karlsson AINEC. Coffey was really not good defensively until quite late into his career - and even then he wasn't so much good as he was not awful. Karlsson's defensive ability has grown tremendously.

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07-17-2017, 01:23 PM
  #32
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Coffey is the better version of Karlsson.

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07-17-2017, 01:29 PM
  #33
maaran
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Karlsson but I do think that Coffey is top 8-9ish defender of all time, but karlsson is better.

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07-17-2017, 01:49 PM
  #34
tony d
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Sens fan who voted for Option 3.

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07-17-2017, 01:55 PM
  #35
The Winter Soldier
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Karlsson was better overall. Offensively is a good debate when you factor in the eras they both played in.

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07-17-2017, 02:00 PM
  #36
The Winter Soldier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DominicBoltsFan View Post
coffey is a top-5 dman of all time
I began watching hockey when Orr and Park played and I will tell you absolutely not was Coffey a top 5 best Dman of all time.

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07-17-2017, 02:05 PM
  #37
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How is Karlsson winning this?

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07-17-2017, 02:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Coffey scored a lot of points, which means he had the puck a lot, which he did, he also carried the puck a lot and was a 4th forward basically with that skill, but he was by no means a slouch defensively at all, the fact that people are so ho-hum about Karlsson being better "all around" and that his offense compared to Coffey is "Debatable" is just...I mean, hfboards being hfboards at its finest.
Not to take anything away from Coffey, but the peak of his career in terms of offensive production was along either 99 or 66. Karlsson has had much less to work with than the most offensively stacked teams of all time in the highest-scoring era of all time. Offensively, Coffey > Karlsson and pretty much everyone not named Bobby Orr, but those getting dazzled by the 40 goal and 130 point seasons Coffey put up need to take into account the talent he had to work with and the era he played in.

Coffey wasn't a slouch defensively, but he wasn't particularly good, either. I'd still give Karlsson a sizeable edge there.

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07-17-2017, 02:10 PM
  #39
Bank Shot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
I think it's easy to undervalue Coffey's offensive ability due to playing with 99 and 66 during his prime. But to put it into perspective, during the shortened 94-95 season he led Detroit in scoring by a fair margin. He outscored Fedorov in between his peak seasons and Yzerman. And Coffey wasn't in his peak during that time.

He was a dominant offensive talent.
66 never had a monster season until Coffey came to town. Fedorov's peak came with Coffey in town as well.

I think Coffey zoomed these guys as much as they zoomed him.

Yeah Coffey played with Gretzky. But Coffey outscored all the other Hall of Fame forwards on that team.

He's in another offensive class from Karlsson unless you look for excuses to downgrade Coffey's accomplishments.

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07-17-2017, 03:01 PM
  #40
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I think people may be underestimating just how good Coffey was offensively. From 2009-2017 Karlsson had 117 g and 456 points in 556 games. Over the period from 1980-1988 Coffey had 224 goals and 736 points in 578 games. Both started as 19 year olds.

No doubt a good part of the reason for this underestimation is the sense that he played with great players at a time when scoring was substantially up. But the latter statement in particular has to be put in context. While there is no doubt that scoring was higher it is also important to note that today's game has evolved in such a way that defensemen are far more involved in the offense than they were during Coffey's time. If you want evidence to support this look at the top scorers in the year that Coffey had his monster year.

Coffey had 48 goals and 138 points. The next highest scoring defensemen were Robinson and Mark Howe, both Hall of Famers with 82 points and 19 and 24 goals respectively. In addition the 10th highest scoring defenseman that year was Rob Ramage with 66 points and the 30th highest scoring defenseman was Charlie Huddy with 41 points. This year in contrast, the two highest scoring defensemen were at 76 and 72 points respectively and the 30th highest scoring defenseman had 39 points. The difference is not nearly so great as for the same group of forwards. And this is not really all that much of an anomaly comparing scoring by defensemen then vs now.

In fact, during the period from 1980-1988 Coffey had 3 seasons over 120 points. No one else had 100 with Bourque and Gary Sutter being the only other defensemen to exceed 85 points during that period.

People think Coffey played like a rover. But I would say that he was less so than even Karlsson, not that either really played that way all the time. Moreover, while Coffey was undoubtedly a key part of the Oiler's offense it did not run through him like Ottawa's offense does with Karlsson. For this reason I am far less convinced that Karlsson's numbers would have increased nearly as much had he been playing back in the 80's.

I also think that the weaknesses in Coffey's defensive game are way over blown. He was no shut down defenseman but was probably the best of his generation at getting the puck out of his own end. And it's very hard to score if the puck is not in your end. In addition he was actually a lot more physical both in front of the net and along the boards than many give him credit for.

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Old
07-17-2017, 03:30 PM
  #41
bigwillie
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It's easy to write off Coffey's totals as byproducts of their era, but looking at Hockey Reference's adjusted points, which account for era, Coffey comes across as clearly superior. Each player's top-5 adjusted point single season totals:

Karlsson

15/16 - 92
11/12 - 86
13/14 - 82
16/17 - 78
14/15 - 73

Coffey:
85/86 - 108
83/84 - 100
94/95 - 100
84/85 - 96
88/89 - 94

You can argue that gap is a result of Coffey playing with two of the best players of all-time, but you can't argue Coffey simply feasted during the high-flying 80's. It certainly helped his raw totals, but Coffey stood even farther above his peers than Karlsson.

Also, points to Coffey for having two of his very best seasons nearly a decade apart. Hopefully Karlsson can do the same.

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Old
07-17-2017, 05:46 PM
  #42
Ben White
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwillie View Post
It's easy to write off Coffey's totals as byproducts of their era, but looking at Hockey Reference's adjusted points, which account for era, Coffey comes across as clearly superior. Each player's top-5 adjusted point single season totals:

Karlsson

15/16 - 92
11/12 - 86
13/14 - 82
16/17 - 78
14/15 - 73

Coffey:
85/86 - 108
83/84 - 100
94/95 - 100
84/85 - 96
88/89 - 94

You can argue that gap is a result of Coffey playing with two of the best players of all-time, but you can't argue Coffey simply feasted during the high-flying 80's. It certainly helped his raw totals, but Coffey stood even farther above his peers than Karlsson.

Also, points to Coffey for having two of his very best seasons nearly a decade apart. Hopefully Karlsson can do the same.
You can't even remotely compare the pre cap superpower dynasties that Coffey played for to the blue-collar Ottawa Senators of 2017, with one superstar defenseman (responsible for driving all the offense + being the defensive anchor, gamebreaker, leader, clutch scorer etc.) and a bunch of solid or mediochre players who he almost led to the Stanley Cup finals. Despite Coffey's numbers this is not close. Coffey was never the best player on his team, never a true leader.

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Old
07-17-2017, 06:22 PM
  #43
silkyjohnson50
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^ I know that you're a big Karlsson fan, but I hope you can recognize that Karlsson would have never been close to being the best player on his team if he played with 99 and 66 too.

So exactly what point did your statement make then?

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07-17-2017, 06:39 PM
  #44
Fourier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben White View Post
You can't even remotely compare the pre cap superpower dynasties that Coffey played for to the blue-collar Ottawa Senators of 2017, with one superstar defenseman (responsible for driving all the offense + being the defensive anchor, gamebreaker, leader, clutch scorer etc.) and a bunch of solid or mediochre players who he almost led to the Stanley Cup finals. Despite Coffey's numbers this is not close. Coffey was never the best player on his team, never a true leader.
Had Karlsson played with Gretzky or Lemieux he would not have been the best player on his team either. And who knows if a 34 year old Karlsson would be better than Federov in his prime. But we do know that even at that age he still significantly outscored with 7 more points in 5 less games a 25 year old Nick Lidstrom who ended up being one of the best offensive defensemen (and of course the best all round defensemen) of his generation.


And Coffey was definitely an offensive leader on the best offensive team in the history of the league. He most certainly was a game breaker and was absolutely a clutch scorer. If you don't believe that you must not have watched him in the 85 playoffs. He had 59 career playoff goals. Karlsson has 6. Of course Coffey played a lot more games in the post season but he certainly scored far more key goals and had a lot more impact on the postseason over his career than Karlsson has.

Bottom line is that just like we will never know what Lemieux would have been like playing without injuries we can't know what Karlsson would have done with Coffey's team mates. But we do know that Coffey absolutely made the best of those opportunities and that the guys he played with also benefitted greatly from his skills.

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07-17-2017, 06:42 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben White View Post
You can't even remotely compare the pre cap superpower dynasties that Coffey played for to the blue-collar Ottawa Senators of 2017, with one superstar defenseman (responsible for driving all the offense + being the defensive anchor, gamebreaker, leader, clutch scorer etc.) and a bunch of solid or mediochre players who he almost led to the Stanley Cup finals. Despite Coffey's numbers this is not close. Coffey was never the best player on his team, never a true leader.
Wow

Coffey was the absolute best skating defenseman I have seen play since Orr. He was a point producing machine.

I get a kick out of people stating "AINEC". Most of these posters likely haven't even watched Coffey play, all they have seen is Karlsson play and think that there is no way anyone could be better than him. Kind of the same way for me about Doug Harvey, way before my time but as I understand it he was nothing short of fantastic.

I have been watching the Oilers since the WHA days. In my opinion Coffey is a top ten defenseman. Karlsson...not yet but close.

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Old
07-17-2017, 07:19 PM
  #46
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So if everyone uses the elite teammates excuse then wouldnt EK's comparable be more-so Al MacInnis?

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Old
07-17-2017, 11:09 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefWiggum View Post
You have to give it to Karlsson for two reasons

1) He is currently a better defensive player than Coffey was, even if he uses an unorthodox style

2) Karlsson played on a much weaker team while Coffey (to exaggerate the fact) was riding on Messier and Gretzky's coat tails
You can't punish Coffey for playing with Gretzky. That doesn't make him a worse player. And the guy came from Edmonton to Pittsburgh and turned that team around when it was sad sack (even with Mario on it) pretty quickly. The man deserves some respect.

As for who's better... coin toss. I'll throw a vote to Coffee because he's running behind in this poll.

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07-18-2017, 12:13 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You can't punish Coffey for playing with Gretzky. That doesn't make him a worse player. And the guy came from Edmonton to Pittsburgh and turned that team around when it was sad sack (even with Mario on it) pretty quickly. The man deserves some respect.

As for who's better... coin toss. I'll throw a vote to Coffee because he's running behind in this poll.
Did the same thing.

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07-18-2017, 08:27 AM
  #49
trentmccleary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwillie View Post
It's easy to write off Coffey's totals as byproducts of their era, but looking at Hockey Reference's adjusted points, which account for era, Coffey comes across as clearly superior. Each player's top-5 adjusted point single season totals:

Karlsson

15/16 - 92
11/12 - 86
13/14 - 82
16/17 - 78
14/15 - 73

Coffey:
85/86 - 108
83/84 - 100
94/95 - 100
84/85 - 96
88/89 - 94

You can argue that gap is a result of Coffey playing with two of the best players of all-time, but you can't argue Coffey simply feasted during the high-flying 80's. It certainly helped his raw totals, but Coffey stood even farther above his peers than Karlsson.

Also, points to Coffey for having two of his very best seasons nearly a decade apart. Hopefully Karlsson can do the same.
For those who haven't looked this up;

Karlsson's top-5 era adjusted seasons look exactly like Coffey's 5th to 9th best seasons.

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07-18-2017, 10:23 AM
  #50
Ben White
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
^ I know that you're a big Karlsson fan, but I hope you can recognize that Karlsson would have never been close to being the best player on his team if he played with 99 and 66 too.

So exactly what point did your statement make then?
I mean the "what if game" and "what if not game" works both ways. If we don't give EK credit for the numbers he could have produced on a dynasty team (and rightfully so) we have to give him credit for the fact that he's a proven leader on a mediochre team which he almost led to the SC finals, on one foot... We have to use the same argument for Coffey but in the opposite direction off course. We know what kind of numbers he did put up playing for a dynasty, we don't know what he could've done as the undisputed leader and best player on his team.

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