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Panthers May Follow Dallas Stars Model

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Old
04-06-2008, 07:08 PM
  #26
Dread Clawz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint View Post
No.

What if the conversation went like this?

"Hey, Joe. Can you tell me a player that you've played with the past few years who is still relatively young, has speed, size, and the willingness to throw his body around? Do you know anyone who forechecks with tenacity, who finishes his checks with authority, and who is willing to backcheck? Are there any guys around that you know of who can fill any role asked of them, have leadership skills, are good in the locker room? Can you think of a player that will leave it all out on the ice and stand up for his team mates? Do you know anyone who fits this bill, Joe? Oh, did I mention that he has to be signed past this year and can't be to expensive to pick up at the deadline?"

"Yeah, Jacques. I do know a guy like that. His name is Chad Kilger. I played with him in Toronto in 2004. He's a hard worker and I think he may fit well on this team."

How in God's freaking name can Joe Nieuwendyk be held responsible for Chad Kilger's 'personal issues?' Just because he suggested his name to Jacques Martin? That's absurd and I really think you're jumping to conclusions.
Well, you're jumping to conclusions thinking that the conversation was as limited as you speculate and that Newy's responsibility in the matter was also very limited. Like I said, we don't know for sure what Newy's role in this matter was, but you can't put all the blame on Martin here and totally absolve Newy. He recommended him to Martin and convinced him he'd be a good fit here, that in itself puts some blame on his shoulders. And if the Panthers found out about Kilger's previous abscence, and Newy still urged JM to trade for him anyway, then he deserves some blame for that.

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04-06-2008, 07:09 PM
  #27
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Jeff Gorton is a pro scout for the Rangers.

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Old
04-06-2008, 07:22 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
He recommended him to Martin and convinced him he'd be a good fit here, that in itself puts some blame on his shoulders.


How? HOWHOWHOWHOWHOWHOWHOWHOW?

Jim: Hey Bob, where do you think is a good place to live?
Bob: I hear South Florida is a nice! I recommend you move there!

So is it Bob's fault that Jim's house gets destroyed after Hurricane Andrew? Is it Bob's responsibility, and does he share the blame that Jim lost his house?

The only way it could POSSIBLY be Joe N's fault is if he was responsible for doing research on the guy and his background. IF you can convince me that JM gave Nieuwy that job, THEN I will concede that this is his fault. Until then, in no way does Joe share responsibility in the Kilger fiasco.

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04-06-2008, 07:38 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Clint View Post


How? HOWHOWHOWHOWHOWHOWHOWHOW?

Jim: Hey Bob, where do you think is a good place to live?
Bob: I hear South Florida is a nice! I recommend you move there!

So is it Bob's fault that Jim's house gets destroyed after Hurricane Andrew? Is it Bob's responsibility, and does he share the blame that Jim lost his house?

The only way it could POSSIBLY be Joe N's fault is if he was responsible for doing research on the guy and his background. IF you can convince me that JM gave Nieuwy that job, THEN I will concede that this is his fault. Until then, in no way does Joe share responsibility in the Kilger fiasco.
HOWHOWHOW????? Because Newy vouched for Kilger, that's how. Jim and Bob have nothing to do with this, it's a totally different situation and has nothing even to do with hockey. Besides, you're assuming that the conversation was that simple, and that Newy's role in the matter was that limited.

Like I said, on arguably the busiest day of the season for JM, who is the head coach AND GM, when Newy recommends JM should trade for Kilger, yes he deserves part of the blame. An advisor to a GM doesn't just get accolades when he plays a part in something going well. It goes both ways. Just like when amateur scouts get credit for making a good selection in the draft or pro scouts get credit for finding a diamond in the rough in some remote corner of the hockey universe( i.e. Panther scouts getting credit for suggesting Matthias to JM).

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04-06-2008, 07:46 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
HOWHOWHOW????? Because Newy vouched for Kilger, that's how. Jim and Bob have nothing to do with this, it's a totally different situation and has nothing even to do with hockey. Besides, you're assuming that the conversation was that simple, and that Newy's role in the matter was that limited.

Like I said, on arguably the busiest day of the season for JM, who is the head coach AND GM, when Newy recommends JM should trade for Kilger, yes he deserves part of the blame. An advisor to a GM doesn't just get accolades when he plays a part in something going well. It goes both ways. Just like when amateur scouts get credit for making a good selection in the draft or pro scouts get credit for finding a diamond in the rough in some remote corner of the hockey universe( i.e. Panther scouts getting credit for suggesting Matthias to JM).
Again, the only way Nieuwy shoulders any sort of blame for his is if he:

1) Knew about Kilger's personal issues and that he would miss significant playing time because of them - and either misled Martin or neglected to tell him about it.

2) Personally caused Kilger's issues in the first place.

Outside of those two conditions, you can not convince me that he is at fault for merely making a personnel suggestion. If he pulled the trigger on the trade, then by all means he's at fault. But he didn't. Martin did. And I don't really blame him, either. I think that Kilger will be a solid performer next year on the 3rd and 4th lines.

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04-06-2008, 07:55 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint View Post
Again, the only way Nieuwy shoulders any sort of blame for his is if he:

1) Knew about Kilger's personal issues and that he would miss significant playing time because of them - and either misled Martin or neglected to tell him about it.

2) Personally caused Kilger's issues in the first place.

Outside of those two conditions, you can not convince me that he is at fault for merely making a personnel suggestion. If he pulled the trigger on the trade, then by all means he's at fault. But he didn't. Martin did. And I don't really blame him, either. I think that Kilger will be a solid performer next year on the 3rd and 4th lines.
Yes, GMs take all the brunt of criticism when they trust their advisors and scouts and things don't work out well. But that doesn't mean that those advisors or scouts aren't partly to blame. Like I said, they get the accolades when they do something positive, and they should get blame as well if something goes awry, and they do. To totally absolve Newy in this matter is really letting him off the hook way too easily.

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04-06-2008, 07:57 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
According to Garrioch, the Panthers may follow the Dallas Stars Model and replace JM with Co-General Managers.

(The man feeling the most heat is Florida coach and GM Jacques Martin. Missing the playoffs isn't sitting well with Panthers owner Alan Cohen. Cohen could be looking at having co-GMs like they have in Dallas with Les Jackson and Brett Hull . While Joe Nieuwendyk could take on more of a role in the front office, the talk is the Panthers might hire former Boston assistant GM Jeff Gorton to work with the longtime NHL great. Cohen has a lot of respect for Gorton. "It's up to the owner," said Florida G Tomas Vokoun. "When something like this happens, usually there are changes, in the sense there should be changes." )

http://www.ottawasun.com/Sports/Colu...06331-sun.html

That would be a complete joke... Good thing Garrioch has zero credibility

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04-06-2008, 08:17 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint View Post
Again, the only way Nieuwy shoulders any sort of blame for his is if he:

1) Knew about Kilger's personal issues and that he would miss significant playing time because of them - and either misled Martin or neglected to tell him about it.

2) Personally caused Kilger's issues in the first place.

Outside of those two conditions, you can not convince me that he is at fault for merely making a personnel suggestion. If he pulled the trigger on the trade, then by all means he's at fault. But he didn't. Martin did. And I don't really blame him, either. I think that Kilger will be a solid performer next year on the 3rd and 4th lines.
Now that would make for a very interesting story.

All kidding aside, until we know the full extent of Nieuwy's role in this selection, I'll chalk this one up to a gamble that didn't pay off.

Given the fact that Kilger had gone through some personal issues prior to the trade, I think JM knew there was some risk involved, but was still willing to give it a go. Nothing wrong with that IMO, as risky moves are generally the ones that can payoff big. Among other things, I think he may have asked Nieuwy if he felt Kilger possessed the character to play through his personal issues.

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04-06-2008, 08:34 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint View Post


How? HOWHOWHOWHOWHOWHOWHOWHOW?

Jim: Hey Bob, where do you think is a good place to live?
Bob: I hear South Florida is a nice! I recommend you move there!

So is it Bob's fault that Jim's house gets destroyed after Hurricane Andrew? Is it Bob's responsibility, and does he share the blame that Jim lost his house?

The only way it could POSSIBLY be Joe N's fault is if he was responsible for doing research on the guy and his background. IF you can convince me that JM gave Nieuwy that job, THEN I will concede that this is his fault. Until then, in no way does Joe share responsibility in the Kilger fiasco.
That is all good & fine if Bob & Jim are friends. When Bob is Jim's paid consultant, it changes things.

Noone is blaming Nieuwendyk directly. At least I'm not. On the other hand if you are willing to give him credit if the move works out (and I'm sure you are), then he has to share in the responsibility if it doesn't.

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04-06-2008, 09:13 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
That is all good & fine if Bob & Jim are friends. When Bob is Jim's paid consultant, it changes things.
Understandable. As a paid consultant Bob would be obligated to tell Jim about all the weather issues that he knows of, and of course I am referencing the possibility of hurricanes.

However, it's common knowledge that South Florida suffers from summer hurricanes. It is NOT common knowledge that Chad Kilger has personal issues that cause him to miss considerable chunks of the season.

Quote:
Noone is blaming Nieuwendyk directly. At least I'm not. On the other hand if you are willing to give him credit if the move works out (and I'm sure you are), then he has to share in the responsibility if it doesn't.
I disagree. If the move works out, both he and Martin share the credit... Niewendyk for the suggestion and Martin for pulling the trigger.

The blame, on the other hand, goes to WHOEVER WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR DETERMINING WHETHER KILGER'S PERSONAL ISSUES WOULD AFFECT HIS ABILITY TO PLAY OUT THE SEASON.

Whether that's Nieuwendyk, O'Flaherty, Sutter, Jokinen or Yormark, whomever was delegated that responsibility is at "fault" for this. I'm not trying to exonerate Nieuwendyk. I'm just saying that until we know all the details of this fiasco, we should withhold the grade of FAIL for Nieuwy's suggestion of Kilger.

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04-07-2008, 02:38 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Yes, GMs take all the brunt of criticism when they trust their advisors and scouts and things don't work out well. But that doesn't mean that those advisors or scouts aren't partly to blame. Like I said, they get the accolades when they do something positive, and they should get blame as well if something goes awry, and they do. To totally absolve Newy in this matter is really letting him off the hook way too easily.
I'm glad you posted this. If Kilger came here and played and totally sucked - had a negative impact on the team, became a cancer in the locker-room, didn't hustle, didn't forecheck or backcheck, caused more goals to be scored against us than for us - then yes, Nieuwendyk would shoulder half the blame for the Kilger suggestion because he should have known what kind of player was coming over.

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04-07-2008, 08:48 PM
  #37
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I'm glad you posted this. If Kilger came here and played and totally sucked - had a negative impact on the team, became a cancer in the locker-room, didn't hustle, didn't forecheck or backcheck, caused more goals to be scored against us than for us - then yes, Nieuwendyk would shoulder half the blame for the Kilger suggestion because he should have known what kind of player was coming over.
The fact is, Newy still recommended him. On the busiest day of the year for GMs, where JM is both head coach and GM, Newy suggested to Martin to go after Kilger. It doesn't matter that he may not have known about his personal issues when he made the suggestion. There has to be blame laid somewhere for this. Like I said, it's Martin's fault that he trusted Newy. But is Newy really totally absolved? Just because Martin is the GM and handled the paperwork and notified the NHL of the trade? Newy gets a totally free pass just because he doesn't hold a certain title? IMO, that's letting him off the hook too easily. They should both share blame.

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04-07-2008, 09:44 PM
  #38
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Let's say I worked at top restaurants and retired. MisterBouw opens a new high end restaurant where I work for two years as chef. I retire from my position but stay on board as a paid consultant.

MisterBouw is looking for a new produce supplier. I suggest that Mappellaff's Fruity Emporium has good produce at reasonable prices. MisterBouw orders next weeks produce order.

Next week the produce doesn't arrive. The company has declared chapter 11. There will be no produce any time soon - maybe never.

Who's responsibility is it? Ultimately it's MisterBouw's. It's his restaurant.

As a paid consultant I share in that responsibility. I am being paid to give advice. In this case I just relied on past memories and threw out a name I remembered. That's fine if all I ever want to be is MisterBouw's personal advisor (although maybe not fine for MisterBouw). If I wanted to run my own restaurant one day, I would have checked into the supplier before recommending it. After all, it may be MisterBouw's restaurant, but it's MY reputation.

I don't think the patrons of MisterBouw's restaurant should be angry at me when they get served frozen veggies next week. They should, and will, take out their frustrations on MisterBouw. On the other hand, investors in MisterBouw's Restaurant should take this into consideration if they are planning on usurping MisterBouw and putting me in his stead.

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04-07-2008, 09:47 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Let's say I worked at top restaurants and retired. MisterBouw opens a new high end restaurant where I work for two years as chef. I retire from my position but stay on board as a paid consultant.

MisterBouw is looking for a new produce supplier. I suggest that Mappellaff's Fruity Emporium has good produce at reasonable prices. MisterBouw orders next weeks produce order.

Next week the produce doesn't arrive. The company has declared chapter 11. There will be no produce any time soon - maybe never.

Who's responsibility is it? Ultimately it's MisterBouw's. It's his restaurant.

As a paid consultant I share in that responsibility. I am being paid to give advice. In this case I just relied on past memories and threw out a name I remembered. That's fine if all I ever want to be is MisterBouw's personal advisor (although maybe not fine for MisterBouw). If I wanted to run my own restaurant one day, I would have checked into the supplier before recommending it. After all, it may be MisterBouw's restaurant, but it's MY reputation.

I don't think the patrons of MisterBouw's restaurant should be angry at me when they get served frozen veggies next week. They should, and will, take out their frustrations on MisterBouw. On the other hand, investors in MisterBouw's Restaurant should take this into consideration if they are planning on usurping MisterBouw and putting me in his stead.
I definitely couldn't have said it better myself, ATF.

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04-07-2008, 09:56 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Let's say I worked at top restaurants and retired. MisterBouw opens a new high end restaurant where I work for two years as chef. I retire from my position but stay on board as a paid consultant.

MisterBouw is looking for a new produce supplier. I suggest that Mappellaff's Fruity Emporium has good produce at reasonable prices. MisterBouw orders next weeks produce order.

Next week the produce doesn't arrive. The company has declared chapter 11. There will be no produce any time soon - maybe never.

Who's responsibility is it? Ultimately it's MisterBouw's. It's his restaurant.

As a paid consultant I share in that responsibility. I am being paid to give advice. In this case I just relied on past memories and threw out a name I remembered. That's fine if all I ever want to be is MisterBouw's personal advisor (although maybe not fine for MisterBouw). If I wanted to run my own restaurant one day, I would have checked into the supplier before recommending it. After all, it may be MisterBouw's restaurant, but it's MY reputation.

I don't think the patrons of MisterBouw's restaurant should be angry at me when they get served frozen veggies next week. They should, and will, take out their frustrations on MisterBouw. On the other hand, investors in MisterBouw's Restaurant should take this into consideration if they are planning on usurping MisterBouw and putting me in his stead.


Argh, I thought I had my philosophy classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Good show, ATF. Good show.

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04-07-2008, 10:04 PM
  #41
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I definitely couldn't have said it better myself, ATF.
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Argh, I thought I had my philosophy classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Good show, ATF. Good show.
I'm glad you enjoyed that.

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04-07-2008, 10:09 PM
  #42
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I'm glad you enjoyed that.
You should have let us go on a little more before chiming in. Who knows where MisterBouw and I would have taken Bob and Jim.

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