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Wondering how you feel about what this article says about Joe?

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Old
09-12-2017, 04:28 PM
  #1
frogman210
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Wondering how you feel about what this article says about Joe?

Hey fellow Avalanche fans out there,

I know that the whole should he stay or should he go deal with GM Joe Sakic is a very polarizing thing and seems to have a lot of the fan base pretty split as far as how they feel and who they blame for the last few and the team's current situation.

I think that this article makes some interesting points but at the same time, I am a bit torn on how I feel personally as well. I just would like to know what you guys (and girls) think. Do you agree with the sticking points mentioned in this article, or do you think that you have your own sticking points that are different? If you do and they are different, then what are they and have they been crossed yet or do you think that we should keep the faith in GM Joe Sakic?

Here is the link to the article.

https://puckplanet.com/2017/09/05/sakics-last-stand/

I am an HFboard partner, but I am not sure why the little prefix deals not showing up anymore. If any mods know how I can get that prefix set up again that would be awesome, thanks, I appreciate it!


I really honestly am intrigued and would like to hear what your thoughts are please respond and let me know what you're thinking and feeling about this whole situation. Thanks! Many life long Avalanche fans have a hard time differentiating Joe Sakic the Hall of Famer who brought us 2 Championships, and GM Joe Sakic from what I have heard from other fans I talked with. I will check back in a couple hours to see what you guys think and then ill try and piece together my opinions and thoughts on the whole thing in that time too so that I can share my thoughts with you as well. Thanks again, have a great day and (Hope you have been enjoying the Avs prospect games ) #HockyIsBackBaby!!

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09-12-2017, 08:05 PM
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Tweaky
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Most of it just seems to be saying the same things many of us see and/or feel already.

I will say that the Zadorov bit hits me funny. I am in the camp that Z is asking for too much. A young D that has proven nothing nor has not produced at the NHL level, still makes too many mistakes, and may have durability issues (unlikely, but missing and average of 12 games per pro season could be a concern), despite highlight reel hits. His initial ask was $3M....double Sakic's initial offer that matched the low end of comps. The offer was increased by 33%, the ask reduced only 16.6%, which is where we sit now...and people are saying he should cave. Paying Z the $2.5M he is asking for would be giving him 67% over a comparable's contract.

It also seem to have an inflated idea of Z's potential. A floor of #1D, albeit not an elite one, and a ceiling that goes up from there??? No, his floor at this point is Ryan Wilson...big hitter, fair at best in his end, and some offense from the blue line. And Z is rather behind Wilson on the offense at the NHL level so far. I personally think Z will progress, and become significantly better than Wilson ever was...but he has not shown that yet, and does not warrant being paid for it yet. His ceiling could very well be Chara or something on that level. But until he shows some real signs of progressing towards that, a $2M bridge is more than fair.

I do like the Duchene trade return goals, but I am betting many here will think that is more than he can get.

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09-18-2017, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweaky View Post
Most of it just seems to be saying the same things many of us see and/or feel already.

I will say that the Zadorov bit hits me funny. I am in the camp that Z is asking for too much. A young D that has proven nothing nor has not produced at the NHL level, still makes too many mistakes, and may have durability issues (unlikely, but missing and average of 12 games per pro season could be a concern), despite highlight reel hits. His initial ask was $3M....double Sakic's initial offer that matched the low end of comps. The offer was increased by 33%, the ask reduced only 16.6%, which is where we sit now...and people are saying he should cave. Paying Z the $2.5M he is asking for would be giving him 67% over a comparable's contract.

It also seem to have an inflated idea of Z's potential. A floor of #1D, albeit not an elite one, and a ceiling that goes up from there??? No, his floor at this point is Ryan Wilson...big hitter, fair at best in his end, and some offense from the blue line. And Z is rather behind Wilson on the offense at the NHL level so far. I personally think Z will progress, and become significantly better than Wilson ever was...but he has not shown that yet, and does not warrant being paid for it yet. His ceiling could very well be Chara or something on that level. But until he shows some real signs of progressing towards that, a $2M bridge is more than fair.

I do like the Duchene trade return goals, but I am betting many here will think that is more than he can get.

That is an interesting take, while i don't personally see it the same in many ways, I do appreciate the information and you taking the time share your thoughts. As far as joe staying or going I think that since we got Z signed now and he will be in camp shortly that is one thing taken care of. I would have rather had him there from the start as I feel like this season is vital for him as far as developmentally goes and this season is going to be what shows where he will go. I honestly feel like from pouring over game film and watching where he was at his draft year where he was with the sabres and finally where he is now with the Avalanche starting last season and up to where he got hurt that he has developed a lot. He has shown alot, and honestly with the new power play system and coach (the Avalanche got one of the best pp percentage coaches out there over the last 10 years or so) I have an article where i broke down some of this here if you want to check it out. That it is not out of the questoin that Z puts up 30+ points this season and next season.

The way he was moving the puck on the powerplay and manning and even QBing it right before he got hurt was down right impressive. Did he put up numbers? No, did very many players for the Avalanche until the last 6 games or so put up numbers? Not really.. The Zadorov manned power play unit was moving the puck crisp quickly and getting shots to the net.

Is this a bit more then most think of him? probably, but I honestly feel like we are going to see it with the way that the new coaches use Z especially on the power play.

I do understand the concerns and you made some very valid arguements and I appreciate your rational and backing it up with numbers. I would say that Z will either be what I see him as or he will be what you are saying he is showing now. I do not really see any middle ground for him as far as his development goes. Also another key point you made is injurys.. yes, that could be an issue. I feel like if he goes out this season for any significant length of time that becomes an instant big ticket issue (so that is a very solid point for not giving him the long term deal here). In fact you may have made me start to question my initial thoughts about it. So great work there, I appreciate it.

Do you personally write for any websites or companys covering sports stuff? If so could you send me a link on here or private messgae? I would love to read some more of your thoughts on hockey.

Anyways as far as Joe for me it really does have to come down to what happens with Duchene. In camp it appears that him and Yak have found instantanious amazing chemestry. That is one thing that makes me worry about moving him still (witch it seems that is the rumored thought that most have that duchene will still be moved). He has had the A removed from his jersey as well in camp. Do you think that we should still move Duchene even with him and yak looking so solid? If so do you feel the pressing need for D is just too much of an issue now, or do you feel like with how things played out joe and Ducehen just wont be able to come to a resolution to work things out now?

Thanks! Sorry for the delayed responce btw, i looked for my post the other night and i couldnt find it. I had to ask how to find the recent ones ive posted in. Sorry for all the questions, I just am really intruiged by yoru thoughts about the situation.

I think that if whatever way we go with Duchene turns out to work out well for the the first half of the season or so that Joe probably deserves to stay on as I feel like hes had a sneaky good under the radar type off season. Probably... no I will say by far his best as a GM so far to this point. but, that Duchene thing still rubs me the wrong way from the whole way it started 2 years back publicly, and 3 years back internally and with the media etc.

Thanks, looking forward to hearing back from you! Have a great day man, and enjoy pre season getting started up! #GoAvs!!!

(Ps while we are at it, what do you think of the wilson and yak aquisitions? Both seem pretty low risk to no risk with potentially significant reward on paper, and on the eye test yaks looked legit so far.. still early and no real games yet to judge it on but time will tell.) Thanks!

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09-18-2017, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogman210 View Post
...
Always happy to have a rational discussion about hockey. I do not write for anywhere but here. I do not really get to watch as much as I would like (of NA/Euro hockey...plenty of Asian). And that leads to me having to decline to answer about the effect of the Yak/Duchene chemistry on the need to trade him. Without having seen it myself, I think he still needs to move. But if he is playing happy, then we can hang on to him until the return forces us to move him...and that is going to be the only way we get enough help on D to make it worth it. Otherwise the D help we get back will be insufficient to really solidify the back end the way we want. If he is not gelling with Yak to that extent, then his numbers will never be where they would have to be to get us that kind of D, and we may as well take the best (fair) offer we can get right now and end the misery.

I never really paid attention, do the practice jerseys have the captain's C and A's? The only indication I have seen that he lost it is the new home jersey of his that was missing it...but last year his home jersey never had it...he was the road A, and MacK was the home A. Not that I think he should keep the A...not "identifying as an Av" in the off season, missing captains practice, and general lack of leadership ability seem to me to be plenty to pull it, on top of him maybe shipping out soon.

Zad's ended up getting 43.3% over the initial offer, while coming down 28.3% his starting ask. Joe caved a bit, but not bad. And I think it is enough to mend the fence, so re-signing him in two years should not be too hard. And I think that is fair, as he has flashed being ready to take the next step. he just needs to do it consistently, and stay healthy.

I agree with you about the off-season being better than most give him credit for. The only glaring fault is Duchene. And that could yet turn out well (but I am betting most would scoff at the thought). Buying out FB, no new bad contracts, decent deal for Z, etc. But his job security rides entirely on the outcome of the Duchene situation. I do feel that he could have upgraded the coaching more than he did, but I understand the desire to give Bednar another (fair) chance. I just have to think that the leash is very short.

I am optimistic about both Wilson and Yakupov. Both they and the kids that should be getting a lot of playing time ought to do well this year. At least I hope they do.

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09-18-2017, 12:51 PM
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We will see on Wilson. He was a bit of a disappointment in Nashville, but could be a very good two-way player for the Avs. I'm hoping he will be everything Blake Comeau failed to be in Colorado. I'm not thrilled about the deal but don't hate it either. What I hope it means is that Sakic is working diligently on getting out from under the contracts of Comeau, Colborne, and Soderberg.

I think Yakupov will ultimately fail but still very much want to see that cannon of a shot in person. I don't have much issue with the Avs taking a chance for roughly $850K either way.

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09-18-2017, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweaky View Post
Always happy to have a rational discussion about hockey. I do not write for anywhere but here. I do not really get to watch as much as I would like (of NA/Euro hockey...plenty of Asian). And that leads to me having to decline to answer about the effect of the Yak/Duchene chemistry on the need to trade him. Without having seen it myself, I think he still needs to move. But if he is playing happy, then we can hang on to him until the return forces us to move him...and that is going to be the only way we get enough help on D to make it worth it. Otherwise the D help we get back will be insufficient to really solidify the back end the way we want. If he is not gelling with Yak to that extent, then his numbers will never be where they would have to be to get us that kind of D, and we may as well take the best (fair) offer we can get right now and end the misery.

I never really paid attention, do the practice jerseys have the captain's C and A's? The only indication I have seen that he lost it is the new home jersey of his that was missing it...but last year his home jersey never had it...he was the road A, and MacK was the home A. Not that I think he should keep the A...not "identifying as an Av" in the off season, missing captains practice, and general lack of leadership ability seem to me to be plenty to pull it, on top of him maybe shipping out soon.

Zad's ended up getting 43.3% over the initial offer, while coming down 28.3% his starting ask. Joe caved a bit, but not bad. And I think it is enough to mend the fence, so re-signing him in two years should not be too hard. And I think that is fair, as he has flashed being ready to take the next step. he just needs to do it consistently, and stay healthy.

I agree with you about the off-season being better than most give him credit for. The only glaring fault is Duchene. And that could yet turn out well (but I am betting most would scoff at the thought). Buying out FB, no new bad contracts, decent deal for Z, etc. But his job security rides entirely on the outcome of the Duchene situation. I do feel that he could have upgraded the coaching more than he did, but I understand the desire to give Bednar another (fair) chance. I just have to think that the leash is very short.

I am optimistic about both Wilson and Yakupov. Both they and the kids that should be getting a lot of playing time ought to do well this year. At least I hope they do.
awesome, thanks for the info and your thoughts. I appreciate it. I think that you are right about the coaching situation. I feel like pretty much any coach who stepped into that kind of situation that late in the game was a proxy and many thought that Joe should have just named an interim coach until he found his man, but honestly looking at the situation I feel like Bednar was joes man, and it wasn't very likely that he would still be available by say this offseason if Joe just named someone as an interim coach for last year how it happened.

As far as the offseason I agree, as far as Wilson most don't realize that he scored more then I believe if I remember correctly any of the current avalanche players on our roster this season. (that being said he is 11 points if I recall correctly.. shy of averaging .5 points per game in his 500 plus game NHL career). Here is the link to the article where I had all that info and the numbers that I did the research for if you want to check out the for sure numbers. For a big physical still fairly young power forward those numbers are not bad at all. I know that much more was anticipated and expected of him being drafted so high and he obviously has the skill and ability to justify getting drafted that high. Even if he plays how he has to this point in his career I feel like he was a VERY solid addition to the team and if he by off chance is a bit of a late bloomer and turns into anything more then he is today well that is just an incredibl find them for the team and Joe. Especially for a future 4th round pick in my opinion.

Thanks for being up for having a rational hockey discussion. I hate how so many people take someone disagreeing with their thoughts as a personal attack or saying that person is an idiot or anything like that. I have very different hockey views then many of my really close friends who I absolutly love talking hockey with. If everyone agreed then it would make for some very boring conversation.

The one thing that I think will hurt the most moving Duchene will be his face off percentage as he was one of the top face off guys last season. That was really impressive aside form all the other stuff going on he really has improved on his face off over the years since he was drafted. I do not feel though that he will nesicierily be played at center if we do keep him.. just due to roster make up. I maybe could see him taking some faceoffs then switching to wing in play but it will be interesting. I also agree with the D situtation and that if things work out maybe Duchene havign a big start to the season might be enough to up his value enough to get him where he watns to be and get us that kind of return on D that we would really need.


Are the Avalanche your favorite team? Do you follow any other teams? I saw you follow some other leagues, or atleast are able to see them easier. Do you follow them closely or just beacuse they are the easiest hockey you have to watch? Thanks again for the good chat i am enjoying it!

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09-18-2017, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokecheque View Post
We will see on Wilson. He was a bit of a disappointment in Nashville, but could be a very good two-way player for the Avs. I'm hoping he will be everything Blake Comeau failed to be in Colorado. I'm not thrilled about the deal but don't hate it either. What I hope it means is that Sakic is working diligently on getting out from under the contracts of Comeau, Colborne, and Soderberg.

I think Yakupov will ultimately fail but still very much want to see that cannon of a shot in person. I don't have much issue with the Avs taking a chance for roughly $850K either way.
Do you consider Wilson averaging roughly 11 points shy of .5 points per game playing a physical power forward role for the Avs this season a disappointment? If not, then he should prove you happy for this season for the avs. I agree he never fully lived up to the hype and his draft role with the Preds. But that is what he averaged over his 500 plus NHL game career. If he does anything better than that it's amazing, but he still outscored I think every avalanche player last season too.. soo.. it think that even if he is what he was in Nashville he could be a very solid addition to the team in a 3rd line role. If he is a late bloomer and gets even better then hey more power to him. As far as the vet contracts yeah there are a couple more I would have tried to move or consider buying out but I think that if we knew we would be signing kerfoot for sure and tonitino sp? I think that soderberg would have been bought out as the team looks to be really going super young this season.(Which i approve of)

Thanks for the thoughts on yak as well, I think most expect him to fail, but all reports are that he's never worked this hard or been this dedicated in his NHL career and he's lighting it up in camp. So I am trying to stay cautiously optimistic. If he doesn't pan out then we haven't lost much we can wave and send him down and end of the year he's gone.. if he does even do decent though even as a sniper on the power play or something then that will be a helpful improvement. Though almost anything is over last season. So that argument looses some validity eventually I admit. lol

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