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Fantasy fight matches - who do you take?

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Old
09-12-2017, 07:58 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Fantasy fight matches - who do you take?

Just a little random here. I am trying to pick the players that as far as I know never fought each other. Should be interesting.

Howe vs. Lindros
Chara vs. Lindros
Probert vs. Lindros
Robinson vs. Lindros

Ray vs. O'Reilly

Messier vs. Gillies

Jonathan vs. Domi

Neely vs. Iginla

Howe vs. Cashman

Just a few random names out there. I really like the Lindros comparisons because one thing with Lindros is that he wouldn't back down. All of his competitors are scary fighters though so if he is going to lose to anyone it might be them. I can see him getting Chara though. There is a 5" height difference but I think he'd handle Chara because he got his punches away pretty fast and that would make up for the reach difference I think. The other three? I don't how he fares with them. He's three inches taller than Howe so he has an advantage there.

Ray and O'Reilly were perfect for each other because they were just wild animals on the ice and left themselves open. There would be a lot of wild swings in that fight with little regard.

Messier vs. Gillies. They never fought did they? Was there a chance and one of them backed down? Not that I know of, but I could be wrong. Both were feared so it would be interesting. I can't see Messier backing down per se but I can see him maybe not wanting any part of Gillies more than the other way around.

Jonathan and Domi is epic because they were both little guys. While Domi was around a lot longer and got in a lot more fights he fits in with Jonathan well because neither seemed to ever get hurt in a fight. It was like punching a pit bull.

Neely and Iginla, just two strong guys who played right wing and similar styles. Both strong 6'1" snipers who dropped the mitts a lot.

Howe and Cashman. Why? I don't know, Cashman just didn't seem to lose fights, or at least not clearly. He was never "out of it" from anything I saw and he fought a ton as well. He had that fight with Jim Schoenfeld where the Zamboni door opened up and Cashman took the brunt of that, but I think he'd be a tough foe for Howe. Cashman fought a lot of heavyweights too.

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Old
09-12-2017, 08:02 PM
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Big Phil
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By the way, just looking things up but did Mario really go 10 years from 1987 (Bob Gould) to 1997 (Aki Berg) without a fight? Surprised.

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Old
09-13-2017, 08:39 AM
  #3
Ogie Goldthorpe
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Provided the refs didn't intervene, Gillies would have dismantled Messier. Mess was mean, but not a great fighter.

Some other prime matchups...

Rypien vs. Jonathan

Probert vs. Gillies

Boogaard vs. Chara

Tocchet vs O'Reilly

Semenko vs. Schultz

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Old
09-13-2017, 08:53 AM
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GMR
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Lindros could hold his own against enforcers. Chara has a good reach but I've never thought of him as a great fighter. Just a big guy. Chara would use his reach and if the fight would go against him, he'd be quick to lose his balance. There's no fight videos of Howe and not many of Robinson. There is, of course, the video of him fighting Schultz, but much like Howe vs. Fontinato, I think that inflated Robinson's reputation somewhat. Sure, he could hold his own and was big and not many people wanted to mess with him. However, if he fought Schultz, Gillies, or Wilson 10 times, those guys would beat him more often that not. As for Probert, in his prime he'd beat Lindros. We're talking about likely the best fighter in league history.

Rob Ray had scary power but was never a great fighter. His win/loss record was about .500, although ironically, it improved after he stopped shedding his jerseys. O'Reilly was a little overrated, but I have him ahead of Ray.

Gillies would murder Messier and I'd pay a lot of money to watch that. It'd be even better if I was in a bar in Vancouver when that fight went down.

Jonathan vs. Domi is probably the most interesting fight on this list. Two best pound for pound fighters in league history.

Neely was a lot better fighter than Iginla. He was willing to fight enforcers, though I feel like he lost most of his fights against the top echelon guys. Still, I can't remember Iginla fighting anyone as tough as Clark, Kocur, Tocchet, Baumgartner, and Nilan.

As I said, not much fight video of Howe. Cashman, as you mentioned was a real gamer. One of my favorite fights happened during the famous brawl against the Islanders in the 1980 playoffs. Cashman got suckered by Howatt, who started teeing off on him. Then Cashman comes back and beats Howatt up. Great fight. Same game that Gillies fought O'Reilly and Nystrom fought Wensink. We don't have games like this anymore in hockey, unfortunately.

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Old
09-13-2017, 08:56 AM
  #5
tony d
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Did we ever see Domi vs. Probert?

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09-13-2017, 10:01 AM
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tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Did we ever see Domi vs. Probert?
They were probably the biggest rivals in the league for a time.



The epitome of the era when it seemed to really mean something if your guy could beat up the other team's guy.

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09-13-2017, 10:47 AM
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http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/fo...play.php?f=237

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09-13-2017, 11:06 AM
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McGuillicuddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
They were probably the biggest rivals in the league for a time.



The epitome of the era when it seemed to really mean something if your guy could beat up the other team's guy.
I assumed he was joking.

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Old
09-13-2017, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

Ray vs. O'Reilly

Jonathan vs. Domi

Howe vs. Cashman

These three caught my interest. Ray and O'Reilly...wow, two ferocious wildmen and I'd hate to be the official who tries to get between and break them up.

Jonathan vs. Domi - two short guys with thick skulls! Could be a lot of punches thrown before either shows any sign of wearing down.

Howe vs. Cashman is intriguing. I think Cash has been overshadowed in the pantheon of Bruin fighters by O'Reilly and Jonathan. I'd hate to get hit with a solid punch from Howe's monstrous mitts. Whew...

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Old
09-13-2017, 07:35 PM
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just my take on who would win.

Howe vs. Lindros
Chara vs. Lindros
Probert vs. Lindros
Robinson vs. Lindros

Ray vs. O'Reilly

Messier vs. Gillies

Jonathan vs. Domi - draw

Neely vs. Iginla

Howe vs. Cashman

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Old
09-14-2017, 01:35 PM
  #11
BobbyAwe
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Well, anything can happen in a given fight, but I don't see Howe doing that well against the better fighters of the more modern age. Howe's historical rep is largely because of the Fontinato slaughter, just one fight. It became a lot more technical later on with the evolution of the "goon" - guys who were in the league specifically and ONLY BECAUSE they were good at fighting. In Howe's time there was little science about how to fight, just basically two guys losing their temper.

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09-14-2017, 02:51 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Golden Gloves

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
Well, anything can happen in a given fight, but I don't see Howe doing that well against the better fighters of the more modern age. Howe's historical rep is largely because of the Fontinato slaughter, just one fight. It became a lot more technical later on with the evolution of the "goon" - guys who were in the league specifically and ONLY BECAUSE they were good at fighting. In Howe's time there was little science about how to fight, just basically two guys losing their temper.
From Howe's era and before, a fair number of the NHLers had boxed amateur in the Golden Gloves.

Pre Howe you had Lionel Conacher - winner of a number of boxing championships. Muzz Patrick was the 1934 Canadian amateur heavy weight boxing champion - later beat Eddie Shore decesively in a fight.

Red Kelly boxed Golden Gloves. On the fifties Canadiens you had Harvey, both Richards, Don Marshall with boxing backgrounds. Marshall did very well one Saturday night when Ted Lindsay challenged his.

Later hockey fights adopted a sideshow quality.

BTW - Cashman was a "lefty" so he would surprise a few the first time.

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Old
09-15-2017, 09:35 AM
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BobbyAwe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
From Howe's era and before, a fair number of the NHLers had boxed amateur in the Golden Gloves.

Pre Howe you had Lionel Conacher - winner of a number of boxing championships. Muzz Patrick was the 1934 Canadian amateur heavy weight boxing champion - later beat Eddie Shore decesively in a fight.

Red Kelly boxed Golden Gloves. On the fifties Canadiens you had Harvey, both Richards, Don Marshall with boxing backgrounds. Marshall did very well one Saturday night when Ted Lindsay challenged his.

Later hockey fights adopted a sideshow quality.

BTW - Cashman was a "lefty" so he would surprise a few the first time.

There is a "science" to fighting in hockey in the more modern era that is completely different from boxing. Tying up (grabbing the arm/jersey) of the opponent to stop him from hitting you while he is trying to do the same to you. This is a technique that evolved mainly after the six-team league and came to maturity in the 70's and 80's when the role of the "goon" was established. It is a technique which must be learned and mastered by guys who plan to fight at all. Just as various shots and goalie styles have evolved over the years, so has the technique of fighting. Although the era of the "goon" is pretty much over, anyone who does fight tries to utilize this technique.

The reason it evolved is because it usually works better than what a boxer would try (on skates). There are usually no combinations thrown unless your opponent is already defenseless. Mostly it is just throwing the same hand unless you are clever enough to be able to switch up, but you are almost always holding onto the other guy's one arm to keep him tied up. This is the normal style we are used to seeing for the last 40 years or more, but I think much before that fights were generally unsophisticated. Like the technique of boxing itself greatly improved from the days of John. L. Sullivan to Muhammed Ali. The technique improved vastly.


Last edited by BobbyAwe: 09-15-2017 at 09:49 AM.
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Old
09-15-2017, 11:00 AM
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Canadiens1958
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Except......

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Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
There is a "science" to fighting in hockey in the more modern era that is completely different from boxing. Tying up (grabbing the arm/jersey) of the opponent to stop him from hitting you while he is trying to do the same to you. This is a technique that evolved mainly after the six-team league and came to maturity in the 70's and 80's when the role of the "goon" was established. It is a technique which must be learned and mastered by guys who plan to fight at all. Just as various shots and goalie styles have evolved over the years, so has the technique of fighting. Although the era of the "goon" is pretty much over, anyone who does fight tries to utilize this technique.

The reason it evolved is because it usually works better than what a boxer would try (on skates). There are usually no combinations thrown unless your opponent is already defenseless. Mostly it is just throwing the same hand unless you are clever enough to be able to switch up, but you are almost always holding onto the other guy's one arm to keep him tied up. This is the normal style we are used to seeing for the last 40 years or more, but I think much before that fights were generally unsophisticated. Like the technique of boxing itself greatly improved from the days of John. L. Sullivan to Muhammed Ali. The technique improved vastly.
Except when you watch Evander Kane and Milan Lucic. Kane's family has a long history in boxing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evander_Kane

Father owned a gym where Milan Lucic boxed.

Watch Kane in a fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLqpw_uKyds

They hold on to neutralize the dancing but it was a boxing punch that Kane threw, not a hockey punch.

Watch Milan Lucic as a boxer in his younger days:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mP4zpET8jQ

You see the carryover to hockey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KthQD9W1Pnw

Note precision of Lucic's punches, his compact stance and balance, stamina. He does not fly open when throwing a punch.

Into the sixties boxing was part of school, cadets and community center activities in Canada. The hockey goons arrived later. Most never trained as boxers so they learned to survive.

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Old
09-15-2017, 02:29 PM
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double5son10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogie Goldthorpe View Post
Provided the refs didn't intervene, Gillies would have dismantled Messier. Mess was mean, but not a great fighter.

Some other prime matchups...

Rypien vs. Jonathan

Probert vs. Gillies

Boogaard vs. Chara

Tocchet vs O'Reilly

Semenko vs. Schultz
How about Dave Brown vs. Derek Boogaard?

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09-15-2017, 03:45 PM
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Roy vs. Hasek

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09-15-2017, 03:48 PM
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seventieslord
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Did we ever see Domi vs. Probert?
not much, only like 10 times.

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09-15-2017, 06:09 PM
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Neely/Iginla would have been a classic. I think Neely was just a little bit stronger. Did Iginla have much in terms of knockout power?


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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
Roy vs. Hasek
We did get the Fuhr/Roy money fight between Buffalo and Montreal in 1993. Fuhr took him off his feet with a side headlock and held him until he stopped squirming.

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09-15-2017, 06:14 PM
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Rypien vs Stock/Jonathan would be great.

The only knock on Rypien is the guys he fought weren't nearly as tough (for the most part) as the guys Stock and Jonathan did.

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09-15-2017, 06:16 PM
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Howe vs. Lindros, a bloody draw
Chara vs. Lindros, quick fight that ends in a draw because of Charas wrestling
Probert vs. Lindros, Probert on a KO in the second half of the fight.
Robinson vs. Lindros, Robinson easily.

Ray vs. O'Reilly, with the tie down rule, O'Reilly without a doubt in my mind

Messier vs. Gillies, Gillies takes this or Messier manages to hold on for a draw.

Jonathan vs. Domi, I think Jonathan was technically better than Domi. So Stan wins this narrowly.

Neely vs. Iginla, draw.

Howe vs. Cashman, Howe wins on on power.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for fight I want to see?

Chris Pronger vs anyone who can actually fight. Its amazing how little this guy actually fought compared to his style. Biggest spot picker in NHL history. Toughest opponents he ever fought was basically Barch, Old man Chelios and Old man Buchberger.

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09-16-2017, 11:05 AM
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"The best fighter in the history of hockey was Bobby Orr. Nobody had better leverage
on his skates or faster hands, and he couldve licked anybody, if he'd wanted to".....
Johnny Pie McKenzie


So there ya go, and I agree.... key being "if he'd wanted to".

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09-17-2017, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
By the way, just looking things up but did Mario really go 10 years from 1987 (Bob Gould) to 1997 (Aki Berg) without a fight? Surprised.
You'd have to probably have to be pretty confident to throw down with a player like lemieux

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09-17-2017, 04:21 PM
  #23
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Pronger vs Robinson

Lindros vs Bertuzzi

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09-17-2017, 04:30 PM
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Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Howe vs. Lindros, a bloody draw
Chara vs. Lindros, quick fight that ends in a draw because of Charas wrestling
Probert vs. Lindros, Probert on a KO in the second half of the fight.
Robinson vs. Lindros, Robinson easily.

Ray vs. O'Reilly, with the tie down rule, O'Reilly without a doubt in my mind

Messier vs. Gillies, Gillies takes this or Messier manages to hold on for a draw.

Jonathan vs. Domi, I think Jonathan was technically better than Domi. So Stan wins this narrowly.

Neely vs. Iginla, draw.

Howe vs. Cashman, Howe wins on on power.
Not bad. Why does Robinson win against Lindros "easily" in your mind? I think it would be awfully close, if anything maybe an advantage for Lindros. Remember when an older Lindros kicked to the curb a younger Joe Thornton? Not many times can a player actually manage to make the other one change his game. I honestly think Thornton became more dependent on playmaking after this and less on goal scoring and driving to the net. He fought less after this too. But he was 6'4", and he could throw them, so it wasn't as if Lindros was fighting a chump. Robinson doesn't have the size advantage over Lindros and with Lindros he was big and he usually went on the offensive pretty quick.

Quote:
As for fight I want to see?

Chris Pronger vs anyone who can actually fight. Its amazing how little this guy actually fought compared to his style. Biggest spot picker in NHL history. Toughest opponents he ever fought was basically Barch, Old man Chelios and Old man Buchberger.
He took out Barnaby rather well at one point. He did lack some big heavyweights though. Not saying he couldn't compete, because I think he could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
"The best fighter in the history of hockey was Bobby Orr. Nobody had better leverage
on his skates or faster hands, and he couldve licked anybody, if he'd wanted to".....
Johnny Pie McKenzie


So there ya go, and I agree.... key being "if he'd wanted to".
I thought of Orr too, he didn't back down from anyone, so there's that. Can I throw another name out there of underrated fighters? Darryl Sittler. Not a heavyweight, but surprisingly held his own. Mike Richards too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrinos View Post
Pronger vs Robinson

Lindros vs Bertuzzi
Robinson.

Lindros. I think Lindros clearly wins this against Bertuzzi. Robinson has his hands full a bit more because Pronger is 6'6", but I think he was a better fighter so he takes him.

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Old
09-17-2017, 04:35 PM
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Big Phil
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How about Clark against the field? He had that one loss against Probert, just once, and that is all I can see on tape to be honest. He killed Cam Neely once. Never thought to hesitate against McSorely either.

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