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Does Matthews hit 40 goals again this season (2017-2018) ?

View Poll Results: Does Matthews hit 40 goals?
Yes 131 40.18%
No 195 59.82%
Voters: 326. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-13-2017, 06:01 AM
  #101
Ib4n3z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lomiller1 View Post
Something incorrect explained clearly is just clearly incorrect. How many shots you get is not part of defensive play, end of story. It doesn't matter how many different ways you try to explain it, it's still wrong.

I'll go a step further here. If Matthews does continue to neglect the defensive responsibilities of his position in order to crash the net and score more goals, it will help him get paid a lot more but the Leafs will never advance beyond a middle of the pack team. If he's willing to sacrifice some of those goals in order to play a defense first game like other cup winning 2-way centers the Leafs have a shot to be a very good team (if they can find a #1D)
That's some funny ****! Good one.

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Old
09-13-2017, 08:13 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by TDK88 View Post
1) Matthews' goal scoring (as a teenage D+1 rookie) >>>>>>>> Kopitar/Toews (in their D+2 rookie years) & Bergeron (in his D+1 rookie year).
These players could all score a lot more if they were deep in the zone as much as Matthews is. They leave those goals on the table in order to take a safer defensive position. Look how many cups these players have won in recent years? Matthews playing that was is not a negative people, itís how you win cups without a Crosby or McDavid on your team.

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Old
09-13-2017, 08:18 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by lomiller1 View Post
These players could all score a lot more if they were deep in the zone as much as Matthews is. They leave those goals on the table in order to take a safer defensive position. Look how many cups these players have won in recent years? Matthews playing that was is not a negative people, it’s how you win cups without a Crosby or McDavid on your team.
Matthews really needs to start playing on the perimeter like Laine and Eichel, everyone knows that's where the Selke winners play from.

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Old
09-13-2017, 08:33 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by leafsfan1234 View Post
Matthews really needs to start playing on the perimeter like Laine and Eichel, everyone knows that's where the Selke winners play from.
yep.

if only matthews would be a more perimeter player, instead of a lazy cherry picker in the high danger zones.

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Old
09-13-2017, 08:37 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by lomiller1 View Post
These players could all score a lot more if they were deep in the zone as much as Matthews is. They leave those goals on the table in order to take a safer defensive position. Look how many cups these players have won in recent years? Matthews playing that was is not a negative people, itís how you win cups without a Crosby or McDavid on your team.
Why is purposely not scoring goals so you can transition easier to defense a good thing? When the puck is in the other net, defense is literally the last thing you need to worry about.

Matthews can play defensive hockey in the neutral zone and his own end and he can do it at a high level. It's pretty ridiculous to say he should be playing defensively in the offensive end too

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Old
09-13-2017, 08:37 AM
  #106
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Wait a second. Are people really arguing that Matthews driving the net and scoring in close is somehow bad quality? It's not like he's hanging on the blueline like Bure did to fish for breakaways. He's dictating the play and executing one of the fundamental aspects in hockey on elite level, taking the play to in front of the net.

If anything, it's a positive trait in him, not negative.

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Old
09-13-2017, 09:17 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by WhiskeyYourTheDevils View Post
Coin flip for me. Voted no, but I'd expect him to finish off at 0.45+ GPG rate. But a lot has to go right to score 40 goals, including staying healthy. History would also suggest that it's very difficult to build upon elite rookie seasons, and teams will begin to game plan around him more.

That said, if things go right for him, he could break 45+.
And you would know first hand after seeing the likes of Johnny Hockey and Monahan regress after their rookie seasons...

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Old
09-13-2017, 09:25 AM
  #108
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I'll say he scores in the 35-38 range. So it will be close, and quite possible he can do it, but it's just my opinion that he comes up a bit short. Pretty darn hard to score 40 these days, and I think it might be expecting a bit too much for a teenager to do it in back-to-back years as an 18 then 19 year old (or 19 and 20 years old -- whatever. He's a late birthday, so that complicates it a bit on what age you want to peg these seasons as). Who knows though; he's a special talent and has a natural knack for scoring goals. We shall see.

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Old
09-13-2017, 09:27 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by WhiskeyYourTheDevils View Post
Coin flip for me. Voted no, but I'd expect him to finish off at 0.45+ GPG rate. But a lot has to go right to score 40 goals, including staying healthy. History would also suggest that it's very difficult to build upon elite rookie seasons, and teams will begin to game plan around him more.

That said, if things go right for him, he could break 45+.
How did the best defensive team in the league gameplanning him go in the playoffs? He scored goals at a higher rate

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Old
09-13-2017, 09:30 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BetterOffWithFedorov View Post
How did the best defensive team in the league gameplanning him go in the playoffs? He scored goals at a higher rate
To be fair, it's such a small sample size that we can't really draw anything conclusive from it. But it's reassuring at least.

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Old
09-13-2017, 09:33 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BetterOffWithFedorov View Post
How did the best defensive team in the league gameplanning him go in the playoffs? He scored goals at a higher rate
Matthews appears to produce his best against the best which is truly remarkable, atleast against caps and most 1st liners, not quite true to bigger samples such as his prodiction against divisions but still incredible (for now atleast).


To previous posts.

Also if you have a center with a scoring touch lile matthews you want him deep in the ozone and have a winger be the first forward back...untill matthews is back, strips the puck and its time for offence again.


Last edited by Narow: 09-13-2017 at 09:40 AM.
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Old
09-13-2017, 09:34 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Plural View Post
To be fair, it's such a small sample size that we can't really draw anything conclusive from it. But it's reassuring at least.
Yeah I wouldn't call it proof of anything, but I do think there's a case to be made that Matthews will be fine. Elite players like Matthews, Laine, McDavid, Crosby, etc. all have tendencies that everyone is aware of but they're still too good to stop

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Old
09-13-2017, 09:53 AM
  #113
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absolutely. kid is a monster and an offensive genius. shouldn't be too tough for him to rack up another 40 after already playing a season in the NHL.

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09-13-2017, 10:18 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Johnny Steps View Post
And you would know first hand after seeing the likes of Johnny Hockey and Monahan regress after their rookie seasons...
Did Monahan have an elite rookie season?

I know guys like:
Mackinnon
RNH
Skinner
Ekblad
Yakupov
Stone
Forsberg
Panarin

All had very good rookie seasons and struggled to build upon them.

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Old
09-13-2017, 10:22 AM
  #115
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Yes, why not. Probably around 40+40 is my prediction.

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Old
09-13-2017, 10:53 AM
  #116
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I am actually really impressed with this thread. People are allowed to say no, but there is actual reasoning and very little baseless bashing in doing so. Refreshing read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyYourTheDevils View Post
Did Monahan have an elite rookie season?

I know guys like:
Mackinnon
RNH
Skinner
Ekblad
Yakupov
Stone
Forsberg
Panarin

All had very good rookie seasons and struggled to build upon them.
To be fair, none of those players on the same level as Matthews, and all can be explained rather easily as to how their situation was different.

Mackinnon - Played WING with two guys who had career years, then moved to C and never put up the same totals. Matthews is already a center and had rookie linemates.

RNH - His underlying stats were all unsustainable. Not the case with Matthews.

Skinner - Injury problems caughtup with him. This can happen to literally anyone.

Ekblad - First season was with a legit #1 D, and then he was thrown to the wolves while also dealing with concussions. Also, different position.

Yakupov - Breakout year was a shortened season. Guys like Larkin have played at elite levels and faded down the stretch before. Matthews got better as the year went on.

Stone - Not even close to the same level player..

Forsberg - Not even close to the same level player..

Panarin - His rookie year he was 25, given almost all offensive zone starts, and one of the NHL's best playmakers... Not even close to the same situation.

The bottom line is, there are a handful of players in the history of the sport to have the season Matthews just did. He is special, if you don't watch him you won't get it, but it will become clearer after this year. The only argument to be made is if his career is derailed by injuries, which like I said can happen to anyone even McDavid.

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Old
09-13-2017, 10:56 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lomiller1 View Post
Something incorrect explained clearly is just clearly incorrect. How many shots you get is not part of defensive play, end of story. It doesn't matter how many different ways you try to explain it, it's still wrong.

I'll go a step further here. If Matthews does continue to neglect the defensive responsibilities of his position in order to crash the net and score more goals, it will help him get paid a lot more but the Leafs will never advance beyond a middle of the pack team. If he's willing to sacrifice some of those goals in order to play a defense first game like other cup winning 2-way centers the Leafs have a shot to be a very good team (if they can find a #1D)

I'm going to single out this poster as having no idea what they are talking about.

This is quite honestly, one of the worst takes I've seen and quite clearly this posted did not watch much of Matthews at all last season.

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Old
09-13-2017, 11:22 AM
  #118
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Nope. Low 30s.

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09-13-2017, 11:48 AM
  #119
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Nope. Low 30s.
We're talking about Matthews goal totals here, not how many points Montreal's #1 C gets this year.

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Old
09-13-2017, 11:53 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Plural View Post
Wait a second. Are people really arguing that Matthews driving the net and scoring in close is somehow bad quality? It's not like he's hanging on the blueline like Bure did to fish for breakaways. He's dictating the play and executing one of the fundamental aspects in hockey on elite level, taking the play to in front of the net.

If anything, it's a positive trait in him, not negative.
You know one side is losing an argument when it resorts to insane logic

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Old
09-13-2017, 12:11 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by lomiller1 View Post
These players could all score a lot more if they were deep in the zone as much as Matthews is. They leave those goals on the table in order to take a safer defensive position. Look how many cups these players have won in recent years? Matthews playing that was is not a negative people, itís how you win cups without a Crosby or McDavid on your team.
Those players had nowhere close to Matthews' scoring and shooting skills. The advanced and basic metrics demonstrate this. Matthews is already arguably the best in the league at shooting and scoring from in close given his league leading ixGF.

Those guys were never ever capable of competing for a Rocket but sure, please keep telling us how each of those guys could have ended up 2nd in the league in goal scoring if they really wanted to

In regards to your completely ridiculous argument regarding playing close to the opposition's net "not how you win cups"...

Repeat Cup Champs Pens' Shot Location:

Leafs Shot Location:


Crosby Shot Location:


Matthews Shot Location:


So Babcock should tell Matthews to not shoot from in close when he's arguably already better than Crosby at that because shooting from in close is not a winning formula for teams like the Pens?

Makes perfect sense


Last edited by TDK88: 09-13-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Old
09-13-2017, 12:17 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamiccolo View Post
I am actually really impressed with this thread. People are allowed to say no, but there is actual reasoning and very little baseless bashing in doing so. Refreshing read.



To be fair, none of those players on the same level as Matthews, and all can be explained rather easily as to how their situation was different.

Mackinnon - Played WING with two guys who had career years, then moved to C and never put up the same totals. Matthews is already a center and had rookie linemates.

RNH - His underlying stats were all unsustainable. Not the case with Matthews.

Skinner - Injury problems caughtup with him. This can happen to literally anyone.

Ekblad - First season was with a legit #1 D, and then he was thrown to the wolves while also dealing with concussions. Also, different position.

Yakupov - Breakout year was a shortened season. Guys like Larkin have played at elite levels and faded down the stretch before. Matthews got better as the year went on.

Stone - Not even close to the same level player..

Forsberg - Not even close to the same level player..

Panarin - His rookie year he was 25, given almost all offensive zone starts, and one of the NHL's best playmakers... Not even close to the same situation.

The bottom line is, there are a handful of players in the history of the sport to have the season Matthews just did. He is special, if you don't watch him you won't get it, but it will become clearer after this year. The only argument to be made is if his career is derailed by injuries, which like I said can happen to anyone even McDavid.
He's in the special tier of players. With Eichel and Laine.

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Old
09-13-2017, 12:23 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyYourTheDevils View Post
Did Monahan have an elite rookie season?

I know guys like:
Mackinnon
RNH
Skinner
Ekblad
Yakupov
Stone
Forsberg
Panarin

All had very good rookie seasons and struggled to build upon them.
None of those guys except a 24 year old Panarin (5 years older than Matthews) had rookie seasons remotely close to Matthews' relative to the league when they played.

Really surprising how hard that is to grasp...

Matthews' closest rookie comparable is Malkin who was D+3 at the time. The only D+1 rookies better than Matthews in the last 20+ years are Crosby and McDavid.

A natural bump in TOI and normalization towards elite level 5v5 oISH%s screams "increased production" this year, so if you (or anyone else) truly expect/want regression, then you'll probably be in for a bad time. Just fyi.

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Old
09-13-2017, 12:26 PM
  #124
Brock Radunske
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so if not he wont even get 30?

lemme guess Laine fan? one of these guys has an unsustainable shooting % and it isnt matthews
Even more than that. He's one of the illustrious Finnish Five

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Old
09-13-2017, 01:01 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamiccolo View Post
I am actually really impressed with this thread. People are allowed to say no, but there is actual reasoning and very little baseless bashing in doing so. Refreshing read.



To be fair, none of those players on the same level as Matthews, and all can be explained rather easily as to how their situation was different.

Mackinnon - Played WING with two guys who had career years, then moved to C and never put up the same totals. Matthews is already a center and had rookie linemates.

RNH - His underlying stats were all unsustainable. Not the case with Matthews.

Skinner - Injury problems caughtup with him. This can happen to literally anyone.

Ekblad - First season was with a legit #1 D, and then he was thrown to the wolves while also dealing with concussions. Also, different position.

Yakupov - Breakout year was a shortened season. Guys like Larkin have played at elite levels and faded down the stretch before. Matthews got better as the year went on.

Stone - Not even close to the same level player..

Forsberg - Not even close to the same level player..

Panarin - His rookie year he was 25, given almost all offensive zone starts, and one of the NHL's best playmakers... Not even close to the same situation.

The bottom line is, there are a handful of players in the history of the sport to have the season Matthews just did. He is special, if you don't watch him you won't get it, but it will become clearer after this year. The only argument to be made is if his career is derailed by injuries, which like I said can happen to anyone even McDavid.
Including Matthews.

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