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Old
09-13-2017, 09:27 AM
  #201
lamp9post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
The same excuses for Galchenyuk not playing C pretty much all apply to Drouin. The only thing Drouin has that Galchenyuk doesn't is elite skating and edge work. Galchenyuk has been mishandled since day 1 and Drouin a guy who has rarely played C in the NHL is somehow more proven and a sure bet at C?

The main point being , you can't really learn C from the wing this kind of statement is ridiculous (made by our GM). In the end we have to give Galchenyuk a full season at C and then react accordingly , if he falters it's on him if he succeeds all these C acquisition talks suddenly disappear.

I would be ok with a preseason top 9 of :

Pacioretty - Drouin - Hudon (Pacioretty/Drouin duo seems inevitable)
Lekhonen - Galchenyuk - Gallagher (Galchenyuk has proven chemistry with both Lekhs and Gally)
Byron - Danault - Shaw (This line did very well last year)

Danault has no business in the top 6 , as offense tends to die on his stick. He is a very good 3C which I want part of the team just not in a critical top 6 role.
Galchenyuk and Drouin are different players with different skill sets. Just because one didn't work out at C doesn't automatically mean the other won't have success at the position. It seems that you're simultaneously arguing that Galchenyuk needs more chances (he's been given plenty) but Drouin doesn't deserve a chance because we've already tried and failed with Galchenyuk.

And no one is saying that Drouin is more proven or a sure bet at C.

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09-13-2017, 09:33 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
Galchenyuk and Drouin are different players with different skill sets. Just because one didn't work out at C doesn't automatically mean the other won't have success at the position. It seems that you're simultaneously arguing that Galchenyuk needs more chances (he's been given plenty) but Drouin doesn't deserve a chance because we've already tried and failed with Galchenyuk.

And no one is saying that Drouin is more proven or a sure bet at C.
They both are terrible and never played center seriously before.

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Old
09-13-2017, 09:49 AM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
The same excuses for Galchenyuk not playing C pretty much all apply to Drouin. The only thing Drouin has that Galchenyuk doesn't is elite skating and edge work. Galchenyuk has been mishandled since day 1 and Drouin a guy who has rarely played C in the NHL is somehow more proven and a sure bet at C?
The last time Chucky played at center before making the NHL was when he was 16 years old! This whole, he's a center is just bs.

Drouin played a whole season at center when he was 18 years old in Halifax.

Chucky didn't get a serious crack at center in the NHL till he turned 21 years old, Drouin is 22.

Sure Chucky has more experience at center in the NHL right now because he's been playing at center the last 2 years but if you're talking about experience before getting the chance to play at center in the NHL Drouin has more experience.

No one said Drouin is a sure bet at center, we all hope he'll be able to do the job.

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Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
The main point being , you can't really learn C from the wing this kind of statement is ridiculous (made by our GM). In the end we have to give Galchenyuk a full season at C and then react accordingly , if he falters it's on him if he succeeds all these C acquisition talks suddenly disappear.
He's been playing at center the last 2 years, stop already.

And as I already said, I think he'll get another chance at center sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
I would be ok with a preseason top 9 of :

Pacioretty - Drouin - Hudon (Pacioretty/Drouin duo seems inevitable)
Lekhonen - Galchenyuk - Gallagher (Galchenyuk has proven chemistry with both Lekhs and Gally)
Byron - Danault - Shaw (This line did very well last year)

Danault has no business in the top 6 , as offense tends to die on his stick. He is a very good 3C which I want part of the team just not in a critical top 6 role.
I don't see Julien going with two defensively questionable centers at the same time.

And I don't agree on Danault, he's more than a 3C IMO and he'll prove it this season. There's offense in this guy, he's not an offensive black hole.

He's not very skilled but he has a decent shot and can pass the puck, where he excels is at everything else.

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Old
09-13-2017, 09:58 AM
  #204
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Buy low, sell high.
This is a great opportunity to get Duchene.

Duchene, Galchenyuk and Drouin were all drafted at #3 overall. They are all not great at C and they play LW.

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Old
09-13-2017, 10:02 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
Aside from his shot, this is basically a list of Galchenyuk's biggest weaknesses. He's a terrible possession player particularly against strong competition, ineffective at gaining the zone because he can't generate speed through the neutral zone, and is probably the worst forechecker on the team. If Duchene is actually worse on these points we should stay far away, but somehow I doubt that's the case.
Uh, never said he was a good possession player, just that he's better than Duchene.

As for gaining the zone, he's magnificent at it. Duchene is very good too, but Galchenyuk is better at passing in the zone, whereas Duchene shoots more.

I'll retract my comment on Duchene being worse on dump-ins, they're both very good at it and Duchene is actually better. I was wrong on that count.

The point is though, they both have similar impacts on the game, and it doesn't make much sense to make that trade when both have similar strengths and weaknesses. Especially with the decline Duchene has experienced over the last 4 years. If Montreal moves Galchenyuk in a deal for Duchene, they're pretty much locked in. They will be completely be unable to fill the holes the team has, the flaws that MB has either failed at filling or created. They wont have the tradeable assets or the long term cap-flexibility to fix those problems. Duchene might move the needle a little for Montreal, assuming they don't give up more in the deal, but he won't actually improve Montreal enough to take them to the next level.

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09-13-2017, 10:04 AM
  #206
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Johnson should watch some Habs games or something.
Is this a joke?

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09-13-2017, 10:21 AM
  #207
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Let's hope the child has matured a little over the summer.

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09-13-2017, 10:26 AM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
Uh, never said he was a good possession player, just that he's better than Duchene.

As for gaining the zone, he's magnificent at it. Duchene is very good too, but Galchenyuk is better at passing in the zone, whereas Duchene shoots more.

I'll retract my comment on Duchene being worse on dump-ins, they're both very good at it and Duchene is actually better. I was wrong on that count.

The point is though, they both have similar impacts on the game, and it doesn't make much sense to make that trade when both have similar strengths and weaknesses. Especially with the decline Duchene has experienced over the last 4 years. If Montreal moves Galchenyuk in a deal for Duchene, they're pretty much locked in. They will be completely be unable to fill the holes the team has, the flaws that MB has either failed at filling or created. They wont have the tradeable assets or the long term cap-flexibility to fix those problems. Duchene might move the needle a little for Montreal, assuming they don't give up more in the deal, but he won't actually improve Montreal enough to take them to the next level.
Over the last two years would be more precise. Especially the last one.

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Old
09-13-2017, 10:28 AM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
Buy low, sell high.
This is a great opportunity to get Duchene.

Duchene, Galchenyuk and Drouin were all drafted at #3 overall. They are all not great at C and they play LW.
And how exactly do you get Duchene, especially since the Avs are said to what a top dman in return?

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Old
09-13-2017, 10:57 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
The last time Chucky played at center before making the NHL was when he was 16 years old! This whole, he's a center is just bs.
Conveniently left out that he missed nearly his entire 17 year old season as if that's his fault.
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
Drouin played a whole season at center when he was 18 years old in Halifax.
Oh because playing C in junior translates directly to being a C in the NHL (the exact thing you oppose with Galchenyuk or are you saying you'd be fine with Chucky at C if he wasn't injured and played C in his draft year?)

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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
Chucky didn't get a serious crack at center in the NHL till he turned 21 years old, Drouin is 22.
Besides the fact that Galchenyuk produced his best stats as a C , he has shown improvement year over year as a C and as a player. The only exception being last year where he faced an injury and returned with a team heading towards another complete collapse (or do we not want to mention that we had 4 unique goal scorers for over a month of hockey?).

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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
Sure Chucky has more experience at center in the NHL right now because he's been playing at center the last 2 years but if you're talking about experience before getting the chance to play at center in the NHL Drouin has more experience.
Better to take points off of Galchenyuk for getting to play center (and making the NHL at a much younger age than Drouin)...

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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
No one said Drouin is a sure bet at center, we all hope he'll be able to do the job.

He's been playing at center the last 2 years, stop already.

And as I already said, I think he'll get another chance at center sooner or later.
Yeah and I am saying the sample size of 80+ games outweighs the sample from when he came back from injury.

In fact over a period of one year before his injury , Galchenyuk was our best point producer :

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggr...,goals,assists

How anyone can say he didn't thrive as a C once DD was traded is beyond me. It clearly demonstrates that he was being held back by incompetence.

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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
I don't see Julien going with two defensively questionable centers at the same time.

And I don't agree on Danault, he's more than a 3C IMO and he'll prove it this season. There's offense in this guy, he's not an offensive black hole.

He's not very skilled but he has a decent shot and can pass the puck, where he excels is at everything else.
These are fair points and like I mentioned Danault is a great 3C on a good team , if he is your number 2 you aren't making it very far (imo). I can't really read much into a 24 year old who played with our 2 best wingers and had the most ice-time (but not much PP time) and produced 40 points. It's very decent production and I'm sure he hasn't peaked but I just don't see him as a good offensive resource as part of the top 6.

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Old
09-13-2017, 10:59 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
Uh, never said he was a good possession player, just that he's better than Duchene.

As for gaining the zone, he's magnificent at it. Duchene is very good too, but Galchenyuk is better at passing in the zone, whereas Duchene shoots more.

I'll retract my comment on Duchene being worse on dump-ins, they're both very good at it and Duchene is actually better. I was wrong on that count.

The point is though, they both have similar impacts on the game, and it doesn't make much sense to make that trade when both have similar strengths and weaknesses. Especially with the decline Duchene has experienced over the last 4 years. If Montreal moves Galchenyuk in a deal for Duchene, they're pretty much locked in. They will be completely be unable to fill the holes the team has, the flaws that MB has either failed at filling or created. They wont have the tradeable assets or the long term cap-flexibility to fix those problems. Duchene might move the needle a little for Montreal, assuming they don't give up more in the deal, but he won't actually improve Montreal enough to take them to the next level.
I guess I just disagree completely with your opinion that Galchenyuk is "magnificent" at zone entries and that he's "very good" at retrieving dump-ins. Particularly the latter. Galchenyuk is awful at retrieving dump-ins and loose pucks in general. I've seen him actually slow down and allow the defenseman to get the puck first to avoid being hit. He certainly doesn't look to retrieve pucks with the same zeal as the likes of Gallagher, Lehkonen, Byron, Shaw, Mitchell, DLR, Danault and he lacks the anticipation of guys like Pacioretty and Plekanec. It is an aspect of his game that is glaringly weak and it negatively impacts his possession game.

That said, I agree with your last paragraph. I would very much rather acquire Duchene and keep Galchenyuk than trade one for the other.

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Old
09-13-2017, 11:50 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I guess I just disagree completely with your opinion that Galchenyuk is "magnificent" at zone entries and that he's "very good" at retrieving dump-ins. Particularly the latter. Galchenyuk is awful at retrieving dump-ins and loose pucks in general. I've seen him actually slow down and allow the defenseman to get the puck first to avoid being hit. He certainly doesn't look to retrieve pucks with the same zeal as the likes of Gallagher, Lehkonen, Byron, Shaw, Mitchell, DLR, Danault and he lacks the anticipation of guys like Pacioretty and Plekanec. It is an aspect of his game that is glaringly weak and it negatively impacts his possession game.

That said, I agree with your last paragraph. I would very much rather acquire Duchene and keep Galchenyuk than trade one for the other.
Um, its not an opinion, I presented data to back it up. He is good at it.

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09-13-2017, 11:54 AM
  #213
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I expect him to be traded for a 1LD.

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09-13-2017, 11:56 AM
  #214
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I expect him to be traded for a 1LD.
It's gonna be a big mistake by Montreal Canadiens trading Alex Galchenyuk...

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09-13-2017, 12:05 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by KevSkillz4 View Post
It's gonna be a big mistake by Montreal Canadiens trading Alex Galchenyuk...
It depends what he is traded for, if we can use him to acquire a legit centre then it isn't a mistake.

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Old
09-13-2017, 12:07 PM
  #216
King In Glory
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
Um, its not an opinion, I presented data to back it up. He is good at it.
But...What about the eye test?

Everybody knows that the subjective eye test of one poster trumps any data!


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09-13-2017, 12:21 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
Conveniently left out that he missed nearly his entire 17 year old season as if that's his fault.
What? How the fact that he missed an entire season changes what I said?

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Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
Oh because playing C in junior translates directly to being a C in the NHL (the exact thing you oppose with Galchenyuk or are you saying you'd be fine with Chucky at C if he wasn't injured and played C in his draft year?)
No, it doesn't, and no one around here guaranteed that Drouin will succeed at center.

I've seen Chucky at center though, I want to see Drouin being tried there.

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Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
Besides the fact that Galchenyuk produced his best stats as a C , he has shown improvement year over year as a C and as a player. The only exception being last year where he faced an injury and returned with a team heading towards another complete collapse (or do we not want to mention that we had 4 unique goal scorers for over a month of hockey?).
He's a mess defensively, what else do you want me to tell you?

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Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
Better to take points off of Galchenyuk for getting to play center (and making the NHL at a much younger age than Drouin)...
So because Chucky made the NHL earlier and got the chance to play at center he's automatically better than Drouin at center? Solid logic.

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Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
Yeah and I am saying the sample size of 80+ games outweighs the sample from when he came back from injury.

In fact over a period of one year before his injury , Galchenyuk was our best point producer :

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggr...,goals,assists

How anyone can say he didn't thrive as a C once DD was traded is beyond me. It clearly demonstrates that he was being held back by incompetence.
The reason he's not playing at center has nothing to do with his offensive production.
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Originally Posted by King In Glory View Post
These are fair points and like I mentioned Danault is a great 3C on a good team , if he is your number 2 you aren't making it very far (imo). I can't really read much into a 24 year old who played with our 2 best wingers and had the most ice-time (but not much PP time) and produced 40 points. It's very decent production and I'm sure he hasn't peaked but I just don't see him as a good offensive resource as part of the top 6.
We'll see.

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Old
09-13-2017, 12:57 PM
  #218
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I expect him to be traded for a 1LD.
If that happens then our top 6 would be ****ing putrid.

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09-13-2017, 12:58 PM
  #219
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Um, its not an opinion, I presented data to back it up. He is good at it.
I must have missed that. Where was it posted, earlier in this thread?

Edit: I see now that you have linked to a graph showing Galchenyuk's zone entries. Didn't realize that was a link - I thought it was underlined for emphasis. I still can't find any data that shows he's good at puck recovery.


Last edited by lamp9post: 09-13-2017 at 01:05 PM.
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Old
09-13-2017, 02:12 PM
  #220
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If that happens then our top 6 would be ****ing putrid.
It's not hard to see what will happen. Or what I think will happen.

Bergevin has given multiple answers on who will play LD beside Weber but one answer on what position Galchenyuk will play: not centre.

Give it a few games. Doesn't matter how Galchenyuk plays. If nobody locks that 1LD spot, Bergevin will need to make a move for a guy. And he will use Chuck to do it. He will say, "We are strong on the wing. We were no longer confident in Alex at centre. This is good for him. You need to give up good players to get good players back. We needed a partner for Shea."

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Old
09-13-2017, 02:21 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I must have missed that. Where was it posted, earlier in this thread?

Edit: I see now that you have linked to a graph showing Galchenyuk's zone entries. Didn't realize that was a link - I thought it was underlined for emphasis. I still can't find any data that shows he's good at puck recovery.
Sorry, that's my fault. Here:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/5S...play_count=yes

Duchene was marginally better, but they're both in the small group of forwards in the NHL that actually recovered more than half the dump-ins they competed for.

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09-13-2017, 02:23 PM
  #222
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I would just try Drouin, Chucky and Danault at C for a few games and see how it goes. We're pretty deep on the wing (at least on LW). I realize Plek is still here but if we want to increase our chances at getting stronger down the middle then this would be it. You would still have Gallagher, Patch, Lehkonnen and Hemsy/Byron in the top 6 which isnt the greatest but it would be more than ok if the center line does good.

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09-13-2017, 02:27 PM
  #223
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I expect him to be traded for a 1LD.
Gonna be hard to trade him for 1LD unless he improves drastically. He was already offered to some teams this summer and they were not interested.

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09-13-2017, 02:29 PM
  #224
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Let's hope the child has matured a little over the summer.
His trade request/not showing up to games happened 2 years ago...

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09-13-2017, 02:32 PM
  #225
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Gonna be hard to trade him for 1LD unless he improves drastically. He was already offered to some teams this summer and they were not interested.
There's a difference between a team not being interested in a player, and them not willing to pay the price to acquire that player.

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