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The True Football (Not American)/Futbol/Soccer Thread: Part VI

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Old
09-12-2017, 06:24 PM
  #451
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I've argued about Ozil too many times with casual fans to re-hash it all over again. If you disagree that's fine. You're wrong, but that's your prerogative. Not trying to be a dick just not in the mood to beat this particular dead horse.

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09-12-2017, 06:31 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
I've argued about Ozil too many times with casual fans to re-hash it all over again. If you disagree that's fine. You're wrong, but that's your prerogative. Not trying to be a dick just not in the mood to beat this particular dead horse.
I certainly am not a casual. I am living in Germany afterall and have seen the guy his whole career and watched every important NT game we played...


I would even say that casuals usually like Ozil a lot more (he got overhyped like crazy early on and that has stuck in the mind of the media and casuals) than the real informed fans who get to see that guy float around and be invisible everytime the going gets rough...


But yeah. Mesut is a very polarizing player to say the least...

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09-12-2017, 06:40 PM
  #453
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Remind me to find you some articles that explain why that opinion of Ozil's importance to the NT...which is the popular opinion now-a-days and has been since his real days...is entirely mis-guided & comes from an antiquated footballing philosophy that doesn't appreciate the subtlety of his genius and how much more clunky this team becomes without him; despite having some strong alternatives through the years. There's a few that make my points very eloquently & clearly, that I think I have bookmarked at home.

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09-12-2017, 08:22 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Remind me to find you some articles that explain why that opinion of Ozil's importance to the NT...which is the popular opinion now-a-days and has been since his real days...is entirely mis-guided & comes from an antiquated footballing philosophy that doesn't appreciate the subtlety of his genius and how much more clunky this team becomes without him; despite having some strong alternatives through the years. There's a few that make my points very eloquently & clearly, that I think I have bookmarked at home.

Feel free to do so. I am pretty sure I have read a few of these but they never really convinced me.

Ozil is a very talented player with some very unique skills. No doubt about that.

But he simply is not a player you want on your team when push comes to shove. No article will convince me otherwise. I have seen it plenty of times myself and even Jogi agreed with me when he dropped him during the WC 2014 run for a few games IIRC (or was it 2012?),

IMO his peak performance for the NT was in 2010. And he still underwhelmed me in the game that really counted against Spain..


He also has the problem that his ideal position (as a classic 10) is somewhat outdated and he is not nearly as effective on the wing..


I don't think the NT benefits from his presence at all at this point. If not for his name and Jogi connection and Reus damn injuries, he should and probably would have been pushed out of the starting 11 a long time ago..

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09-12-2017, 11:55 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
I've argued about Ozil too many times with casual fans to re-hash it all over again. If you disagree that's fine. You're wrong, but that's your prerogative. Not trying to be a dick just not in the mood to beat this particular dead horse.
I don't know why you would want to defend Ozil so methodically, when Deutschland as a country produces better and way more exciting players. If I cheered for Deutschland, I would consider him as a secondary piece as Joe said in the long run. A player who is talented, but is pretty much useless when the ball isn't on his feet. I am also shocked how you, with your superior football knowledge (with the casual fan remark) cannot see a guy who doesn't have the consistent drive or physical toughness. Or maybe you don't watch Arsenal games, I can't speak for you. Or maybe you have to defend every single German player whenever they're getting bashed. Again, I can't speak for you.

I would have a much better opinion of Ozil if he was useless without the ball, but actually had the desire to keep it when he gets it. The single most frustrating aspect is he constantly loses balls because a player will come at him directly and use his body to shield him off the ball. It happens every 9 out of 10 times if he doesn't pass it. He's an underrated dribbler, but he doesn't have the elusiveness to make up for his lack of desire, so he turns out to be an enigma in the end.

Except in my FM17 career where Mesut won the Ballon d'Or and World Player of the Year. But it is also a career where Man United is able to smash Real Madrid 6-0 on agg. and Spurs beat the current PSG squad in the CL.

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09-14-2017, 01:22 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
Feel free to do so. I am pretty sure I have read a few of these but they never really convinced me.

Ozil is a very talented player with some very unique skills. No doubt about that.

But he simply is not a player you want on your team when push comes to shove. No article will convince me otherwise. I have seen it plenty of times myself and even Jogi agreed with me when he dropped him during the WC 2014 run for a few games IIRC (or was it 2012?),

IMO his peak performance for the NT was in 2010. And he still underwhelmed me in the game that really counted against Spain..

He also has the problem that his ideal position (as a classic 10) is somewhat outdated and he is not nearly as effective on the wing..
I don't feel that strongly about Ozil as a player but some of this amazes me.
Ozil was Germany's leading scorer in WC2014 qualification campaign.
He scored in the 119th minute for Germany to go through beyond the round of 16.
He played 120 minutes in the final before being subbed.
Some stats:
Özil led the tournament in passes completed in the final-third (171), was ranked joint-second in chances created (17), behind only Lionel Messi (23), and ranked second overall in possessions won in the final-third (6).

And this last bit is all while *playing out of of position* on the wing, where he's apparantly less effective according to you?

And he was chosen among the best players at the 2010 and 2012 tournaments as well.


How in the world did you get the perception that he's been considered unwanted since before 2012? He was 23 in 2012!!!

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Old
09-14-2017, 01:49 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
I would have a much better opinion of Ozil if he was useless without the ball, but actually had the desire to keep it when he gets it. The single most frustrating aspect is he constantly loses balls because a player will come at him directly and use his body to shield him off the ball. It happens every 9 out of 10 times if he doesn't pass it.
He has won 46 % of his duels in the Premier League though. May not be his particular strength, but also not that very weak.

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09-15-2017, 12:52 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by El_Loco_Avs View Post
I don't feel that strongly about Ozil as a player but some of this amazes me.
Ozil was Germany's leading scorer in WC2014 qualification campaign.
He scored in the 119th minute for Germany to go through beyond the round of 16.
He played 120 minutes in the final before being subbed.
Some stats:
Özil led the tournament in passes completed in the final-third (171), was ranked joint-second in chances created (17), behind only Lionel Messi (23), and ranked second overall in possessions won in the final-third (6).

And this last bit is all while *playing out of of position* on the wing, where he's apparantly less effective according to you?

And he was chosen among the best players at the 2010 and 2012 tournaments as well.


How in the world did you get the perception that he's been considered unwanted since before 2012? He was 23 in 2012!!!
Because it's popular to hate on Mesut since he doesn't throw around crunching tackles, score screamers for long range or go on marauding runs.

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09-15-2017, 05:00 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by El_Loco_Avs View Post
I don't feel that strongly about Ozil as a player but some of this amazes me.
Ozil was Germany's leading scorer in WC2014 qualification campaign.
He scored in the 119th minute for Germany to go through beyond the round of 16.
He played 120 minutes in the final before being subbed.
Some stats:
Özil led the tournament in passes completed in the final-third (171), was ranked joint-second in chances created (17), behind only Lionel Messi (23), and ranked second overall in possessions won in the final-third (6).

And this last bit is all while *playing out of of position* on the wing, where he's apparantly less effective according to you?

And he was chosen among the best players at the 2010 and 2012 tournaments as well.


How in the world did you get the perception that he's been considered unwanted since before 2012? He was 23 in 2012!!!
Probably because he left Real in 2013. Not that that says much since plenty of talented players fail to adapt to that club but that's probably where that perception comes from

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09-15-2017, 07:02 PM
  #460
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Probably because he left Real in 2013. Not that that says much since plenty of talented players fail to adapt to that club but that's probably where that perception comes from
Ozil put up dominant #s with Real and was let go to make space for their new galactic signing. He most certainly didn't fail in Madrid

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09-15-2017, 08:58 PM
  #461
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Ozil put up dominant #s with Real and was let go to make space for their new galactic signing. He most certainly didn't fail in Madrid
Sure

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09-15-2017, 09:06 PM
  #462
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Yeah to me Ozil is the quintessential player that does good against easier competition or when the team is already doing well.

But he is not the one you want out there when you are facing adversity. That is when he ducks down and pulls his invisibility act.

He is not one to lift your teammates up or turn the game around on his own usually. Thats just not who he is.

I hate that characterization usually and think it is stupid but he to me is the epitome of being "not a big game player"....

When the going gets tough and the stakes get really high, I don't want Ozil on my team...

That is why I'd like to see him benched on my NT for good...


There is a reason why everyone and their mother wanted to get their hands on Suarez this offseason and why no one seemed to be particularly interested in Ozil..

He just is not the player a top club wants if they want to win stuff..

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09-15-2017, 09:10 PM
  #463
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Ozil put up dominant #s with Real and was let go to make space for their new galactic signing. He most certainly didn't fail in Madrid
Agreed, he didn't fail at Real Madrid, but was it because of his talent or the talent of the players around him? That's the question we need to answer. Additionally, sure he didn't fail, but at the same time RM staff thought he was the most expendable to sell so that says something...

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09-16-2017, 05:11 AM
  #464
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He didn't leave to make space at Real, he left because he was pushed out by better players like Modric. Oezil is a paper tiger, a guy who beats up on lesser competition, a guy who is a quitter, a guy who only plays well for Germany because there he is surrounded by class that makes it easier for him to do his thing because he has others doing heavy lifting, he is a complimentary player whose shortcomings you can tolerate on a world class team, but not the player you want as a central building block like he is asked to be at Arsenal.

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09-16-2017, 10:11 AM
  #465
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Arsenal are such a clusterf*** that you have to be a brilliant soloist to thrive there. A great conductor is wasted on a team so incompetently run. That's why the goal scorer Lexi n his solo runs wins so much acclaim there despite being so inconsistent and wasteful. But Mesut was easily the NT's best player from 2010-2014 and he does a lot of the heavy lifting for us to this day.

There's a reason the NT is always so much more toothless and our possession so much less fruitful when Mesut abandons the pitch.

And this paper tiger non-sense has to stop, if Ozil is useless against strong opposition so is every other German on the NT.


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09-16-2017, 10:14 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Arsenal are such a clusterf*** that you have to be a brilliant soloist to thrive there. A great conductor is wasted on a team so incompetently run. That's why the goal scorer Lexi n his solo runs wins so much acclaim there. But Mesut was easily the NT's best player from 2010-2014 and he does a lot of the heavy lifting for us to this day.

There's a reason the NT is always so much more toothless and our possession so much less fruitful when Mesut abandons the pitch.

And this paper tiger non-sense has to stop, if Ozil is useless against strong opposition so is every other German on the NT.
Yeah I disagree.

I usually can't wait for him to get subbed off in important matches...

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09-16-2017, 01:10 PM
  #467
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CGF you didn't happen to catch Stuttgart today? I'm trying to watch Bundesliga but man they play way too early.

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09-16-2017, 01:11 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Arsenal are such a clusterf*** that you have to be a brilliant soloist to thrive there. A great conductor is wasted on a team so incompetently run. That's why the goal scorer Lexi n his solo runs wins so much acclaim there despite being so inconsistent and wasteful. But Mesut was easily the NT's best player from 2010-2014 and he does a lot of the heavy lifting for us to this day.

There's a reason the NT is always so much more toothless and our possession so much less fruitful when Mesut abandons the pitch.

And this paper tiger non-sense has to stop, if Ozil is useless against strong opposition so is every other German on the NT.


Boom problem solved

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09-16-2017, 03:10 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Arsenal are such a clusterf*** that you have to be a brilliant soloist to thrive there. A great conductor is wasted on a team so incompetently run. That's why the goal scorer Lexi n his solo runs wins so much acclaim there despite being so inconsistent and wasteful. But Mesut was easily the NT's best player from 2010-2014 and he does a lot of the heavy lifting for us to this day.

There's a reason the NT is always so much more toothless and our possession so much less fruitful when Mesut abandons the pitch.

And this paper tiger non-sense has to stop, if Ozil is useless against strong opposition so is every other German on the NT.
Alexis Sanchez is one of the best players in the world and doesn't seem phased by strong opponents.

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09-16-2017, 04:39 PM
  #470
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CGF you didn't happen to catch Stuttgart today? I'm trying to watch Bundesliga but man they play way too early.
Nah, I was only able to start watching half way through the BMG-RB game. I'll send you a link that should have replays of all of stuttgart's matches.

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09-16-2017, 04:59 PM
  #471
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He didn't leave to make space at Real, he left because he was pushed out by better players like Modric. Oezil is a paper tiger, a guy who beats up on lesser competition, a guy who is a quitter, a guy who only plays well for Germany because there he is surrounded by class that makes it easier for him to do his thing because he has others doing heavy lifting, he is a complimentary player whose shortcomings you can tolerate on a world class team, but not the player you want as a central building block like he is asked to be at Arsenal.
It wasn't Modric, it was Bale who he was pushed out for and Bale is most overrated "semi-superstar" player in the world.

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Boom problem solved
Hey D2M, question about the World Cup team. I don't know how Argentina is shaping up, but what is the situation with Icardi? Will he make it even though Messi, Pastore, Dybala, and Aguero should all have guaranteed spots over him? I ask because I've been watching a lot of Serie A games lately and he has absolutely outperformed Dybala. Besides Asensio, Lemar, and maybe Mbappe, he's been the most impressive player I've watched thus far.

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Alexis Sanchez is one of the best players in the world and doesn't seem phased by strong opponents.
I think that is what a difference in worth rate proves IMHO. Maybe it's unfair to call Ozil a lazy player because he does try. However, his personality is just that of someone who dislikes the physical game, tracking back, or providing some testosterone in 50/50 balls. Ozil also hates striking the ball on goal even though he has a wonderful left-foot. He's all the qualities you don't really want even though he has the talent.

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09-16-2017, 07:21 PM
  #472
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Anyone played PES 18? What a game. Best gameplay ever made for a football game.


Last edited by TruePowerSlave: 09-16-2017 at 07:26 PM.
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09-16-2017, 08:06 PM
  #473
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Anyone played PES 18? What a game. Best gameplay ever made for a football game.
Yea I'm very much in the pes bandwagon

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09-16-2017, 08:13 PM
  #474
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Nah, I was only able to start watching half way through the BMG-RB game. I'll send you a link that should have replays of all of stuttgart's matches.
You beauty thx for the link.

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Hey D2M, question about the World Cup team. I don't know how Argentina is shaping up, but what is the situation with Icardi? Will he make it even though Messi, Pastore, Dybala, and Aguero should all have guaranteed spots over him? I ask because I've been watching a lot of Serie A games lately and he has absolutely outperformed Dybala. Besides Asensio, Lemar, and maybe Mbappe, he's been the most impressive player I've watched thus far.
Icardi is the out an out striker for Argentina right now based on the last few call ups. He's ahead of Higuain and Kun.

So, far this year in the Serie A nobody touches Dybala. He's started 2 games and came on as a sub, joint top scorer with Icardi but less minutes. Of course that doesn't tell half the story with Dybala who like Messi drives the offence like nobody in that league.

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Anyone played PES 18? What a game. Best gameplay ever made for a football game.
Don't judge a game based on demos.

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09-16-2017, 08:36 PM
  #475
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Don't judge a game based on demos.
Who said I was? Had the full game since Thursday.

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