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Shootout question...(Refs help?)

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Old
04-20-2008, 10:34 AM
  #1
Pangolin
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Shootout question...(Refs help?)

Situation:
shooter came in, made a shot and was almost on top of the goalie...the goalie was pretty deep in the net and the puck was under him somewhere.
The ref blew the whistle and said no goal, then when the goalie got up, the puck's in the net and so the ref changed his mind and said it's a goal.

Mistake should be that the ref ALREADY blew the whistle and said no goal, he should have checked before he made his decision. And he then went back on his decision after the goalie got up (although in this case, the puck was in the net, you could argue that it's because he moved).

What rule in the IIHF rule book can we consult to overturn the decision (it cost us the game). Any help would be great...thanks.

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04-20-2008, 12:54 PM
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MikeD
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None, that would over turn. Your course of action would be outlined in the IIHF Bylaws, which provide specific proceedure for these types of disputes. You are not likely to see a game result changed through this process.

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04-20-2008, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
Situation:
shooter came in, made a shot and was almost on top of the goalie...the goalie was pretty deep in the net and the puck was under him somewhere.
The ref blew the whistle and said no goal, then when the goalie got up, the puck's in the net and so the ref changed his mind and said it's a goal.

Mistake should be that the ref ALREADY blew the whistle and said no goal, he should have checked before he made his decision. And he then went back on his decision after the goalie got up (although in this case, the puck was in the net, you could argue that it's because he moved).

What rule in the IIHF rule book can we consult to overturn the decision (it cost us the game). Any help would be great...thanks.
As a goalie coach for 15 years, I would tell my goalies to always drag the puck out of the area with their pad as they stand up. Never leave it up to the linesman or Referee to change the call. As a goalie, it is the goalies responsability to make sure that the puck doesn't go in the net or at least pull it out if it goes in undetected.

I have never heard of a referee changing his call after he make the initial call. But referee's do have the final say. In the future, the goalie might stop and think about what he or she is doing. Just wait for the referee to go down the ice before the goalie stand up. Besides, it's the job of the linesman to retrieve the puck, not the referee.

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04-20-2008, 06:02 PM
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MikeD
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in many situations, the association that is providing the officials will also have an evaluation form available. contact your officiating body for this form.

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04-20-2008, 06:55 PM
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Thanks a lot for the help.
I think our captain's looking into putting in an official complain just to see what happens...

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04-20-2008, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
in many situations, the association that is providing the officials will also have an evaluation form available. contact your officiating body for this form.
Your association lets teams evaluate officials? If I understand that correctly, that is not right.


As for the situation, the referee should have waited until the goaltender stood up to reveal the puck's location before signaling. However, if the puck was under the goaltender, in the net as a result of the shot, he made the right call by allowing the goal. In the end, getting it right is what it is all about, whether or not the procedure was correct.

In my experience dealing with such issues, when a team starts complaining about the procedures the officials use, they know deep down the call made in the end was right.

My question for Pangolin, is if you're in Canada, why are you asking about the IIHF Rulebook? Even if you play recreational hockey, I've never heard of a rec league not using the Hockey Canada rulebook.

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Originally Posted by Headcoach View Post
Just wait for the referee to go down the ice before the goalie stand up. Besides, it's the job of the linesman to retrieve the puck, not the referee.
Speaking as an official, if I'm the referee, I'm not moving until I see where the puck is, whether or not I **** up my procedure.

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04-20-2008, 07:49 PM
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I'm actually not in Canada...I just have a horrible habit of not changing my locations...

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04-20-2008, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
Your association lets teams evaluate officials? If I understand that correctly, that is not right.

As for the situation, the referee should have waited until the goaltender stood up to reveal the puck's location before signaling. However, if the puck was under the goaltender, in the net as a result of the shot, he made the right call by allowing the goal. In the end, getting it right is what it is all about, whether or not the procedure was correct
Of course our association allows the Coaching staff or any spectator to file an evaluation form regarding any on-ice or off-ice official. It is a prerogative extended to all those teams with in the WNYAHL. We may even submit video and digital images as part of a statement. I dont see how that would be considered wrong. The form provides for input on many aspects of the crews performance. These crews do not operate under anonymity. They are required to sign the gamesheet as well as provide their ID number. This allows the WNYAHL organization to gather an over view of the crews, proffesionalism, appearance, etc etc. Statistically, there are as many positive evaluation forms submitted as negative.

While teams may not request specific crews or individuals, they MAY refuse any specific Official. Its a system that has its checks and balances. Granted, its not perfect and we still have too many officials who choose to unduly influence games but at least its kept minimal.

Your second statement would be based on some assumption. In the shoot out situation once the forward progress of the puck has been stopped, the play is dead. Should the puck hit a goalie, move away from the goal line, deflect off a piece of the goalies gear, reversing back to the goal line and into the net....the correct call is no goal. The ref only need see the pucks forward motion stopped. Where the puck is when the goalie stands means nothing.


Last edited by MikeD: 04-20-2008 at 08:20 PM.
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04-20-2008, 09:10 PM
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Of course our association allows the Coaching staff or any spectator to file an evaluation form regarding any on-ice or off-ice official. It is a prerogative extended to all those teams with in the WNYAHL. We may even submit video and digital images as part of a statement. I dont see how that would be considered wrong. The form provides for input on many aspects of the crews performance. These crews do not operate under anonymity. They are required to sign the gamesheet as well as provide their ID number. This allows the WNYAHL organization to gather an over view of the crews, proffesionalism, appearance, etc etc. Statistically, there are as many positive evaluation forms submitted as negative.

While teams may not request specific crews or individuals, they MAY refuse any specific Official. Its a system that has its checks and balances. Granted, its not perfect and we still have too many officials who choose to unduly influence games but at least its kept minimal.
We don't operate anonymously either. We sign the game sheets (though we don't have ID numbers). That said, our officials are assigned and supervised by those who run the officials' association. Teams have no right to have any say whatsoever as to who officiates their games.

I don't see how anybody without certification as an official should be able to write an official evaluation on an official's performance. I would not officiate in such a system.

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Your second statement would be based on some assumption. In the shoot out situation once the forward progress of the puck has been stopped, the play is dead. Should the puck hit a goalie, move away from the goal line, deflect off a piece of the goalies gear, reversing back to the goal line and into the net....the correct call is no goal.

I would check your rulebook for situations on penalty shots. I have Hockey Canada's rulebook open right now, and one of the situations states...

The puck hits the goal post, then hits the goaltender and goes into the goal. - Goal is allowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
The ref only need see the pucks forward motion stopped. Where the puck is when the goalie stands means nothing.
Once the goaltender has made contact with the puck, the player may not touch it again as he has lost possession and control. However, if the goaltender slides into the net after playing the shot, where the goaltender ends up with the puck under him is where the puck's forward progress was stopped. If the goaltender ends up in the net and the puck is under him across the goal line, it's a goal.

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04-21-2008, 12:53 AM
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backhand shelf solves the problem as well

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04-21-2008, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
Situation:
shooter came in, made a shot and was almost on top of the goalie...the goalie was pretty deep in the net and the puck was under him somewhere.
The ref blew the whistle and said no goal, then when the goalie got up, the puck's in the net and so the ref changed his mind and said it's a goal.

Mistake should be that the ref ALREADY blew the whistle and said no goal, he should have checked before he made his decision. And he then went back on his decision after the goalie got up (although in this case, the puck was in the net, you could argue that it's because he moved).

What rule in the IIHF rule book can we consult to overturn the decision (it cost us the game). Any help would be great...thanks.
The ref that did that screwed up but I doubt there's any course of action you can take that will change the outcome. Why the ref would change his call is beyond me, it only makes him look bad and leaves him open to a sh#t-storm of abuse by the team defending the shot. It's one thing if he called no goal and his aprtner saw something different and the call was reversed, but to reverse your own call on a play where the goalie could have very easily moved the puck over the line after the shot is asking for trouble. Be sure of your call or don't make it.

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04-21-2008, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes View Post



Speaking as an official, if I'm the referee, I'm not moving until I see where the puck is, whether or not I **** up my procedure.
Thank god, someone who is actually doing the right thing!
I just wish there were more ref's like you. Then we wouldn't have to worry about inconsistency and gray areas all the time.

I see a lot of ref's that make the call and head to the time keeper box to tell the the time keeper who scored and who assisted, unconcerned about if the puck is underneath the goalie or not.

Plus, I have seen bad calls where the ref is on the line and the puck goes in and out fast then a speeding bullet and the ref has waved it off.

I guess you really have to have a thick skin to do that job...I wouldn't want to do your job, I don't care how much money they pay you. I know, I'm running a Beer League south of Chicago and it's costing me a pretty penny to pay for ref's

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04-21-2008, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
We don't operate anonymously either. We sign the game sheets (though we don't have ID numbers). That said, our officials are assigned and supervised by those who run the officials' association. Teams have no right to have any say whatsoever as to who officiates their games.

I don't see how anybody without certification as an official should be able to write an official evaluation on an official's performance. I would not officiate in such a system.




I would check your rulebook for situations on penalty shots. I have Hockey Canada's rulebook open right now, and one of the situations states...

The puck hits the goal post, then hits the goaltender and goes into the goal. - Goal is allowed.



Once the goaltender has made contact with the puck, the player may not touch it again as he has lost possession and control. However, if the goaltender slides into the net after playing the shot, where the goaltender ends up with the puck under him is where the puck's forward progress was stopped. If the goaltender ends up in the net and the puck is under him across the goal line, it's a goal.
That is CHA rules. IIHF and USA have a slightly different flavor. Also, your readying stipulations based on th penalty shot situation and not the shoot-out procedure. Regardless, it doesnt matter. It is interesting how that in the case of a penalty shot or the shoot out situation that the puck striking the goalie is considered losing possession but in regulation time it is not. With USA hockey and hte SHOOT OUT as far as stopping the forward progress of the puck... Once the player has touched the puck AT ANY TIME that its(Puck) travel is in a direction AWAY from the goal line....forward progress has been stopped. No goal may be awarded once that has happened.

as for not officiating in a system that allows Non-officials to submit an evaluation....thats your choice. Those who do so here, and have for decades, find that it is an outstanding tool for all involved. Its all about improving the game experience for the kids. I dont understand why you would be so afraid of this kind of situation. Typically, should a ref receive several submissions of a negative nature, The officials above in their association would come rink side and observe the official in question. As I said, teams may not choose who Refs their games. What they can do is choose WHO WILL NOT. There is a big difference.

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04-21-2008, 09:10 PM
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The crappiest thing that happened is I had a 1-1 and the refs were somewhere at the far blueline, no where near the play. I took a backhand shot that hit the goalie's pad and went in. I couldn't see it in the back of the net though so I thought the goalie saved it. The goalie got up and it wasn't there, I looked in the back of the net and it was deep in the net. The ref came in took the puck out of the net and said "No goal, I didn't see it."

It should've been counted as a goal, no?

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04-21-2008, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dangelo37 View Post
The crappiest thing that happened is I had a 1-1 and the refs were somewhere at the far blueline, no where near the play. I took a backhand shot that hit the goalie's pad and went in. I couldn't see it in the back of the net though so I thought the goalie saved it. The goalie got up and it wasn't there, I looked in the back of the net and it was deep in the net. The ref came in took the puck out of the net and said "No goal, I didn't see it."

It should've been counted as a goal, no?
It does in my book. If it in the net, I think it's a goal, reguardless if the ref sees it or not. Maybe we should go back to having goal judges with the light. That will help solve that problem.

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04-21-2008, 10:22 PM
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The ref that did that screwed up but I doubt there's any course of action you can take that will change the outcome. Why the ref would change his call is beyond me, it only makes him look bad and leaves him open to a sh#t-storm of abuse by the team defending the shot. It's one thing if he called no goal and his aprtner saw something different and the call was reversed, but to reverse your own call on a play where the goalie could have very easily moved the puck over the line after the shot is asking for trouble. Be sure of your call or don't make it.
If the goaltender's momentum moves the puck over the line after he stops the shot, it's still a goal as the puck's forward progress was not stopped.

In this situation, the referee is guaranteed to take heat when he is too early giving the wave-off. He has two choices...

1. Make the right call and take heat from the goaltender's team.
2. Stick with your first signal and take heat from the shooter's team.

Any referee with integrity will choose #1.



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That is CHA rules. IIHF and USA have a slightly different flavor. Also, your readying stipulations based on th penalty shot situation and not the shoot-out procedure.
Under HC (not CHA ) rules, shootouts are simply a series of penalty shots used to break a tie. There is no difference between a penalty shot awarded during a game and one taken during a shootout. The same rules are applied.

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as for not officiating in a system that allows Non-officials to submit an evaluation....thats your choice. Those who do so here, and have for decades, find that it is an outstanding tool for all involved. Its all about improving the game experience for the kids. I dont understand why you would be so afraid of this kind of situation. Typically, should a ref receive several submissions of a negative nature, The officials above in their association would come rink side and observe the official in question. As I said, teams may not choose who Refs their games. What they can do is choose WHO WILL NOT. There is a big difference.
Coaches should never be able to have any say in who gets assigned to their games. Even with the ability only to refuse officials, you're indirectly choosing who will work your games. I was on a roster for a provincial championship this season, and two teams complained that one referee was calling too many penalties, and the tournament supervisor (not the officiating supervisor) pulled him from the rest of his games. The teams pretty much had the say in him not working anymore games. The only thing that stopped every other official at the tournament from walking out was a guaranteed indefinite suspension for us.

Canada isn't completely without similar systems. In elite hockey (Midget AAA, Jr.B, Jr.A) in some provinces, leagues and provincial branches have an evaluation form that coaches must send in after every game. That is acceptable to me because it's not something a coach has an option to do when he's just pissed off after a game that didn't go his way. He will get fined if he doesn't send it in after a game. These evaluations are not seen by the officials, and if there is not a legitimate complaint, the officiating supervisors don't even see them because there is no reason. If something is brought to an officiating supervisor, it is his choice as to whether or not it is brought to the official's attention.

Anything below a level where coaches must be trained to certain abilities and understanding of the game (I would say Midget AAA) should not be able to submit such evaluations. Coaches at those levels have rule knowledge as part of their certification tests. I know because I took such a course. I see a lot of what minor hockey coaches submit for complaints, and if they could pick who doesn't work their games, there would be nobody left because there is a complaint submitted nearly every day, and about 8 out of 10 of them have no foundation whatsoever. The rule knowledge by minor hockey coaches is severely lacking in my area.

Spectators and parents should never have the ability to submit evaluations on officials. Going by my experience in minor hockey, there is no reason to even discuss this.

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04-21-2008, 11:02 PM
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Randall Ritchey
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As a goalie, you do whatever to keep the puck out of the net, if it goes in, its almost native to try and to stop the ref from seeing it. My friends are refs and when they miss a call, they get pissed. But it happens sometimes. You just have to keep your eyes open.

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04-22-2008, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes View Post

Anything below a level where coaches must be trained to certain abilities and understanding of the game (I would say Midget AAA) should not be able to submit such evaluations. Coaches at those levels have rule knowledge as part of their certification tests. I know because I took such a course. I see a lot of what minor hockey coaches submit for complaints, and if they could pick who doesn't work their games, there would be nobody left because there is a complaint submitted nearly every day, and about 8 out of 10 of them have no foundation whatsoever. The rule knowledge by minor hockey coaches is severely lacking in my area.

Spectators and parents should never have the ability to submit evaluations on officials. Going by my experience in minor hockey, there is no reason to even discuss this.
Boy you are opening up a can of worms here. If I could put my two cents into this.

The problem that we have in the country is not necessarily with the referee system, it just that the system is incapable of policing themselves. As a hockey director, I have to police my coaches. But, because the referee system in this country has the so called final say, they feel that they are correct all the time, kind of like a dictatorship, they turn a blind eye to referees that are incapable of making the proper call. The normal excuses that I hear all the time is...I didn't see it.

Maybe director's should pay on a call system! As a referee, you are under my employment. I am the one shelling out the cash...at $45.00 per ref per hour. And if the referee system can not police their ref's then maybe the director's of the program should.

Maybe associations should have the right to train their own ref's.

Example: In phoenix the ref's are...well, I will not go there. However, if the head ref of the refereeing program would spot check his ref's and do his own evaluation on his ref's then maybe we would have qualified ref's to actually call games!

It's a two way street! Oh and by the way, I have the rule book on my toilet tank and I know the rules forward and backwards. When I see a ref, not making the proper call for intentional off sides, drives be insane. Yes I know that the rules have changes about "Touch up." But, when it's intentional and the proper call is not make, then I wonder who is watching the ref's. If they can't make the most simplest call, they should be in the stands with the parents watch the game.

The last thing I want to say is this. Parents come to the game to watch there kids play hockey. Parents do not come to the game to watch the ref's make the call. This is not a game for the ref's, it's for the kids. But I have seen so many ref's come to the game to see how many calls they can make in a game. The reason why I know this is because I have had linesman come into my office to complain. Generally my comment is...take it up with you head ref. Generally the response is...we have!

So maybe it is time for director's to really start taking control of their programs. Maybe it time for director's to stop paying ref's that are incompetent. Why not! I fire my coaches when they are incompetent and as far as I am concern, a referee can make or break a director's program.

Maybe it would be advisable for the head ref to sit in my office when I have a linch mob in my office. At what point do you say enough is enough? Do you let that ref continue to keep screwing up your association? Or, do you just turn my blind eye to it and tell my parents....too bad! I think not.

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04-22-2008, 05:14 PM
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Kudos to that tourney director. Either the ref should be able to call a game correctly with out unduely influencing the outcome or NOT work. The officiating crew are the only individuals in youth hockey that are paid to be there. As with any other job, Do it well or get fired.


Stripes, you fail to understand. When the puck strikes the goalie and moves in a direction AWAY from the goal line, forward momentum is stopped. The play is DEAD from that point on, Regardless of the goalies movement, the puck stiking anotehr object or hitting the ice and then reversing direction back toward the goal line. Its like talking to a brick wwall, for christs sake. Because your a REF, you are correct. None of us Mortals could possibly understand....

This is why the eval forms are needed. Because with many Refs, in their infinite wisdom, fail to hear the words.....

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04-22-2008, 11:03 PM
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Maybe associations should have the right to train their own ref's.
If you run a league that us not sanctioned by your national governing body, go right ahead. If your league is sanctioned, there cannot be inconsistencies in training, at least in terms of how clinics are instructed and rules.

If there is a leadership problem at the top, then it is what it is. That scenario is more common than you think. I've been a certified official for 10 years, and honestly, I would not allow anybody to train me other than somebody with more/higher calibre experience than I do. That's not meant to offend coaches, managers, league execs, etc. The fact is that, for example, a coach is going to train me how to officiate how he wants to see me officiate as a coach. I want to be trained how to officiate like an official, and leagues/associations out there should want their officials to officiate like officials, not with the mentality of a player, coach, etc.


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It's a two way street! Oh and by the way, I have the rule book on my toilet tank and I know the rules forward and backwards. When I see a ref, not making the proper call for intentional off sides, drives be insane. Yes I know that the rules have changes about "Touch up." But, when it's intentional and the proper call is not make, then I wonder who is watching the ref's. If they can't make the most simplest call, they should be in the stands with the parents watch the game.
No offence, but intentional offside isn't the most cut-and-dry call in the book. I understand your point, but I don't agree with the example you used.

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The last thing I want to say is this. Parents come to the game to watch there kids play hockey. Parents do not come to the game to watch the ref's make the call. This is not a game for the ref's, it's for the kids. But I have seen so many ref's come to the game to see how many calls they can make in a game. The reason why I know this is because I have had linesman come into my office to complain. Generally my comment is...take it up with you head ref. Generally the response is...we have!
I'm not going to get into the leadership problem because I don't see it first-hand in your area, but I hear the "not here to watch the refs" line all the time here. In amateur hockey, you get amateur officials, and when you're talking kids hockey, up here you're pretty much never getting anybody over 15-16 years old officiating. It is a level of hockey we train our young guys with. Some do have bad attitudes, and we try to weed them out. However, many more such complaints are unfounded than are founded.

Hockey Canada has a new standard of officiating, much like the NHL. When I get coaches complaining, the first thing I ask them is when the last time they showed their team the Hockey Canada-issued DVD of how the game is supposed to be called. I have yet to meet a coach who has that DVD, which is widely available, and free to obtain.

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Originally Posted by Headcoach View Post
Maybe it would be advisable for the head ref to sit in my office when I have a linch mob in my office. At what point do you say enough is enough? Do you let that ref continue to keep screwing up your association? Or, do you just turn my blind eye to it and tell my parents....too bad! I think not.
Perhaps some coaches would like to see my inbox with the abundance of ridiculous drivel from parents and coaches nearly every day during the season. It might put things into perspective for them. That's not to say that there are not any legitimate issues brought up. There are such issues on occasion. However, reality is that if we tell an official his services are no longer required, we probably don't have anybody to replace him with.

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Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
Kudos to that tourney director. Either the ref should be able to call a game correctly with out unduely influencing the outcome or NOT work. The officiating crew are the only individuals in youth hockey that are paid to be there. As with any other job, Do it well or get fired.
Speaking from what we make up here, it's not a job. My job pays my bills, and officiating does nothing even close to that. We pay for our certification at the beginning of every season (the higher level you are, the more you pay), and unless you work 5 games a week, you're not going to make up that cost and the costs of your equipment, over the course of the season.


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Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
Stripes, you fail to understand. When the puck strikes the goalie and moves in a direction AWAY from the goal line, forward momentum is stopped. The play is DEAD from that point on, Regardless of the goalies movement, the puck stiking anotehr object or hitting the ice and then reversing direction back toward the goal line. Its like talking to a brick wwall, for christs sake. Because your a REF, you are correct. None of us Mortals could possibly understand....
If that is a specific situation in the USA Hockey rulebook, fine. I've never told somebody under another governing body what their rules are. Your description does not fit one of Hockey Canada's shootout situations however. In Canada, if the puck hits the post, comes back and hits the goaltender, then goes into the net, it is a goal. It is in the Hockey Canada casebook on Page 93. Don't try to tell me what my rules are.

In the situation described to start this thread, it makes no mention of the puck going in the opposite direction of the goal line. If the goaltender plays the shot, takes it in and slides into the net, the puck does not travel in the opposite direction of the goal line.

"shooter came in, made a shot and was almost on top of the goalie...the goalie was pretty deep in the net and the puck was under him somewhere."

According to this description, if that puck is in the net, it is a goal.

But whatever, you're just going to tell me that I don't hear what you're saying.

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04-27-2008, 08:08 AM
  #21
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We pay for our certification at the beginning of every season (the higher level you are, the more you pay), and unless you work 5 games a week, you're not going to make up that cost and the costs of your equipment, over the course of the season.
Stripes - So, let say I have a Men's beer league running at my rink and I am using level one ref's. What should I pay them? Is the amount that I pay them on their cerification or what level they are refereeing?

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04-27-2008, 02:42 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Headcoach View Post
Stripes - So, let say I have a Men's beer league running at my rink and I am using level one ref's. What should I pay them? Is the amount that I pay them on their cerification or what level they are refereeing?

Head coach
If your league is sanctioned by USA Hockey, I would seek advice from them as to what the appropriate pay should be. I honestly don't know much about how USA Hockey operates regarding officiating.

Here in Canada, HC determines pay rates for national championships, the provincial branches determine pay rates for provincial championships, and local associations determine pay rates for minor hockey during the season and playoffs. No official earns more money for the same calibre of hockey just because he has a higher level of certification. Pay is all based on the calibre of the game you are working. If you're using the 3-man system, yes, referees get paid more than linesmen. It used to be double for Jr.A in my area actually, but we've seen that discrepancy shrink in recent years.

If your league is not sanctioned by any governing body (like our beer leagues are here), I'm not going to the rink after a full day at work for less than $40/game for adult rec hockey. I say that because the beer leagues are guaranteed abuse for us, and after a long day at work, our buttons are much easier to push. I would rather not deal with it.

The guy who runs our league here claims to scale pay based on your HC certification (if you have it, it's not required for beer league), but we all know he bases it on seniority. IE: One ref here who has been around for 20+ years and no longer has certification makes more than he offered me, yet I have my Level 3, which is the minimum requirement to line junior hockey in Canada. Even the older ref knows that it isn't fair that he gets $35 and I would get $25 if I still did games. We're both taking time out of our evenings to give these guys a game, we should both earn the same dime.

The biggest, and least thought of intangible with beer league (or any rec) hockey is that you're paying for my time as much as you're paying me for the job. I got up at 7:00am this morning to skate a couple unsanctioned high school exhibition games. The games were only an hour each and it was easy hockey. I could have worked the games sleeping. They still paid me $25 per game because they're getting me up at 7:00am on my day off when the season has been over for any sanctioned hockey for over a month.

If you want my advice, it would be not be in a dollar figure. I don't know your league's financial situation. If you use the two-man system for your games, make sure you pay them both the same. Scaling pay by calibre is acceptable. (Using dollars as an example only: $25/game for C hockey, $30/game for B hockey, $35/game for A hockey.)


Last edited by Stripes: 04-27-2008 at 02:47 PM.
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04-27-2008, 06:20 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
If your league is sanctioned by USA Hockey, I would seek advice from them as to what the appropriate pay should be. I honestly don't know much about how USA Hockey operates regarding officiating.

Here in Canada, HC determines pay rates for national championships, the provincial branches determine pay rates for provincial championships, and local associations determine pay rates for minor hockey during the season and playoffs. No official earns more money for the same calibre of hockey just because he has a higher level of certification. Pay is all based on the calibre of the game you are working. If you're using the 3-man system, yes, referees get paid more than linesmen. It used to be double for Jr.A in my area actually, but we've seen that discrepancy shrink in recent years.

If your league is not sanctioned by any governing body (like our beer leagues are here), I'm not going to the rink after a full day at work for less than $40/game for adult rec hockey. I say that because the beer leagues are guaranteed abuse for us, and after a long day at work, our buttons are much easier to push. I would rather not deal with it.

The guy who runs our league here claims to scale pay based on your HC certification (if you have it, it's not required for beer league), but we all know he bases it on seniority. IE: One ref here who has been around for 20+ years and no longer has certification makes more than he offered me, yet I have my Level 3, which is the minimum requirement to line junior hockey in Canada. Even the older ref knows that it isn't fair that he gets $35 and I would get $25 if I still did games. We're both taking time out of our evenings to give these guys a game, we should both earn the same dime.

The biggest, and least thought of intangible with beer league (or any rec) hockey is that you're paying for my time as much as you're paying me for the job. I got up at 7:00am this morning to skate a couple unsanctioned high school exhibition games. The games were only an hour each and it was easy hockey. I could have worked the games sleeping. They still paid me $25 per game because they're getting me up at 7:00am on my day off when the season has been over for any sanctioned hockey for over a month.

If you want my advice, it would be not be in a dollar figure. I don't know your league's financial situation. If you use the two-man system for your games, make sure you pay them both the same. Scaling pay by calibre is acceptable. (Using dollars as an example only: $25/game for C hockey, $30/game for B hockey, $35/game for A hockey.)
Ya, here in the USA all hockey has to be sanctioned do to insurance. This way all players are covered if something Catastrophic happened to them...say break their neck.

As for my beer league, it is sanctioned, and it cost me $45.00 a ref times two and because we live in an area with no ref's. I have to pay that money to level ones. Some of the calls they make are not fit for mites.

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04-27-2008, 11:28 PM
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Hockey Coach,

30-50 dollars a game depending on level of the game not level of official... im sure PIHRA or IOA which ever association in AZ that you use charges you accordingly per league and level of game.

as far as the first post in this thread... its the correct weather or not he originally said no goal. The proper procedure for a close play is to get to the net hard, blow the whistle make no signal and wait for the goalie to move. and see where the puck is, i normally will tell the goaltender to stay put and ill move the net so he can roll off the puck so he cant try to scoot it out of the net... but the real key to his is the referee being in the correct position which unfortunately for the official working your mens league game was not in.

Dont be so hard on the referees.. yeah they are getting paid to be there but if they were not there you would not have a game. these guys go to work just like you guys and are refereeing for the love of the game (or the extra money cause we could all use it.)

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04-28-2008, 09:02 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Headcoach View Post
Ya, here in the USA all hockey has to be sanctioned do to insurance. This way all players are covered if something Catastrophic happened to them...say break their neck.

As for my beer league, it is sanctioned, and it cost me $45.00 a ref times two and because we live in an area with no ref's. I have to pay that money to level ones. Some of the calls they make are not fit for mites.

Head coach

I see more and more statements like yours and have to wonder why it is that there are no refs in your area. Is it because the leagues just terrorize the refs and they figure it's not worth the time and money to get abused like that, or is USAH just doing a crap job of running their ref program? And since you are forced to use Level 1 refs, how badly do you abuse them when they make their calls "not fit for mites"? I'm sure you show them the same respect that they must show you.

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