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Not enough Canadians to win the Cup this year

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Old
04-29-2008, 12:27 PM
  #51
otto bond
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Yeah because it's those Euro goalies that have given up weak goals the last 2 games

Are we having a contest on who can start the stupidest thread?
Call it weak or even midgit goals, but all great goalie have their bad moments. It's "the mental toughness" like one of the boys would say
We will see other games like this from the kid. I just have a feeling they are gonna become less and less with time.
Go Price Go

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04-29-2008, 12:27 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
I"ll eat my shorts and apolgize to everyone if I'm proven wrong but I realize after this last game that this year's Montreal Canadiens do not have enough Canadians to do whatever it takes to win the CUP.

Carbo knows it too, that's why he keeps insisting in putting in Breezy and Dandy despite how bad they are.
You will eat my shorts after Im done eating tacos.

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04-29-2008, 12:35 PM
  #53
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You will eat my shorts after Im done eating tacos.
And please, don't use toilet paper when you are finished

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04-29-2008, 01:07 PM
  #54
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lol
top 10 scorer 4 are canadians!!!
thats so wow!
only 6 european

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04-29-2008, 01:13 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by husamus156 View Post
lol
top 10 scorer 4 are canadians!!!
thats so wow!
only 6 european
The "race" thing is a joke. "European" is not a race, it's a collection of ethnic entities. Nobody is saying they are "racially" incapable of digging in the corners for pucks. That's just stupid. If that were the case, then how come most Russians and Fins play harder than Swedes and Czechs? And how come the newer generations of players play harder than the older ones?

It's a cultural emphasis. This game has improved dramatically since the Euro influence, but they still grow up playing in big rinks where toughness/grit is not as much part of the game. We do need to integrate more North Americans in our lineup, this is no secret, and Gainey has slowly been doing it. We're just not there yet. It's easier to add grit after you have the skill, but we're still finding out how good our skill guys are and how far they are willing to battle. I doubt we'll see these same guys on this team by the time we lift the Cup (unless something changes in a major way this year, or Price turns into a wall).

Pittsburgh has had an easier time of it because their top end skill guys are extremely talented AND are willing to battle. Even Hossa is fighting on the boards. It's easy to add the grit to that. Our top end talent is questionable.

It's easier to score in the regular season. This is a different kind of hockey. We definitely need to toughen up and get more grit.

When Tom Kostopoulos is your best player on the ice, you know you are in trouble.

Gainey is slowly changing this team though, taking us in the direction Pittsburgh went in. Look how tough the Pens are now. They win one-on-one battles everywhere and drive the net.

The skill guys need to be supported with grit. You can't expect the skill guys to score AND dig pucks out all the time, there has to be a balance. I'd prefer to have a team like Detroit, where they choose guys with size AND skill so they are able to withstand playoff hockey. Look at Franzen for example. Why don't we have guys like Franzen? Or Getzlaf? Why?

I think the management looked at their situation in Montreal and decided that the fans would cause a holy uproar if they did a real rebuilding job, so they've decided to build a successful regular season team first, then slowly try to make it into a playoff team. Doesn't look like we're there yet.


Last edited by tinyzombies: 04-29-2008 at 01:28 PM.
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04-29-2008, 01:15 PM
  #56
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Some pretty disgusting stuff comes out of the woodwork after a couple of losses.

Could you bark at it and scare it away?

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04-29-2008, 01:15 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
I"ll eat my shorts and apolgize to everyone if I'm proven wrong but I realize after this last game that this year's Montreal Canadiens do not have enough Canadians to do whatever it takes to win the CUP.

Carbo knows it too, that's why he keeps insisting in putting in Breezy and Dandy despite how bad they are.
Habs don't have a team that is made for the playoffs -- and even in the Boston series I thought about what you are now saying, I think there is at least some truth to your statements, but there is more to it than that.

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04-29-2008, 01:16 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by LilWinger11 View Post
Could you bark at it and scare it away?
Bulis! Bulis! Bulis!

I'm trying

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Old
04-29-2008, 01:28 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post

Are we having a contest on who can start the stupidest thread?

It's the Habs board, that is a daily occurance and this one is right near the top!!

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04-29-2008, 01:39 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by David View Post
You can't tell me that you will try as hard to win that championship as you would for a Stanley Cup. Same difference.
Its not because YOU wouldn't try as hard that all Europeans wouldn't either!!

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04-29-2008, 01:45 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by FunkyHab View Post
Its not because YOU wouldn't try as hard that all Europeans wouldn't either!!
I personally bust my ass off in the playoffs to win my beer league championship... take tons of crosschecks infront of the net... do whatever it takes. Its a personality that takes drive and will to win. Now I don't have any god given talent and thats why I'm playing where I play. However I would bet that most successful NHL players have that same drive to win a championship and be the best no matter what league they play in.

I don't care if its the Stanley Cup or the RSL championship... there is a drive among competitive athletes to be the absolute best no matter what league they are in. There are lots of talented kids out there, the ones who make it to the NHL have the drive to be the best. The Europeans lack of success in the 90s wasn't due to not wanting the Stanley Cup; it was due to their coaching and early development of their games and they weren't very gritty. Even with that some guys, like Federov, Konstantinov, Lidstrom, etc were able to find enough grit to be successful in the 90s playoffs. But the newer coaching techniques have added grit to players from all countries and we are seeing the players coming up now have far more success.


The name of the trophy doesn't matter... its what the trophy represents at the end of the day that makes you strive for it. Being the Best at something, thats what its all about. You could rename the Stanley Cup the Coca-Cola Cup tomorrow and guys would try just as hard to win it. They might make fun of it in comments, the fans might hate it, but once they got on the ice, those guys with the drive to be recognized as the best would step up.


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04-29-2008, 01:48 PM
  #62
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Simply stating this doesn't make it fact. It's a total non sequitur to suggest that Canadian players want to win the Cup more than their Russian or European counterparts, simply because they happen to have been born in Canada.

How are you quantifying their respective desires to win the Cup? Why would Plekanec, the K Bros and Streit be playing in the NHL if their ultimate goal wasn't to win a cup?
Money? Fame? Women?

I am not saying that if you are European, that automatically keeps you from winning the Cup but that the incentive is less since their focus since childhood is more the Olympic Gold and not Stanely Cup.

Even then, everything has to be considered on an individual to individual basis.

And up to this point, (and of course that can change...and that's what I'm hoping for here) on individual basis, the Belarussians brothers and Plekanec have not shown any reason for me to believe that they want to win the Cup more than Olympic gold.

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04-29-2008, 01:50 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I personally bust my ass off in the playoffs to win my beer league championship... take tons of crosschecks infront of the net... do whatever it takes. Its a personality that takes drive and will to win. Now I don't have any god given talent and thats why I'm playing where I play. However I would bet that most successful NHL players have that same drive to win a championship and be the best no matter what league they play in.

I don't care if its the Stanley Cup or the RSL championship... there is a drive among competitive athletes to be the absolute best no matter what league they are in. There are lots of talented kids out there, the ones who make it to the NHL have the drive to be the best. The Europeans lack of success in the 90s wasn't due to not wanting the Stanley Cup; it was due to their coaching and early development of their games and they weren't very gritty. Even with that some guys, like Federov, Konstantinov, Lidstrom, etc were able to find enough grit to be successful in the 90s playoffs. But the newer coaching techniques have added grit to players from all countries and we are seeing the players coming up now have far more success.


The name of the trophy doesn't matter... its what the trophy represents at the end of the day that makes you strive for it. Being the Best at something, thats what its all about.
To be a gritty player, you need to learn a lot of tricks though. It has to be taught. You need strategy AND tactics. It's just lacking from most European players. It's not taught. More and more that's changing, but it hasn't been the case in the past.

It's not just a matter of heart. It's not like the European guys aren't hustling. They're just hustling to create offense and play sound positional hockey.

It takes heart, know-how, and training. That has to become who you are as part of your identity. I think that's the main point.

A guy like Avery or Doan or (insert name) doesn't even have to do anything to have an influence on a game. They don't even have to be near the puck and they change how the game is played and to what areas the other team will go to. And Avery is 5-9, 195!

That's what grit and toughness will do. Look at us right now. Our skill guys rarely go in corners or to the net.

AKost-Pleks-Kovy... which one of those guys will get their hands dirty if the perimeter stuff doesn't work? Usually it's Kovy, but even Kovy doesn't go to the net.

It's a cultural thing and it exists and you can bet that Gainey knows and will make the changes once he finds out which of our young guys battle and which don't.


Last edited by tinyzombies: 04-29-2008 at 02:03 PM.
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Old
04-29-2008, 01:50 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by FunkyHab View Post
Its not because YOU wouldn't try as hard that all Europeans wouldn't either!!
Obviously you haven't read the entire first page or don't know how to read to be making blanket statements like that.

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04-29-2008, 01:53 PM
  #65
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To be a gritty player, you need to learn a lot of tricks though. It has to be taught. You need strategy AND tactics. It's just lacking from most European players. It's not taught. More and more that's changing, but it hasn't been the case in the past.
That I can agree with... If you wanna say our players are too youthful and that is showing, I can agree with that... but don't tell me its cause they are too European that they can't win. Look at Sergei, I call him gritty, he learned a lot from Dale Hunter. You can be taught those tricks, and the coaching in Europe is recognizing that and other countries are producing grittier and grittier players. You need the will to win though and i see it in our guys the way the team never gives up despite falling behind.

We saw it in the comeback at Jersey, we saw it in the Rangers game, we saw it in the way they responded in game 7, we saw it in the way they beat the Sens 3-0 to clinch the division.... we've seen it many times this year... this team has a will to win; and I still BELIEVE they will win tomorrow, and they will take this series in 6.

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04-29-2008, 01:56 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
That I can agree with... If you wanna say our players are too youthful and that is showing, I can agree with that... but don't tell me its cause they are too European that they can't win. Look at Sergei, I call him gritty, he learned a lot from Dale Hunter. You can be taught those tricks, and the coaching in Europe is recognizing that and other countries are producing grittier and grittier players. You need the will to win though and i see it in our guys the way the team never gives up despite falling behind.

We saw it in the comeback at Jersey, we saw it in the Rangers game, we saw it in the way they responded in game 7, we saw it in the way they beat the Sens 3-0 to clinch the division.... we've seen it many times this year... this team has a will to win; and I still BELIEVE they will win tomorrow, and they will take this series in 6.
The younger players are a new breed, but as long as those big rinks are used in Europe and there is no emphasis on toughness, I don't see it changing all that fast. I think there has been a new emphasis on toughness amongst Euro players though, just looking at the guys who come to play in the CHL alone. It will change, it has to.

Look at Canada. We instituted a countrywide policy to increase the skill of our players and look at all the talent that has come from that in the past couple years. It can be done, but it takes leadership.

I wish all our skill players could have trained under Hunter (yes you Plekanec).

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04-29-2008, 01:57 PM
  #67
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suggesting ethnicity has anything to do with motivation is racist. It can't be anything else

other racist comments:

1-Only francophones have "le Ch tatoué sur le coeur" (Habs logo as a tatoo on the heart, meaning only they care about the team)

2-Frenchies are scared that's why they wear visors

3-European players are here for the paycheck

4- [INSERT ETHNICITY HERE] are [INSERT CHARACTERISTIC HERE] because of [INSERT LAME GENERALIZATION OR PREJUDICE HERE]

Enough already
/thread

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04-29-2008, 01:59 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by CastroLeRobot View Post
suggesting ethnicity has anything to do with motivation is racist. It can't be anything else

other racist comments:

1-Only francophones have "le Ch tatoué sur le coeur" (Habs logo as a tatoo on the heart, meaning only they care about the team)

2-Frenchies are scared that's why they wear visors

3-European players are here for the paycheck

4- [INSERT ETHNICITY HERE] are [INSERT CHARACTERISTIC HERE] because of [INSERT LAME GENERALIZATION OR PREJUDICE HERE]

Enough already
/thread
The problem does exist, you can't ignore it. But people who make up dumb reasons for why it occurs are either not that intelligent or haven't put any thought into it.

In the meantime, we have to get more North America on this team. But it's a case-by-case basis. Who would you rather have than Ovechkin right now? Nuf said.


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04-29-2008, 02:01 PM
  #69
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I'll name two teams...

Anaheim

Detroit

Pretty self explanatory.

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Old
04-29-2008, 02:10 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by David View Post
Money? Fame? Women?

I am not saying that if you are European, that automatically keeps you from winning the Cup but that the incentive is less since their focus since childhood is more the Olympic Gold and not Stanely Cup.

Even then, everything has to be considered on an individual to individual basis.

And up to this point, (and of course that can change...and that's what I'm hoping for here) on individual basis, the Belarussians brothers and Plekanec have not shown any reason for me to believe that they want to win the Cup more than Olympic gold.
I still don't see anything but your self generated supposition that suggests Europeans have less focus on winning the Stanley Cup. Anyone who plays in the NHL knows that's the ultimate goal.

Plekanec has 10 pts in 16 playoffs games. SK has 8pts and Andrei has 6 pts in their first 10 games of playoff exposure. Can they play better? Absolutely. Are they unmitigated disasters - No. Why no mention of Latendresse or Higgins or Ryder - all North American born and raised and arguably having much less success.

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04-29-2008, 02:11 PM
  #71
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The problem does exist, you can't ignore it. But people who make up dumb reasons for why it occurs are either not that intelligent or haven't put any thought into it.
I don't see what problem you're talking about. NHL Hockey players (wherever they're from) are high level athletes. Which means they are extremely competitive in all aspects of their lives (which explains why gambling is such a problem with professional athletes, money plus competitiveness -- but that's OT). A true athlete plays to win. Period. Do you think that Soccer players in Europe don't want to win the champion's league unless they are from Europe?? Or that they need to spend a lot of time in Europe to understand that it's the highest professional title they can win in their careers? Of course not. They all want to win.

Saying something like "European style hockey is not suited to win NHL championships" may be a little better, but would be totally false as we can see all those European players dominating more and more. So, for me, it would all boil down to the individuals. Would a team of Forsbergs, Malkins, Bures, Jagrs, Lidstroms, Lundquists and Kovalevs kick ass? You bet it would. Would a team of Crosbys, Lemieuxs, Gretzkys, Bourques and Orrs kick ass? You bet it would. Now repeat the exercise with lower talent players and both teams would suck. It depends on who you're talking about. RACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT

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04-29-2008, 02:16 PM
  #72
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I don't see what problem you're talking about. NHL Hockey players (wherever they're from) are high level athletes. Which means they are extremely competitive in all aspects of their lives (which explains why gambling is such a problem with professional athletes, money plus competitiveness -- but that's OT). A true athlete plays to win. Period. Do you think that Soccer players in Europe don't want to win the champion's league unless they are from Europe?? Or that they need to spend a lot of time in Europe to understand that it's the highest professional title they can win in their careers? Of course not. They all want to win.

Saying something like "European style hockey is not suited to win NHL championships" may be a little better, but would be totally false as we can see all those European players dominating more and more. So, for me, it would all boil down to the individuals. Would a team of Forsbergs, Malkins, Bures, Jagrs, Lidstroms, Lundquists and Kovalevs kick ass? You bet it would. Would a team of Crosbys, Lemieuxs, Gretzkys, Bourques and Orrs kick ass? You bet it would. Now repeat the exercise with lower talent players and both teams would suck. It depends on who you're talking about. RACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT
It's getting better, but the problem is still there. The guys you point out are anomalies, they aren't the norm.

On the whole, the problem IS there.

You could point to Plekanec and Higgins and say that neither guy is paying the price and you'd be right.

That doesn't mean American players have a problem with the style they are playing, they don't, it's just Higgins.

Hard to point fingers because we don't know about the injuries. Higgins usually digs hard on the boards, Pleks not so much.

You could say playing a gritty style or being tough is meanspirited, but so is going after knees!

You could also say that the game has changed and isn't as violent as it was. You could also say the players are a lot bigger on average than they were 20 years ago.

You could say the goaltending is better, so scoring is harder, so the players have to dig deeper.

There are MANY variables.

I have no axe to grind against European players at all. Ovechkin is my favorite player. It's all relative from player to player.

Point is, don't discount the message because some of the messengers are morons or get it wrong.


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04-29-2008, 02:26 PM
  #73
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Why ws this thread started today!!!! After we lost!
Why didnt you start this thread at the start of the playoffs if you felt so strongly about it, why wait until we're losing a series for the first time.

Please dont hurt yourself jumping on and off the bandwagon.

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04-29-2008, 02:31 PM
  #74
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Why ws this thread started today!!!! After we lost!
Why didnt you start this thread at the start of the playoffs if you felt so strongly about it, why wait until we're losing a series for the first time.

Please do hurt yourself jumping on and off the bandwagon.
corrected

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04-29-2008, 02:34 PM
  #75
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If there's ever a reason why the Habs won't win the Cup this year........ not enough cowbell.

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