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Grit? Who has it?

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05-01-2008, 03:05 PM
  #26
Mue
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Originally Posted by Fido22 View Post
The only one I have doubts about in that department is AK. Pleks, I already see coming around. SK always plays with drive (not his best series though). AK, we shall see in this regard.
Andrei is a strong kid though and we have seen spurts of what he can do - he has to do it more often but not at the expense of his 'finesse' game. He has to find a balance, but the kid is a bull when he wants to be.

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05-01-2008, 03:33 PM
  #27
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it's a tough spot imo, because with Chipchura, Pacioretty and White on the farm, I think we do have the type of skilled gritty players we currently lack in the system, but they are still a few years away from being "go-to" contributors.

I'd really like to see Gainey address this issue via trade/ufa, though I won't hold my breath since it's been an issue since he took over, and he's seemingly been unwilling/unable to do anything about it.

players/positions I'd target as UFA's:

- 3rd/4th line centre: M.Peca, C.Gratton, S.Yelle

- top 6 wingers: selanne (though obvioulsy not for grit purposes... there just isnt much out there this year)

- bottom 6 wingers: Laraque, Lapointe,

really not much too help us in the UFA market...

trade-wise, there are two or three players I'd love to see Gainey Target aggresively:

- Eric Cole: exactly the kind of player we're missing. big injury history & in the last year of his contract so maybe there's a deal to be had.

- J. Langenbrunner: I'm sure Gainey and Carbo would love to make this guy a hab, but then again I'm sure Lou's asking price would make it impossible.


So I suppose the bottom line is that, at least for this off-season, the odds are that we won't be seeing the habs being able to do anything substantial to address this lack of "grit" that seems to plague us year in year out...

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05-01-2008, 03:57 PM
  #28
Kimota
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Philly.

I mentioned before Montreal has too much skill, and not enough grit.

It's a great regular season formula, but doesn't translate into the more grueling playoffs as well. With your skill players up front however, you should be able to move some of them in the offseason and get bigger in your top 6.

Lats just doesn't seem to have it, and outside of him you don't really have any offensive power forwards do you? I know there's MP in the pipeline, but how far away is he, and what kind of upside are you looking at?

My question; is that Montreal's style? As far back as I can remember they've mostly been about the speed and skill game. Can anyone honestly see them move out skill and speed for skill and grit?
In the best days of the 70s, Habs had guys that had skills, that could get their nose dirty and could drop the gloves. And I remember when they won the cup in 86 they had vicious guys like Chelios and Corson. You had pests like Claude Lemieux, fighters like Chris Nilan and others that could play physical like Skrudland, McPhee, etc...

I think Bob and Carbo forgot about this element of when they had teams that could do it all when they build this current group.

On the last game of the season they brought this kid Gregory Stewart who showed more fire than most of the rest of the guys on this roster and he played zip in physical series against Boston and Philly. It doesn't make any sens. Carbo keeps playing that cowardly lion angle "we will beat them on the powerplays" and it doesn't work like that in the playoffs. Powerplays won't win you cups. Who has the most the warrior spirit will win you cups.

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05-01-2008, 04:24 PM
  #29
Blind Gardien
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It's not as if teams can't win playing finesse and puck control games. I don't really watch the Red Wings and marvel at their grit. They have it squirreled away in their back pockets with some players, but actually very rarely have it on open display. Of course, the Red Wings' example of skill and puck control is not something that would ever be easy to match or even practically aspire to. It probably would be easier to just add some explicit grit to the team instead.

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05-01-2008, 04:27 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I think Bob and Carbo forgot about this element of when they had teams that could do it all when they build this current group.
It's not like they "forgot". It's not a video game and they can't just put together exactly the lineup they want. It was mentioned with the Kostopolous signing and at other times that they wanted to improve the grit. But sometimes you just have to go with the hand you're dealt in this game. They'll get a chance to throw away a couple of cards and draw a couple new ones this summer. It still doesn't mean they'll get exactly what they want then either, though.

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05-01-2008, 04:48 PM
  #31
Kimota
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
It's not like they "forgot". It's not a video game and they can't just put together exactly the lineup they want. It was mentioned with the Kostopolous signing and at other times that they wanted to improve the grit. But sometimes you just have to go with the hand you're dealt in this game. They'll get a chance to throw away a couple of cards and draw a couple new ones this summer. It still doesn't mean they'll get exactly what they want then either, though.
Good point. Although they had all year to improve on that weakness and closed their eyes on that grit problem because the team performed so well. Only on the last game they brought this Stewart kid that showed SOME fire.

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05-01-2008, 05:09 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Good point. Although they had all year to improve on that weakness and closed their eyes on that grit problem because the team performed so well. Only on the last game they brought this Stewart kid that showed SOME fire.
The Stewart issue is kind of a red herring to me, though. I mean, yeah, he had a good game in his callup. But to follow his junior and AHL careers, I don't think that one game really fits as being representative of what he'd bring every day in the NHL at this stage of his development. After another year in the AHL, maybe he'll be ready to replace Begin when his contract expires. But it's premature to be talking about Stewart for today's team IMHO, even if it is very nice that he's developing better than we might have expected.

I also don't know how many good gritty players were on the market during the season. Or at what price, since they'd probably be pretty popular commodities for all sorts of playoff teams. But I'm too lazy to look back and see. It's not like we really need more bottom-line grit. Guys like Begin and Kostopolous are about as good as anything out there in their spots. The upper line kind might have been a lot more rare. And even then, well, we did finish first in the conference, so maybe it was fair game to see if the finessey style could carry through in the playoffs. Just to see. We've seen. Now we get to see how things are handled in the summer to advance the program.

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05-01-2008, 05:18 PM
  #33
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Watching this series it made me wonder what if Shannahan had chosen MTL instead of the Rangers. He's the perfect guy for a young team like this. He'd be able to add some much needed grit to the top 6 and show the kids what it takes to win.

In the summer we're going to need to target a gritty guy who fits in the top 6. Langenbrunner, as previously mentioned, would be great but there's no chance.

In Gainey I trust. All he needs to do is sign a gritty 600 goal scorer like Shanny in the off season, shouldn't be a problem.

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05-01-2008, 05:19 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by SpreeEndaz View Post
O'Byrne and Latendresse will both need to learn to use their bodies more. Also, we will have some players like Valentenko and Subban who both doesn't look like guys who would back off from a physical contest.
I think with this experience in the playoffs that guys like LATS/LAPS realize what they need to do to take the next step, as well the SKost is fiesty and AKost has the size strength do do it when needed. If Stewart makes the roster next year he will bring it.O'Bryne will learn to use his size with more confidence. And with guys coming up like Valentenko/Subban/Emelin/MaxPac/White/Chips se certainly have that element on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Front Office View Post
Watching this series it made me wonder what if Shannahan had chosen MTL instead of the Rangers. He's the perfect guy for a young team like this. He'd be able to add some much needed grit to the top 6 and she the kids what it takes to win.

In the summer we're going to need to target a gritty guy who fits in the top 6. Langenbrunner, as previously mentioned, would be great but there's no chance.

In Gainey I trust. All he needs to do is sign a gritty 600 goal scorer like Shanny in the off season, shouldn't be a problem.
I think Shanny is closer to retirement than being useful to any team now. PASS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
It's not like they "forgot". It's not a video game and they can't just put together exactly the lineup they want. It was mentioned with the Kostopolous signing and at other times that they wanted to improve the grit. But sometimes you just have to go with the hand you're dealt in this game. They'll get a chance to throw away a couple of cards and draw a couple new ones this summer. It still doesn't mean they'll get exactly what they want then either, though.
Ya the HABS really didn't have much of anything before Gainey took over so adding skill is harder and more important than grit . Grit is easier to fill in the spots than trying to find skill. And they have built from the goal out, D is filling in nicely and the F are filling out nice....hopefully Brunnstrom is impressed on SAT game and the crowd. That would be like adding another 1st round pick before even getting to the draft. With a fairly solid talent base of youngsters they can now take a chance on a homerun in the draft.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 05-01-2008 at 08:08 PM.
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05-01-2008, 05:54 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Good point. Although they had all year to improve on that weakness and closed their eyes on that grit problem because the team performed so well. Only on the last game they brought this Stewart kid that showed SOME fire.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about Stewart. I'll Admit, he played great with some fire against TORONTO. but do you honestly think he would have had the same impact in the playoffs against teams like boston and philly. He doesn't have the skill to play on the top 2 lines (he wasn't even a scorer in the AHL) and i wouldn't put him there ahead of the guys that are currently playing in the finals. He doesn't bring as much to the table as guys like kosto, lats, smoke, begin or lapierre and streit has to be in the line up because he and markov are our PP quarterbacks. What the habs really need are guys who are gritty and can play in the top 6. Guys like Getzlaf, Richards, ryan smyth etc. Unfortunately these guys are hard to come by. The only person who the habs have in their pipeline that play with grit and have the skills to play in their top 6 is Max-Pac but hes 2 years away. So for now the only way we can get guys who are gritty and skilled is through a trade(which will cost us a lot) or by free agency ( but theres not a whole lot available in this years week free agency)

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05-01-2008, 05:59 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Good point. Although they had all year to improve on that weakness and closed their eyes on that grit problem because the team performed so well. Only on the last game they brought this Stewart kid that showed SOME fire.
Wouldnt make a difference, it's not like he would add gritt to out TOP lines or anything...

What we need, and most team have, is something like :

gritty player-Plekanec-Kovalev
or
AK-Plekanec-gritty player
or
S. Kostytsin-Koivu-gritty player

etc.

not ANOTHER 3rd or 4rd liner...



players like Plekanec, S. Kostytsin and a few others don't have what it takes to do it, nor should they... last thing I want is theses to be injured before the end of their first shift... bring players who have the size, willingness and have been playing that for years already. Oh! and make sure the guy has enough talent to play on top two lines, like Morrow or Malone for example...


Last edited by Beakermania*: 05-01-2008 at 08:08 PM.
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Old
05-01-2008, 06:48 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
It's not about grit, but hard work, win your one on one battles and being able to take a hit to make a play. But let's not forget we have the youngest team in the playoffs. Still, too many players are non-factor because they get intimidated physically.
I think you nailed it.

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Old
05-01-2008, 07:09 PM
  #38
Kimota
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Wouldnt make a difference, it's not like he would add gritt to out TOP lines or anything...
But having one more guy on the ice that's willing to perhaps get his nose dirty, even willing to drop the gloves...would add something to our club. I don't think one guy could change our team but they could put Lapierre one the first two lines just so you have a more grinding style one these lines and then have Stewart replace Lapierre with Begin. The problem with the Habs is that they lack that style of play on all four lines. Lapierre has showed that he had speed and I think putting him with maybe Andrei and Plekanecs could maybe shake things up and make these guys work harder.

There's several options Guy could entertain that would add more fire to this group. And adding Stewart would be the ideal first step.

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05-02-2008, 07:32 AM
  #39
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by Front Office View Post
Watching this series it made me wonder what if Shannahan had chosen MTL instead of the Rangers. He's the perfect guy for a young team like this. He'd be able to add some much needed grit to the top 6 and show the kids what it takes to win.
Watching Shanny the last couple years, I don't think it's fair to think of him as being particularly gritty anymore. He's a wily and respected guy, but I think he's cashed in his chips in terms of physicality or visible grit. In that respect, I don't think you'd necessarily go wrong adding him to your team with something akin to Smolinski-esque expectations on a Smolinski-esque contract. Probably ending up with some Smolinski-esque disappointments along the way too when he starts to show even more visibly how close to finished he is. He'd be good for leadership and veteran class and all that, though, so I wouldn't mind if the Habs signed him this summer.

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05-02-2008, 07:36 AM
  #40
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We need to draft three guys with names like John Sandpaper, Michael Grit and Bob Roughness. Guys with those family names are bound to be what we need...

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05-02-2008, 07:46 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
It's not as if teams can't win playing finesse and puck control games. I don't really watch the Red Wings and marvel at their grit. They have it squirreled away in their back pockets with some players, but actually very rarely have it on open display. Of course, the Red Wings' example of skill and puck control is not something that would ever be easy to match or even practically aspire to. It probably would be easier to just add some explicit grit to the team instead.
while the Red Wings may not "rely" on grit, I'd certainly consider them a team with a fair amount of gritty players srpinkled throughout their forward lineup.

Up front they have Holmstrom (the exact type of player we sorely lack), Franzen, Cleary, Draper, Drake and McCarty... that's 6 of their 13 forwards that have dressed so far this playoffs

In a way, I think that if we could add one or two "gritty" players to our top 3 lines in the offseason, we'd be able to play a very similar style to the red wings. I think what makes their game so effective is that they have the personnel to balance the finess/puck control with "grit"/agressive & physical offensive zone presence. We have the skill, but outside of Koivu (which in itself highlights the problem), and to a certain extent Higgins, our forwards don't seem able/willing to do the "gritty" type work in the Offensive zone.

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05-02-2008, 08:08 AM
  #42
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I think a fishtank would solve our problems.

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05-02-2008, 12:09 PM
  #43
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This guy... but I don't think there's room in the lineup...


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05-02-2008, 03:05 PM
  #44
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Koivu doesn't have grit?

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05-02-2008, 03:10 PM
  #45
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I agree with many posts that the Habs are lacking in the Grit/willing to pay the price department.

Who do you think in the NHL has this grit/pay the price mentality, and which of them would be a possibility for the habs to sign next year?

Also, would you give up anyone on our current roster to obtain someone with grit?
I'd give up anyone except for Koivu, Markov, Price, *Kovalev, Hammer, Komi. Especially after witnessing these guys play this playoff, all others are expendable, IMO.


*Only because Madonna may play better and less girly-like if he had some top line muscle on his line.

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05-02-2008, 04:06 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
while the Red Wings may not "rely" on grit, I'd certainly consider them a team with a fair amount of gritty players srpinkled throughout their forward lineup.

Up front they have Holmstrom (the exact type of player we sorely lack), Franzen, Cleary, Draper, Drake and McCarty... that's 6 of their 13 forwards that have dressed so far this playoffs

In a way, I think that if we could add one or two "gritty" players to our top 3 lines in the offseason, we'd be able to play a very similar style to the red wings. I think what makes their game so effective is that they have the personnel to balance the finess/puck control with "grit"/agressive & physical offensive zone presence. We have the skill, but outside of Koivu (which in itself highlights the problem), and to a certain extent Higgins, our forwards don't seem able/willing to do the "gritty" type work in the Offensive zone.
I don't think these guys have as much grit as we do .....really just cause they play for Detroit and DET is winning they must be gritty.
I think Begin/Kosto/Smo/Laps/Higs/ have been way more gritty
Holmstrom and Franzen are big but they don't throw body checks much.

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05-02-2008, 07:38 PM
  #47
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Begin has grit and everybody blames him for losing the game

I guess we need semi-grit

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