HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

A Good Deal For A Big Center

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-05-2008, 07:50 PM
  #51
coolguy21415
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 9,285
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yarfangor View Post
o_O uh unless we are getting a 1st rounder with Olli I don't think we should listen to this un-realistic, stupid trade.
A 1st rounder isn't out of the question at all here. We're just discussing players.

coolguy21415 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 07:58 PM
  #52
MonacoBlue
 
MonacoBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,997
vCash: 500
Look at what Richards went for at the deadline. Sure, he was more expensive but I'm not fascinated with Jokinen to give up that many assets. Save them for someone else (I know most people are getting tired of this but it'll pay off in the long run).

MonacoBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:05 PM
  #53
Live Forever
Registered User
 
Live Forever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,292
vCash: 500
The Richards deal was meant to free up cap space. Tampa realized that placing all your eggs in one basket wasn't working out for them. It's hard to demand a high return when you expect the receiving team to take on a Richards' type contract.

Live Forever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:10 PM
  #54
RE-HABS
Registered User
 
RE-HABS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: CANADA
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,885
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by geeman View Post
The Panthers maybe in a position to move Jokinen , his time may have run out .

A very realistic deal is Higgins , Obyrne, and a solid prospect like Subban or Emelin, plus a pick .

They need D in big way , we need a big center .

He has 2 years left on a fair deal , and would be an ideal# 1 center for us. They get a good player , 5 years younger , and 2 kids .

We have plenty of D prospects , other than McDonough I would move any of them.

what do you think ?
Why do that when you have money available to offer a guy like Sundin a 2 year deal why you wait for some youngsters to develop or package some others in a deal for some centre help after signing Mats.

RE-HABS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:12 PM
  #55
Chomsky
Registered User
 
Chomsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talent Analyst View Post
Jokinen for Plekanek and O'Byrne
Sidemove, no point in doing it.

Chomsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:13 PM
  #56
Live Forever
Registered User
 
Live Forever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
Why do that when you have money available to offer a guy like Sundin a 2 year deal why you wait for some youngsters to develop or package some others in a deal for some centre help after signing Mats.
If only it were that easy...

Live Forever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:15 PM
  #57
Chomsky
Registered User
 
Chomsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Live Forever View Post
The Richards deal was meant to free up cap space. Tampa realized that placing all your eggs in one basket wasn't working out for them. It's hard to demand a high return when you expect the receiving team to take on a Richards' type contract.
Yes and no... with their owner coming up and claiming he'd be ready to spend $ up to the cap, they didn't need to have a salary dump, so they did the trade essentially to get a number 1 (young) goalie and depth on Defence and up front.

Chomsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:23 PM
  #58
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Because he's the most valuable asset that we have which could possibly be expendable.

Do you want to deal Sergei Kostitsyn? Or Andrei? Or Komisarek?

Exactly.
You may have noticed that Montreal's undoing in the playoffs were in the effort, size, grittiness categories.

So let's take the teams best combination of effort, grit, and 2 way play, package it with what promises to be the toughest defenseman the team has developed since Komisarek, add in some Picks-N-Prospects and get yet another unproven playoff euro.
Absolutely ! and that's being generous.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:29 PM
  #59
Live Forever
Registered User
 
Live Forever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
Yes and no... with their owner coming up and claiming he'd be ready to spend $ up to the cap, they didn't need to have a salary dump, so they did the trade essentially to get a number 1 (young) goalie and depth on Defence and up front.
I'm not saying that the team doesn't have intentions to exercise all of their cap space, I'm just saying that the Richards deal was done so that they can free up cap space and then redistribute the extra funds they saved. If they want to get back to cap max then so be it. We noticed they got a deal done to sign Boyle longterm. It would have never been done if Richards would have stayed on their roster. Hence, they don't want to place all their eggs in one basket with 3 expensive forwards and a terrible supporting cast.

Live Forever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:34 PM
  #60
coolguy21415
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 9,285
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
You may have noticed that Montreal's undoing in the playoffs were in the effort, size, grittiness categories.

So let's take the teams best combination of effort, grit, and 2 way play, package it with what promises to be the toughest defenseman the team has developed since Komisarek, add in some Picks-N-Prospects and get yet another unproven playoff euro.
Absolutely ! and that's being generous.
Well my vision is to add a player like Mark Stuart to supplement O'Byrne's loss (and he's not that gritty IMO.. he's just big) and a winger to fill that empty winger slot, depending on some stuff.

I never said it was a perfect plan. In fact, I don't really endorse it because I'm not a Jokinen fan, but I'm willing to discuss the topic to see where it leads the team structure.


Last edited by coolguy21415: 05-05-2008 at 08:44 PM.
coolguy21415 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:49 PM
  #61
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Well my vision is to add a player like Mark Stuart to supplement O'Byrne's loss (and he's not that gritty IMO.. he's just big) and a winger to fill that empty winger slot.

I never said it was a perfect plan. In fact, I don't really endorse it because I'm not a Jokinen fan, but I'm willing to discuss the topic to see where it leads the team structure.
That's where we'll have to leave it. IMO Higgins name shouldn't come into trade discussions, he brings elements that the team needs more of, not less. If his name does enter trade talks, we had better be talking about a player much much better than Jokinen.

O'byrne is a promising behemoth. I like his approach. Needless to say he'd be the lesser part of the deal but there's no way I throw him into something unnecessarily.

But my contention is that Higgins, for a number of reasons that I thought would be more painfully felt in the wake of the team being outworked by the Flyers, is part of the solution.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:52 PM
  #62
Chomsky
Registered User
 
Chomsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Live Forever View Post
I'm not saying that the team doesn't have intentions to exercise all of their cap space, I'm just saying that the Richards deal was done so that they can free up cap space and then redistribute the extra funds they saved. If they want to get back to cap max then so be it. We noticed they got a deal done to sign Boyle longterm. It would have never been done if Richards would have stayed on their roster. Hence, they don't want to place all their eggs in one basket with 3 expensive forwards and a terrible supporting cast.

Yes they had the cap space to re-sign Boyle, keep Richards and get some depth on the UFA market.

Like you said, they chose to get better defensively and get some depth, while becoming weaker offensively.

Thus, I don't just believe that the trade was a salary dump, 'cause a salary dump wouldn't have reached as much. It was just a long-term decision, and it should bring benefits (hopefully for Tampa), in a few years.

Olli Jokinen would reach a similar value, since he would most likely be traded in the summer (thus no playoff output right away. See: Rental player) Now, it will be up to JM to decide whether or not he's willing to trade him for a similar package.

And Martin is usually very greedy in trades. (Roberts for Welch)

Chomsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 08:54 PM
  #63
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,697
vCash: 500
In fact, I'm pretty sure Jokinen would play Koivu's right wing in Montreal in the short term. Stick a guy like Latendresse or even Sergei with them, and you have 2 big big big lines.

Id also like to add that while Higgins is still progressing, Paccioretty will soon have a spot on this team and it is my belief that hes the real deal, in a lot of ways. Ryan White may also end up being a left winger for the bigs. If they want to keep AndreiK on the left wing, a distinct possibility, we will have to think seriously about Higgins value for us and on the trade market, but theres still plenty of time for that. Next year, it's crunch time for Higgins. No more excuses, he needs to become the player that Chris Higgins can be, every night.

SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:01 PM
  #64
Chomsky
Registered User
 
Chomsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
In fact, I'm pretty sure Jokinen would play Koivu's right wing in Montreal in the short term. Stick a guy like Latendresse or even Sergei with them, and you have 2 big big big lines.

Id also like to add that while Higgins is still progressing, Paccioretty will soon have a spot on this team and it is my belief that hes the real deal, in a lot of ways. Ryan White may also end up being a left winger for the bigs. If they want to keep AndreiK on the left wing, a distinct possibility, we will have to think seriously about Higgins value for us and on the trade market, but theres still plenty of time for that. Next year, it's crunch time for Higgins. No more excuses, he needs to become the player that Chris Higgins can be, every night.
Just few of my thoughts on this:

-Jokinen can't play on the RW for ****.. he's a C/LWer. So Sergei most likely. (Or Andrei)
-I doubt that White would be really efficient on the LW as he's RH, and a natural C.
-Andrei Kostitsyn needs to be moved on the RW ASAP, if we want him to reach his potential faster. He's clearly more comfortable on his natural wing.
-Higgins is not going anywhere, but he might have to accept a role on the third line sooner than later.
-Pacioretty really is the real deal, and he'll have a shot at making the team as soon as next season, if you want to.

Chomsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:02 PM
  #65
coolguy21415
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 9,285
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
In fact, I'm pretty sure Jokinen would play Koivu's right wing in Montreal in the short term. Stick a guy like Latendresse or even Sergei with them, and you have 2 big big big lines.

Id also like to add that while Higgins is still progressing, Paccioretty will soon have a spot on this team and it is my belief that hes the real deal, in a lot of ways. Ryan White may also end up being a left winger for the bigs. If they want to keep AndreiK on the left wing, a distinct possibility, we will have to think seriously about Higgins value for us and on the trade market, but theres still plenty of time for that. Next year, it's crunch time for Higgins. No more excuses, he needs to become the player that Chris Higgins can be, every night.
The problem with your logic (and I agree with much of it, I have the same flaw) is that we're then relying on the promise of young players. While I think those players (and others) will be solid contributors for the Habs in the future, we can't rely on 21, 22, and 23 year olds to propel this team to a Stanley Cup.

I agree though. Higgins needs to be more consistent and live up to expectation. I hope he signs an extension this offseason (even one year if it needs to be short), but I don't think he will. I think he'll wait until after next year because this past season wasn't great for him.

coolguy21415 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:03 PM
  #66
Kachino
Registered User
 
Kachino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: China
Posts: 5,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
In fact, I'm pretty sure Jokinen would play Koivu's right wing in Montreal in the short term. Stick a guy like Latendresse or even Sergei with them, and you have 2 big big big lines.

Id also like to add that while Higgins is still progressing, Paccioretty will soon have a spot on this team and it is my belief that hes the real deal, in a lot of ways. Ryan White may also end up being a left winger for the bigs. If they want to keep AndreiK on the left wing, a distinct possibility, we will have to think seriously about Higgins value for us and on the trade market, but theres still plenty of time for that. Next year, it's crunch time for Higgins. No more excuses, he needs to become the player that Chris Higgins can be, every night.
I honestly think the guy is going to be one of the good shutdown player in the league when he'll play on the 3rd line (very good defensively and with some offensive skills).

Kachino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:09 PM
  #67
Live Forever
Registered User
 
Live Forever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
Yes they had the cap space to re-sign Boyle, keep Richards and get some depth on the UFA market.

Like you said, they chose to get better defensively and get some depth, while becoming weaker offensively.

Thus, I don't just believe that the trade was a salary dump, 'cause a salary dump wouldn't have reached as much. It was just a long-term decision, and it should bring benefits (hopefully for Tampa), in a few years.

Olli Jokinen would reach a similar value, since he would most likely be traded in the summer (thus no playoff output right away. See: Rental player) Now, it will be up to JM to decide whether or not he's willing to trade him for a similar package.

And Martin is usually very greedy in trades. (Roberts for Welch)
Please man, you're telling me Tampa Bay or any NHL franchise would be able to sustain contracts like Richards @ $7.8, Lecav @ $7.167, St. Louis @ $6, Boyle $6.66 plus still add a UFA (according to you) plus dress other players? The supporting cast need to be paid like league minimum or close for that to happen.

According to you, Richards' 7.8 million dollar contract would never hold any team back at trading for him. If that's the case then that means Jokinen should come practically free... I mean when comparing him to Richards, Brad has a Stanley Cup ring, a Conn Smythe trophy, a Lady Byng Trophy. Dude, the reason Richards didn't fetch a better return is attributed fully to the size of his contract.

Live Forever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:12 PM
  #68
Erika
Registered User
 
Erika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ville Lasalle
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
colossal overpayment.
LOL are you kidding ?!??! I'm not even sure Jacques Martin would be interested with this proposal...

Higgins has some value right now, so let's trade him while he has some left before he becomes a non factor like Ryder.


The guy is a utility player with some offensive skills and is very well replaceable. The only guy that I would be afraid to lose is Ryan O'Byrne. The guy is raw and we don't know how he will develop within the next few years. Even though, to bring Olli Jokinen, you will need to throw in an extra Guy like Latendresse or Gorges.

Erika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:23 PM
  #69
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
Just few of my thoughts on this:

-Jokinen can't play on the RW for ****.. he's a C/LWer. So Sergei most likely. (Or Andrei)
-I doubt that White would be really efficient on the LW as he's RH, and a natural C.
-Andrei Kostitsyn needs to be moved on the RW ASAP, if we want him to reach his potential faster. He's clearly more comfortable on his natural wing.
-Higgins is not going anywhere, but he might have to accept a role on the third line sooner than later.
-Pacioretty really is the real deal, and he'll have a shot at making the team as soon as next season, if you want to.
1)Jokinen played on the RW in Florida(and C and LW), but I wouldn't make ANY judgment about his performance there, I feel that this organization is sick from the top. Playing with Koivu on ANY position would be good for him.
2)White played on all wings already, pretty natural thing for him.
3)AK, I'd like AK on the RW as well, but it doesnt seem to be in play, for weird reasons. Or they are waiting for Kovalev to go.
4)I don't think Gainey will accept loosing the value of the potential of Higgins by having this value sit on the 3rd line.
5) Well Max is max


Last edited by SOLR: 05-05-2008 at 09:32 PM.
SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:23 PM
  #70
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erika Kostitsyn View Post
LOL are you kidding ?!??! I'm not even sure Jacques Martin would be interested with this proposal...

Higgins has some value right now, so let's trade him while he has some left before he becomes a non factor like Ryder.


The guy is a utility player with some offensive skills and is very well replaceable. The only guy that I would be afraid to lose is Ryan O'Byrne. The guy is raw and we don't know how he will develop within the next few years. Even though, to bring Olli Jokinen, you will need to throw in an extra Guy like Latendresse or Gorges.
yeah, 27 goal 2-way forwards that work endlessly are a dime a dozen.

This trade proposal won't happen for one important reason - it's a terrible idea that sets Montreal back.

Montreal fans have been exposed to europeans so much in recent years that they feel it necessary to get more - even if it means trading their most well rounded and hard working players . It's absolutely ridiculous, and a trend I hope that reverses itself.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:28 PM
  #71
Erika
Registered User
 
Erika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ville Lasalle
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
yeah, 27 goal 2-way forwards that work endlessly are a dime a dozen.

This trade proposal won't happen for one important reason - it's a terrible idea that sets Montreal back.

Montreal fans have been exposed to europeans so much in recent years that they feel it necessary to get more - even if it means trading their most well rounded and hard working players . It's absolutely ridiculous, and a trend I hope that reverses itself.

Excuse me ?!?! A a forward that works Endlessly ?!?! Sorry, but I think you didn't watch the same game as I do, because Higgins was invisible in 50% of the games he played this season. He was horrible from november to february, got a small wake up, and dissapeared again in the playoffs !! Endless worker ?!?! Give me a break !!

Erika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:30 PM
  #72
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
The problem with your logic (and I agree with much of it, I have the same flaw) is that we're then relying on the promise of young players. While I think those players (and others) will be solid contributors for the Habs in the future, we can't rely on 21, 22, and 23 year olds to propel this team to a Stanley Cup.

I agree though. Higgins needs to be more consistent and live up to expectation. I hope he signs an extension this offseason (even one year if it needs to be short), but I don't think he will. I think he'll wait until after next year because this past season wasn't great for him.
That's the point, you can't rely on them per say, but you have to take the chance that they will provide you with that depth you need to win. Koivu-Jokinen-Kovalev, is a superior talent core than Koivu-Higgins-Kovalev any way you cut it.(It's also safer for the long term imo)

Look at the pens, I'm not talking about Fleury-Malkin-Crosby, but look at Letang, Kennedy and guys like that. You want Latendresse and co stepping in the same fashion, but you also need big time players that draw attention to them. Higgins while developping well, slowly but surely, doesnt bring that much attention to him and can be shut down at a low cost, this isnt the case of Jokinen.

SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:32 PM
  #73
Chomsky
Registered User
 
Chomsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Live Forever View Post
Please man, you're telling me Tampa Bay or any NHL franchise would be able to sustain contracts like Richards @ $7.8, Lecav @ $7.167, St. Louis @ $6, Boyle $6.66 plus still add a UFA (according to you) plus dress other players? The supporting cast need to be paid like league minimum or close for that to happen.

According to you, Richards' 7.8 million dollar contract would never hold any team back at trading for him. If that's the case then that means Jokinen should come practically free... I mean when comparing him to Richards, Brad has a Stanley Cup ring, a Conn Smythe trophy, a Lady Byng Trophy. Dude, the reason Richards didn't fetch a better return is attributed fully to the size of his contract.
When you have Drury and Briere at a similar salary... his contract is almost becoming reasonable.

Quick analysis (Essay due for tomorrow):

Tampa actual cap hit for next season:35.908
+
Richards salary-the salaries of Smith, Jokinen and Picards:4.55M
=40,458M

RFA: Picard,Karl, Craig

UFA: Gratton, Lessard, Darche, Roy, McDonald

Gone: Prospal (traded/UFA), Taylor(Retired)

In: Stamkos (Most likely) +/-:850k

So, 15,5M for 8 players (most of them were marginal)... yes they could have.

http://nhlnumbers.com/overview.php?team=TBL

Chomsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:32 PM
  #74
le_sean
Registered User
 
le_sean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ottawa
Country: Vatican City State
Posts: 15,010
vCash: 500
The thing with Higgins is we know he is not a first line winger, he is a 2nd liner. But we don't need a 2nd line player we have enough already, we need a first line player to play with the only one we have now, Kovalev.

le_sean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2008, 09:33 PM
  #75
Little Nilan
Registered User
 
Little Nilan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Praha
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 8,209
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Little Nilan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erika Kostitsyn View Post
Excuse me ?!?! A a forward that works Endlessly ?!?! Sorry, but I think you didn't watch the same game as I do, because Higgins was invisible in 50% of the games he played this season. He was horrible from november to february, got a small wake up, and dissapeared again in the playoffs !! Endless worker ?!?! Give me a break !!
So you're saying that Higgins is not a hard worker? I agree, I also agree with people who say that Toyotas are unreliable vehicles. Those guys with their LEAN crap.

Little Nilan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:34 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.