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Old
05-05-2008, 10:33 PM
  #76
Agnostic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erika Kostitsyn View Post
Excuse me ?!?! A a forward that works Endlessly ?!?! Sorry, but I think you didn't watch the same game as I do, because Higgins was invisible in 50% of the games he played this season. He was horrible from november to february, got a small wake up, and dissapeared again in the playoffs !! Endless worker ?!?! Give me a break !!
I watched them all, and in terms of effort Higgins is possibly tops on the squad. End of story.

Some people simply look at goal production, and such a myopic view would lead one to think that this kind of lopsided trade is fair. But it's not.

In any case I doubt Higgins is going anywhere any time soon.

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05-05-2008, 10:34 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
When you have Drury and Briere at a similar salary... his contract is almost becoming reasonable.

Quick analysis (Essay due for tomorrow):

Tampa actual cap hit for next season:35.908
+
Richards salary-the salaries of Smith, Jokinen and Picards:4.55M
=40,458M

RFA: Picard,Karl, Craig

UFA: Gratton, Lessard, Darche, Roy, McDonald

Gone: Prospal (traded/UFA), Taylor(Retired)

In: Stamkos (Most likely) +/-:850k

So, 15,5M for 8 players (most of them were marginal)... yes they could have.

http://nhlnumbers.com/overview.php?team=TBL
Yeah, I think they are operating with an internal cap very close to the NHL low-end limit.(bottom)

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05-05-2008, 10:35 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Kareem Anderson View Post
So you're saying that Higgins is not a hard worker? I agree, I also agree with people who say that Toyotas are unreliable vehicles. Those guys with their LEAN crap.
Higgins is Damned if he does,damned if he doesn't.No absolute need to discuss of Higgins with Erika Kostitysn,it's not worth it.

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05-05-2008, 10:36 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
yeah, 27 goal 2-way forwards that work endlessly are a dime a dozen.

This trade proposal won't happen for one important reason - it's a terrible idea that sets Montreal back.

Montreal fans have been exposed to europeans so much in recent years that they feel it necessary to get more - even if it means trading their most well rounded and hard working players . It's absolutely ridiculous, and a trend I hope that reverses itself.
I agree that too many Europeans is often a bad thing for a team in the playoffs. But Scandinavians play very differently than Eastern Euros, they are much more willing to pay the price. Koivu was our best player in these playoffs, Forsberg is a beast, Sundin, Zetterberg. I can go on and on.

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05-05-2008, 10:36 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
I watched them all, and in terms of effort Higgins is possibly tops on the squad. End of story.

Some people simply look at goal production, and such a myopic view would lead one to think that this kind of lopsided trade is fair. But it's not.

In any case I doubt Higgins is going anywhere any time soon.
I disagree, Higgins is always skating fast, but hes not always "alive", when he is, it shows, hes freaking Jarome Iginla good when he plays like that. Problem is, hes an on/off switch, that isnt on often enough.

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05-05-2008, 10:37 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
1)Jokinen played on the RW in Florida(and C and LW), but I wouldn't make ANY judgment about his performance there, I feel that this organization is sick from the top. Playing with Koivu on ANY position would be good for him.
2)White played on all wings already, pretty natural thing for him.
3)AK, I'd like AK on the RW as well, but it doesnt seem to be in play, for weird reasons. Or they are waiting for Kovalev to go.
4)I don't think Gainey will accept loosing the value of the potential of Higgins by having this value sit on the 3rd line.
5) Well Max is max
1) Trust panthers fans and I on this one (And I saw like 7-8 panthers games last year), he really does suck on the RW.
2)Really? I did not know that, but considering he still has a lots of work to do to be able to reach the NHL, we'll not consider junior as a good field to evaluate whether or not he's a good LWer.
3) Probably the latter.. damn kovalev.
4)If you are rolling 4 lines like we are, and have 3 offensive lines, he is not wasting his potential or anything...
5) Amen.

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Old
05-05-2008, 10:38 PM
  #82
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Someone said Higgins, Valentenko, and or Yemlin for Olli? Can you say 1 step forward and 3 steps back?

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Old
05-05-2008, 10:47 PM
  #83
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Screw it. Never trade Higgy. I want him on the team for the next 15 years. He's the new Chelios. He goes beyond hockey.

Keep the guys we got. If you want size here's the recipe: if our boys pop the HGH now it will be undetectable by September.

And to get taller they can get Izkharoff's procedure. Bust the legs, put 'em in a clamp with a half inch separation and let the space grow back with bone. They do this all the time in Korea and Russia.

Voila size problem solved.

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05-05-2008, 10:52 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
yeah, 27 goal 2-way forwards that work endlessly are a dime a dozen.

This trade proposal won't happen for one important reason - it's a terrible idea that sets Montreal back.

Montreal fans have been exposed to europeans so much in recent years that they feel it necessary to get more - even if it means trading their most well rounded and hard working players . It's absolutely ridiculous, and a trend I hope that reverses itself.
I think this post is absolutely ridiculous myself.

Hockey is becoming nearly the same everywhere on the planet, in the last few years Canada is influencing the rest of the hockey world into a more physical style(like they with the trap before). The only remaining subclimate is in Russia where skill is a way of life, even there the game is changing towards a more Canadian style.

As for Canadians being "winners" and not Europeans, it's bullcrap. Perfect example of the usage of statistics for political means and I feel sorry to even read those kind of arguments. Please, Ovechkin, Lidstrom, Malkin, Federov do you have special label for them too? Or are they "exceptions", I could fill a page of exceptions. Care too look at Football where they could easily tell us we are just sitting ducks with no talents and character because we are/ have been statistically irrelevant in the history of the sport over the last 100 years?

Blame Petrov, Berezin etc. even Koivu all you want for the past 13 years, we probably just did 20 mistakes on selecting the good Europeans, exactly like we did at drafting like novices in the 90's a bunch of big kids from western Canada, with no character, not even reaching the NHL in most cases. I do remember a guy named Mats Naslund, maybe your too young for that.

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05-05-2008, 10:54 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
When you have Drury and Briere at a similar salary... his contract is almost becoming reasonable.

Quick analysis (Essay due for tomorrow):

Tampa actual cap hit for next season:35.908
+
Richards salary-the salaries of Smith, Jokinen and Picards:4.55M
=40,458M

RFA: Picard,Karl, Craig

UFA: Gratton, Lessard, Darche, Roy, McDonald

Gone: Prospal (traded/UFA), Taylor(Retired)

In: Stamkos (Most likely) +/-:850k

So, 15,5M for 8 players (most of them were marginal)... yes they could have.

http://nhlnumbers.com/overview.php?team=TBL

I think you're missing my point. It is not about if it is mathimatically possible to afford the players under a cap, it's more about if you are able to remain competitive with multiple expensive players that take up the majority of your cap leaving not much else for a supporting cast. That was the reason Tampa got rid of Richards, it simply wasn't working out to have the majority of their money spent on 3 forwards. We also derailed from the topic of our debate, but i'll use Gomez and Drury as an example. Why is it that you need to compare players now in order to make Richards' contract become reasonable. If you stick to what you've been saying all this time, the size of Richards' contract was a non issue in him getting the type of return he got. Now your arguement is well if Drury got $7.35 million per year, then Richards' contract @ $7.8 looks a lot better. Before you're arguement was more like Richards' @ 5 million or a Richards at $7.8 million makes no difference which I disagreed with.

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05-05-2008, 10:57 PM
  #86
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What a deal! Jokinen is a great player in post-season! No?

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Old
05-05-2008, 10:58 PM
  #87
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crack real cheap in ur area bud?

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05-05-2008, 11:05 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
1) Trust panthers fans and I on this one (And I saw like 7-8 panthers games last year), he really does suck on the RW.
2)Really? I did not know that, but considering he still has a lots of work to do to be able to reach the NHL, we'll not consider junior as a good field to evaluate whether or not he's a good LWer.
3) Probably the latter.. damn kovalev.
4)If you are rolling 4 lines like we are, and have 3 offensive lines, he is not wasting his potential or anything...
5) Amen.
1) Hehe ok fair enough
2) Sure, I agree, but he will have to be polyvalent to make the team in any way shape or form imo. Theres Fortier coming after him, Chipchura, Lapierre to fight as bottom 6 centers.
3)Kovalev
4)Thats a maybe, I would like this concept, but we would need to have a similar talent level across 3 offensives lines, this is the hard part.(And it can't really be done over the long term in todays NHL since player salaries on that 3rd line quickly become unmanageable from a cap perspective)

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05-05-2008, 11:06 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by phatfarmxxx View Post
What a deal! Jokinen is a great player in post-season! No?
Care to explain how do you know this?

Message for the wise, Jokinen did not play in the postseason yet. Blame it on him or the team, but it's impossible to know that atm.

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Old
05-05-2008, 11:09 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
I think this post is absolutely ridiculous myself.

Hockey is becoming nearly the same everywhere on the planet, in the last few years Canada is influencing the rest of the hockey world into a more physical style(like they with the trap before). The only remaining subclimate is in Russia where skill is a way of life, even there the game is changing towards a more Canadian style.

As for Canadians being "winners" and not Europeans, it's bullcrap. Perfect example of the usage of statistics for political means and I feel sorry to even read those kind of arguments. Please, Ovechkin, Lidstrom, Malkin, Federov do you have special label for them too? Or are they "exceptions", I could fill a page of exceptions. Care too look at Football where they could easily tell us we are just sitting ducks with no talents and character because we are/ have been statistically irrelevant in the history of the sport over the last 100 years?

Blame Petrov, Berezin etc. even Koivu all you want for the past 13 years, we probably just did 20 mistakes on selecting the good Europeans, exactly like we did at drafting like novices in the 90's a bunch of big kids from western Canada, with no character, not even reaching the NHL in most cases. I do remember a guy named Mats Naslund, maybe your too young for that.
Add a few more paragraphs concerning things nobody has previously said if it helps your vent. If you think that a tradeoff of Higgins and O'byrne for a player who has hardly played a meaningful game in his career is smart, great. I hope you're alone.

Listing star european players doesn't make a point or change the argument, the name RJ Umberger does.

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05-05-2008, 11:13 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
Add a few more paragraphs concerning things nobody has previously said if it helps your vent. If you think that a tradeoff of Higgins and O'byrne for a player who has hardly played a meaningful game in his career is smart, great. I hope you're alone.

Listing star european players doesn't make a point or change the argument, the name RJ Umberger does.
Obyrne played a meaningful game? Higgins scored 40 goals?
Oh I get it, Ovechkin, Lidstrom are star players, suddenly they are not Europeans soft.

Who is Johan Franzen?


Last edited by SOLR: 05-05-2008 at 11:19 PM.
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Old
05-05-2008, 11:17 PM
  #92
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Oh sorry man! this big center, Panthers captain is so powerfull that he NEVER go over the 82th Panthers game in a season. I'm not jus blaming him, but how can we give that much for a semi result? Semi because he only played in regular season. In Gainey's way, UFA is a better way than a young guns gift!

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05-05-2008, 11:23 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by phatfarmxxx View Post
Oh sorry man! this big center, Panthers captain is so powerfull that he NEVER go over the 82th Panthers game in a season. I'm not jus blaming him, but how can we give that much for a semi result? Semi because he only played in regular season. In Gainey's way, UFA is a better way than a young guns gift!
I'm gonna go out on a limb here (i'm ready to get flamed) and i'll say that hypothetically if Jokinen were to be a UFA this offseason, I think he would get same type money as Hossa would get.

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05-05-2008, 11:23 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by phatfarmxxx View Post
Oh sorry man! this big center, Panthers captain is so powerfull that he NEVER go over the 82th Panthers game in a season. I'm not jus blaming him, but how can we give that much for a semi result? Semi because he only played in regular season. In Gainey's way, UFA is a better way than a young guns gift!
In a team theres 50 players + management. When you trade a guy like Luongo for Allen, Bertuzzi and scrubs of this nature you end up missing the playoffs, often. Surprising?

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05-05-2008, 11:30 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Obyrne played a meaningful game? Higgins scored 40 goals?
Oh I get it, Ovechkin, Lidstrom are star players, suddenly they are not Europeans soft.

Who is Johan Franzen?
you're not even reading this thread, let alone trying to counter any arguments.

pine for you Olli Jokinen to your hearts content.

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05-05-2008, 11:31 PM
  #96
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In a team theres 50 players + management. When you trade a guy like Luongo for Allen, Bertuzzi and scrubs of this nature you end up missing the playoffs, often. Surprising?
Yup, the deal was Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan Allen and Alex Auld to the Florida Panthers for Roberto Luongo, Lukas Krajicek and a 6th round selection in 2006.

Funny to see that Florida is only left with Bryan Allen at the end of the day. Rumour has it that Luongo was just a throw in to get the deal done. It was really all about Krajicek and that 6th rounder

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05-05-2008, 11:51 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
you're not even reading this thread, let alone trying to counter any arguments.

pine for you Olli Jokinen to your hearts content.
What are they?! Those superb arguments?

RJ Umberger you were trying to point a north american guy with grit and heart, I replied by naming Johan Franzen.(wait wait wait hes a future superstar so he doesnt count right?).

You pointed out that trading Higgins and Obyrne for a guy who never achieved anything would be a mistake? I replied by questioning exactly what Higgins and Obyrne had accomplished.(rightfully so)

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05-06-2008, 12:19 AM
  #98
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Can we get the conversation back on what a team would look like with Jokinen, as opposed to whether Jokinen is the best addition?

Let's just accept that there are differing opinions on this and actually follow a thought through for once. There's a first time for everything.

So the situation as I see it, breaks down to the two following suggestions.

1) Higgins, O'Byrne and change*
2) Plekanec, O'Byrne and change*

* - change meaning stuff that won't impact the immediate roster

Here's a 3-page spreadsheet** showing the differences in cap hit between the two scenarios. They pretty much end up the same. The next table outlines them (scenario 3 is don't trade for Jokinen).

ScenarioCap LeftNeeds
1$5.5MTop 6 winger (filled by Plekanec?), #4/5 D
2$5.4M#4/5 D, 3rd line Center (filled by Chipchura?)
3$7.5MTop 6 player, Depth defenseman

** - The red figures are my projected cap hits for contracts that have yet to be negotiated. I try to overestimate by a bit because it's better to have more cap space available than expected, as opposed to the opposite.

Anyone have comments based on what's mentioned above?

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05-06-2008, 12:24 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Live Forever View Post
I think you're missing my point. It is not about if it is mathimatically possible to afford the players under a cap, it's more about if you are able to remain competitive with multiple expensive players that take up the majority of your cap leaving not much else for a supporting cast. That was the reason Tampa got rid of Richards, it simply wasn't working out to have the majority of their money spent on 3 forwards. We also derailed from the topic of our debate, but i'll use Gomez and Drury as an example. Why is it that you need to compare players now in order to make Richards' contract become reasonable. If you stick to what you've been saying all this time, the size of Richards' contract was a non issue in him getting the type of return he got. Now your arguement is well if Drury got $7.35 million per year, then Richards' contract @ $7.8 looks a lot better. Before you're arguement was more like Richards' @ 5 million or a Richards at $7.8 million makes no difference which I disagreed with.
Why would I argue with a false assumption...

Anyway, yes I got your point, but you may have difficulties to get mine, so I will state it more clearly...

When you have a top 2 pick in the 2008 draft (Stamkos, Bogosian, Doughty, etc), 15M cap space for 8 players (6 bottom six, and 2 top 6), a very good goaltender prospect (Ramo) and a marginal number 1(Holmqvist), 3 superstars (Vinny, Brad, Martin) and a star (Boyle), then YES, I assure you that you can remain competitive in the New Nhl, and for quite a while.

Don't forget that in 2006-7, the Lightning finished 7th in the Eastern Conference with the same roster as this year, minus major injuries...

Thus, adding a healthy Boyle, a top prospect in Stamkos, two-three good ufas Commodore, Huet & Demitra (Just an example), then yes you can remain competitive for a few seasons.

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05-06-2008, 12:35 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Can we get the conversation back on what a team would look like with Jokinen, as opposed to whether Jokinen is the best addition?

Let's just accept that there are differing opinions on this and actually follow a thought through for once. There's a first time for everything.

So the situation as I see it, breaks down to the two following suggestions.

1) Higgins, O'Byrne and change*
2) Plekanec, O'Byrne and change*

* - change meaning stuff that won't impact the immediate roster

Here's a 3-page spreadsheet** showing the differences in cap hit between the two scenarios. They pretty much end up the same. The next table outlines them (scenario 3 is don't trade for Jokinen).

ScenarioCap LeftNeeds
1$5.5MTop 6 winger (filled by Plekanec?), #4/5 D
2$5.4M#4/5 D, 3rd line Center (filled by Chipchura?)
3$7.5MTop 6 player, Depth defenseman

** - The red figures are my projected cap hits for contracts that have yet to be negotiated. I try to overestimate by a bit because it's better to have more cap space available than expected, as opposed to the opposite.

Anyone have comments based on what's mentioned above?
Good post,

If theres a player I wouldnt trade its Plekanec, I think hes showing more consistency than Higgins for the moment at least.

Personally, I'm interested in Jokinen, I'm ready to trade Higgins, but the value of those "change" assets are what makes it or breaks it for me.(The cost gotta be right.) I do have some reservations about Jokinen character myself, but Higgins is in that same 50-50 boat for me.

Jokinen-Koivu-SK
AK-Plekanec-Kovalev
Latendresse-Chipchura-Lapierre (Smolinski was signed 1 year for a reason, chip even played plenty of NHL games at the beginning of the season)
Stewart-Begin-Kostopoulos

Markov-Komo
Hamrlik-Gorges
Bouillon-(Jokinen trade return?)
Brisebois

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