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Round 2, Vote 10

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Old
05-07-2008, 12:41 PM
  #1
FissionFire
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Round 2, Vote 10

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
  • Final voting will occur for two (2) days by private message
  • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines I'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
1. Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
2. Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" etc. when debating.
3. Please treat other debaters with respect
4. Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
5. Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (26):
amnesiac, arrbez, BM67, cottonking, DaveG, EagleBelfour, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, MXD, Nalyd Psycho, overpass, pappyline, pitseleh, pnep, Pwnasaurus, raleh, reckoning, seventieslord, Shlomo, Thornton_19, tomi2, Transplanted Caper, Wings4Life, Weztex

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone wishing to participate who has not submitted a list yet will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

On that note, I hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

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Old
05-07-2008, 12:46 PM
  #2
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*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 8 will begin now and debates will run through Thursday, 5/15. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Thursday 5/15, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters now. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 10 will be for places 46 through 50 on the Top 100 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Max Bentley
Dit Clapper
Paul Coffey
Marcel Dionne
Tim Horton
Brett Hull
Frank Mahovlich
Joe Malone
Richard "Dickie" Moore
Pierre Pilote
Henri Richard

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05-07-2008, 12:52 PM
  #3
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Notables:

* Pierre Pilote didn't appear on one list
* Max Bentley didn't appear on two lists
* Henri Richard and Joe Malone are the only two newly-eligible players to appear on a list outside of the top 100

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Old
05-07-2008, 01:15 PM
  #4
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My top five (from the top of my head on my list):

1. Max Bentley: It's about friggin' time. Best offensive player on the list. Great skater and stick-handler. Fearless in offensive zone, but durable for a little guy. Worth noting: 46 points in 51 post-season games might be the best clip of anyone from his era.
2. Henri Richard: Had him too high on my list, but no doubt in my mind he's a top 50 player ever. Key player on 11 Cup champions. Outstanding two-way player.
3. Paul Coffey: Love him or hate him, no doubting he's one of the most unique players ever. And that's a good thing.
4. Frank Mahovlich: Nobody eligible this time did more. Key role on five Cup champs. Beat Hull for two first-team all-star births.

Trying to wrack my brain for the No. 5 guy on my list. I think it was the fearless, well-rounded, award-winning, champion LW Dickie Moore.

Taylor, Chelios, Conacher, Cook and Durnan were voted in last round.

More to come later today.

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05-07-2008, 01:24 PM
  #5
ushvinder
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I fint it so funny how kharlamov is so high yet we cant even vote for stastny yet, this is a joke. Peter Stastny was the top non nhl player for 4 straight years and dominated the nhl for a whole decade, yet we are gonna rank him lower than someone that only played exhibition nhl games.

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05-07-2008, 01:43 PM
  #6
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I fint it so funny how kharlamov is so high yet we cant even vote for stastny yet, this is a joke. Peter Stastny was the top non nhl player for 4 straight years and dominated the nhl for a whole decade, yet we are gonna rank him lower than someone that only played exhibition nhl games.
Maybe it would have been easier if you'd participated in the process which got to this point.

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05-07-2008, 02:17 PM
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If Kharlamov was so great, then why was tretiak the one that was getting all the soviet mvp trophies?

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05-07-2008, 02:33 PM
  #8
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If Stastny was so great, then why were Hlinka, Martinec, and Novy winning all the Golden Hockey Stick awards over him?

(This isn't meant to be a slight at Stastny, but I'm just trying to point out the faulty logic)

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05-07-2008, 02:34 PM
  #9
FissionFire
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
If Kharlamov was so great, then why was tretiak the one that was getting all the soviet mvp trophies?
Where were all these opinions during the Kharlamov portion of the debate? You sit strangely silent, seemingly refuse to read ANY of the prior voting threads to see the thoughts and reasons voters had for their choices, and continually attack the credibility of both the voters and the project. I'm not sure what agenda you are trying to promote, but try to confine the discussion to the players actually up for voting and stop trying to derail the thread on tangents discussing players either already on the list or not even eligible yet. Players already on the list can be discussed on the Top 100 thread or in the relevent discussion thread for the voting. Players not yet eligible can be debated when they come up. What does Kharlamov or Stastny have to do with Vote 10? Stop trying to hijack the thread.

I'm looking forward to seeing your list and discussions when we update the list next year. You seem to have some strong opinions and discussion ideas on the issue. I'd hate to think you are simply trying to stir the pot and when the time comes to get involved and be part of the process you won't be found.

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Old
05-07-2008, 03:55 PM
  #10
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Where were all these opinions during the Kharlamov portion of the debate? You sit strangely silent, seemingly refuse to read ANY of the prior voting threads to see the thoughts and reasons voters had for their choices, and continually attack the credibility of both the voters and the project. I'm not sure what agenda you are trying to promote, but try to confine the discussion to the players actually up for voting and stop trying to derail the thread on tangents discussing players either already on the list or not even eligible yet. Players already on the list can be discussed on the Top 100 thread or in the relevent discussion thread for the voting. Players not yet eligible can be debated when they come up. What does Kharlamov or Stastny have to do with Vote 10? Stop trying to hijack the thread.

I'm looking forward to seeing your list and discussions when we update the list next year. You seem to have some strong opinions and discussion ideas on the issue. I'd hate to think you are simply trying to stir the pot and when the time comes to get involved and be part of the process you won't be found.
No, I just simply believe Stastny is the more accomplished player and he has the resume to back it up. Stastny has the international credenitals and the nhl credentials. What are Kharli's credentials, a 7 game summit series? Winning a gold medal against a bunch of junior level players?

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05-07-2008, 05:21 PM
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Paul Coffey is absolutely the best defenseman on the list.
Max Bentley is absolutely the best forward on the list.

No opinions will have those two anything but 1-2 on my list.

As for the rest, I'm open for debate.

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Old
05-07-2008, 05:32 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
No, I just simply believe Stastny is the more accomplished player and he has the resume to back it up. Stastny has the international credenitals and the nhl credentials. What are Kharli's credentials, a 7 game summit series? Winning a gold medal against a bunch of junior level players?
Don't you continually downgrade the achievements of many 70's era NHL stars because Soviet legends like Kharlamov were stuck in Russia? But now that it's convenient, you sarcastically dismiss Kharlamov's credentials. I'll remember that the next time I need to defend Clarke or Esposito.

Back on topic, I'm eagerly awaiting the arguments for Max Bentley, people have been campaigning for his inclusion for quite a while now. I'm also glad to see Joe Malone up for debate as well.

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05-07-2008, 05:43 PM
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ushvinder
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Don't you continually downgrade the achievements of many 70's era NHL stars because Soviet legends like Kharlamov were stuck in Russia? But now that it's convenient, you sarcastically dismiss Kharlamov's credentials. I'll remember that the next time I need to defend Clarke or Esposito.

Back on topic, I'm eagerly awaiting the arguments for Max Bentley, people have been campaigning for his inclusion for quite a while now. I'm also glad to see Joe Malone up for debate as well.
Yeah I do downgrade thier dominance because Petrov, Maltsev, Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Tretiak, and Balderis were all playing in another league. That still doesnt change the fact that Stastny has the credentials on nhl and international level, while Kharlamov only has it on the international level.

If Valeri's international credentials are so important, then why does everybody completely ignore Pavel Bure's international credentials. I mean are we supposed to forget that Bure had a dominant season with the Red Army in 1991? Are we supposed to forget that from 89-91 Pavel Bure was putting up monster numbers at the world juniors and world championships for the Soviet National Team. I think there is a reason why Lindros and Bure were dubbed as the best non-nhl players in 1991?

On top of that Pavel Bure has 5 fifty+ goal seasons in the nhl and was a finalist for the hart trophy twice, yet he probably wont even be chosen for the top 100.

I mean Pavel Bure is third all-time in points that the world juniors with 39 points in 21 games. At the world championships, he has about 22 points and on top of that you can add his 1991 season with the red army, yet people try and act like Pavel was only an nhl player.

Only Peter Forsberg had better credentials at the junior championships.


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05-07-2008, 05:59 PM
  #14
Kyle McMahon
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I mean are we supposed to forget that Bure had a dominant season with the Red Army in 1991? Are we supposed to forget that from 89-91 Pavel Bure was putting up monster numbers at the world juniors and world championships for the Soviet National Team. I think there is a reason why Lindros and Bure were dubbed as the best non-nhl players in 1991?
We don't need to look at Bure's international accomplishments, we got a good look at him for 10 years in the NHL. But this is off topic, so I'll argue it no more in this thread.

Dickie Moore: I'm not surprised that he's up for voting, but I think it's a little early. I think I had him and Peter Forsberg right beside each other on my list, and that was done intentionally. Their careers look very similar to me, both were dominant when healthy, but struggled with injuries throughout their careers. Moore has two Art Ross, Forsberg has one plus a Hart, and both were great in the playoffs. Was Moore's career recent enough that it's fair to punish him a little for longevity issues? About nine seasons, not glaringly short by any means, but guys were starting to play longer by the 60's (I think).

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05-07-2008, 06:09 PM
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Nalyd Psycho
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Guys, stop feeding the troll.

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05-07-2008, 06:42 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I fint it so funny how kharlamov is so high yet we cant even vote for stastny yet, this is a joke. Peter Stastny was the top non nhl player for 4 straight years and dominated the nhl for a whole decade, yet we are gonna rank him lower than someone that only played exhibition nhl games.
Hummmm.... Stastny was in my Top-10 not available yet. He's now probably in my Top-5, and if not, he's 6th. As for where the others ranked him... Well, I think it would be absolutely faulty to have him after Dale Hawerchuck.

This said, some of the guys added had won Hart Awards (Bentley - even if some would say it wasn't exactly the highest caliber the league ever had, it was still very decent -, Hull), Art Ross Awards (Moore, setting the record for the most points in a season by the way) or both. The other guys are Joe Malone, who wasn't there anyway when the award was created, who had the record for the most goals in a season until the war years (and was probably broken by Maurice Richard, unless somebody reached 44 prior to Richard that year) and who's 2nd in scoring in the NHA (the guy before him, Lalonde, is in the Top-100 since a while), and Pierre Pilote, widely regarded as the best D-Men of the '60ies when D-Mens weren't winning the Hart anyways.

Stastny was hampered by the fact he played a few years in Slovakia, and then had Gretzky as a competitor. But let's put it this way : the closest competitor Gretzky had for the a single Hart award in his stretch was... a guy who has absolutely no chance to make the Top-300. I don't have the numbers (but I could watch).... well, I'd like to know when (or if) Stastny ever finished 2nd.

I had him pretty high in my list, but except for Dit Clapper (which I really seem to under-appreciate anyways), I don't see him being a better player than anybody there... at all. (Yes, I've tweaked my original list a little. I'm learning as well in this thing.)

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05-07-2008, 06:56 PM
  #17
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We don't need to look at Bure's international accomplishments, we got a good look at him for 10 years in the NHL. But this is off topic, so I'll argue it no more in this thread.

Dickie Moore: I'm not surprised that he's up for voting, but I think it's a little early. I think I had him and Peter Forsberg right beside each other on my list, and that was done intentionally. Their careers look very similar to me, both were dominant when healthy, but struggled with injuries throughout their careers. Moore has two Art Ross, Forsberg has one plus a Hart, and both were great in the playoffs. Was Moore's career recent enough that it's fair to punish him a little for longevity issues? About nine seasons, not glaringly short by any means, but guys were starting to play longer by the 60's (I think).
We should look at Bure's international success because Forsberg and Lindros are the only post 90s players IMO, that had a better pre-nhl career than pavel bure. Pavel Bure is the only Russian ever to lead the red army, the soviet national team and the nhl in goal scoring, thats it. Not mogilny, fedorov, ovechkin, yashin, malkin or any of the pre-nhl russians.

The only downfall on Bure's international career was that he wasn't allowed to play in the 1991 Canada Cup and I know he would have shined there too.

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05-07-2008, 07:05 PM
  #18
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We don't need to look at Bure's international accomplishments, we got a good look at him for 10 years in the NHL. But this is off topic, so I'll argue it no more in this thread.

Dickie Moore: I'm not surprised that he's up for voting, but I think it's a little early. I think I had him and Peter Forsberg right beside each other on my list, and that was done intentionally. Their careers look very similar to me, both were dominant when healthy, but struggled with injuries throughout their careers. Moore has two Art Ross, Forsberg has one plus a Hart, and both were great in the playoffs. Was Moore's career recent enough that it's fair to punish him a little for longevity issues? About nine seasons, not glaringly short by any means, but guys were starting to play longer by the 60's (I think).
I think he falls somewhere between both for longevity... Plus, I've never really understood why he didn't won the Hart in 59 (but again, I wasn't there).

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05-07-2008, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post

If Valeri's international credentials are so important, then why does everybody completely ignore Pavel Bure's international credentials. I mean are we supposed to forget that Bure had a dominant season with the Red Army in 1991? Are we supposed to forget that from 89-91 Pavel Bure was putting up monster numbers at the world juniors and world championships for the Soviet National Team. I think there is a reason why Lindros and Bure were dubbed as the best non-nhl players in 1991?
Dominance in the Juniors is completely irrelevant for this list, me thinks.

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05-07-2008, 07:09 PM
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Dominance in the Juniors is completely irrelevant for this list, me thinks.
What about the 1991 season in the RSL and the world championships?

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05-07-2008, 07:17 PM
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Guys, stop feeding the troll.
Bingo. He's on my ignore list. Pay him no mind. Just like bilros and chooch, he can't articulate an argument, he contradicts himself, and facts have no place in his arguments.

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05-07-2008, 07:19 PM
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What about the 1991 season in the RSL and the world championships?
Well, they kinda add weight in the balance. The Juniors are COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT IMO.

But considering he couldn't beat Andrei Khomoutov to it a year earlier( to Bure's defense, he was young, and to Khomoutov's defense, he was gone in 1991), and considering Nik Drozdetsky did the exact same thing than Bure in 1984... only with MUCH better competition than Bure (nevermind Drozdetsky was older, it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT for this list), and that I don't think somebody really considered Drozdetsky worth of a position...

Well... was was your point about Bure anyways? I mean it's not like I could have figured out. You really think he should be amongst the candidates? He's way behind Stastny, who shouldn't be here at this point.

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05-07-2008, 07:22 PM
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Well, they kinda add weight in the balance. The Juniors are COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT IMO.

But considering he couldn't beat Andrei Khomoutov to it a year earlier( to Bure's defense, he was young, and to Khomoutov's defense, he was gone in 1991), and considering Nik Drozdetsky did the exact same thing than Bure in 1984... only with MUCH better competition than Bure (nevermind Drozdetsky was older, it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT for this list), and that I don't think somebody really considered Drozdetsky worth of a position...
I've always wondered, why wasn't Dzordetsky on the 87 russian team for Canada cup, that always puzzles me. Vladimir Myshkin and several other players weren't on that team either, like Helmuts Balderis.

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05-07-2008, 07:47 PM
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My top five for this round...

1. Max Bentley. No doubt about it. Magic Max has been my top-rated player for a long, long time. Outside of the top guys (Gretzky, Mario, Beliveau, Morenz, Mikita, maybe Espo), I think Bentley's the best offensive centre ever. He rates below guys like Clarke, Trottier, Messier and Schmidt on my list because Bentley doesn't have their all-round game. Bentley was a magnificent skater and passer. He might be the best stick-handler of all-time. He wasn't big, but he was fearless in the offensive zone. And remarkably durable - he missed 10 games from 46 to 52. Two Art Ross Trophies. Led the playoffs in scoring in 51, and assists in 48. His 46 points in 51 post-season games is one of the best ratios for his generation. Possibly the best. A key player on three Cup champions.

2. Paul Coffey. Love him or hate him, it's time to look past personal feelings. He's probably the most unique player remaining on the list. A sensational talent. Magnificent skater. World-class creativity. The second best offensive defenceman of all-time. There are deficiencies in his defensive game and physical game, especially when you compare him with the other defencemen selected. But he brought so much in the offensive zone, he was a key player on two Cup champions, he won two more Cups in a secondary role due to injuries. He holds the record for points by a defenceman in a post-season. And he was a three-time Norris winner (against Bourque and others), and an eight-time all-star.

3. Henri Richard. It's about friggin' time. The sequel. You play this game to win. You want to be remembered for what you did in the playoffs. Nobody won more championships than this guy. I admit I had him too high on my original list, but there's no doubt that he should be a top 50 player ever. Phile Esposito said he was the top centre he ever played against due to his hockey sense and two-way game. Better than Beliveau, Mikita and Clarke. Incredibly smart player and a strong leader. Two-time leader in assists. Top 10 in scoring seven times. Put up good numbers in the O6 era. All while playing a terrific two-way game.

4. Frank Mahovlich. An outstanding offensive player. Four times he finished in the top two in goals. Twice he beat Bobby Hull for a first-team all-star birth at LW. Beat Bucyk for second team honours several times. Played a key role on five of six Cup championships that he was a part of. Led the playoffs in scoring in 71. No. 1 in assists in 64.

5. Dickie Moore. I think he's good enough to be voted in at this point. Two-time Art Ross winner. (Pretty good competition at that point). I belive he was second in post-season points in the 50s. A big part of those great Montreal teams in the late 50s. Led the playoffs in scoring in 54 and 59. In addition to his skill, he played a gritty, competitive aggressive game. Longevity is the only reason he wasn't higher on my list. Our last memories are good: in his final year with St. Louis in 68, at age 37, after a three-year absence, he led the Blues in post-season scoring. Greats deliver in the playoffs. Moore certainly did that. And his peak is outstanding.

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05-07-2008, 08:38 PM
  #25
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Bingo. He's on my ignore list.
Fortunately since everybody keeps quoting him, you'll still get to read his wisdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FissionFire
Notables:

* Pierre Pilote didn't appear on one list
* Max Bentley didn't appear on two lists
Anybody going to fess up to these? I'm just curious if they were unintentional oversights or if there's a legitimate case against them.

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