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Dawes, Prucha, Tyutin, Sanguinetti and a First

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Old
05-06-2008, 02:27 PM
  #101
BrooklynRangersFan
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Originally Posted by The Falconer View Post
Not nearly enough.

There is no certainty Cherepanov is coming over until he is inked to a contract--even then Russian players have just jumped ship and returned to Europe before. You're not going to trade the face of your franchise unless you know for sure that the centerpiece will be in uniform.

Prucha? Seems like he had trouble cracking your top six this season.
Dawes? Nice player, but not an impact or elite guy in my opinion.
Tyutin? Another decent complimentary player but not a franchise builder.

To get a 25 year old Kovalchuk signed for two more years at a very reasonable price ($6 cap hit) you're going to have to offer two sure fire franchise building blocks and other picks/prospects. Most of you don't want to talk about Staal but he absolutely would have to be in the conversation.

Go back and look at what other players traded in their peak brought. Gretzky brought Jimmy Carson who was a top 10 scorer and still young at the time.

When Tkachuk was dealt from Phoenix to St. Louis he brought three quality NHL forwards or very strong prospects.

I myself have said that the Thrashers should explore what Kovalchuk would bring--just because they need to expand their base of young talent to build a real contender--but none of these offers entices me. But the Thrashers are not stuck with a traded demand (and even when they were they managed to get Hossa for Heatley which was a very good return for being in a potentially bad situation.)

Look a two month RENTAL of Hossa came at the cost of a 1st rounder, 1st round prospect, 1st round NHL roster player and 3rd round NHL roster player. That's the starting point for trade offers.

Let's face it the price for acquiring a franchise player entering his peak is simply too high for most of you. On the other hand if you're serious Staal and Dubinsky need to enter into the conversation.
I think you and I may have had this debate on your board, but I fundamentally believe that the bolded point doesn't support your argument - rather it undermines it. I mean, heck, if where a guy is drafted is the crux of his value, we'll center our offer for Kovie around Hugh Jessiman, a first rounder from the legendary class of '03.

The fact of the matter is that if you ignore the "Drafted: rd/pick" section of the players' profiles, Atlanta traded:

Hossa and
a 29 year old 3rd liner

and got back:

a low (4th from the bottom) 1st round pick
a prospect who is teetering on the edge of bust
a 25 year old 3rd liner, and
a 24 year old 3rd liner

Now I grant you it was for a rental. And I grant you that Dupuis is what he is, whereas Armstrong and Christensen could take another step forward and become 40-50 pt players. And, lastly, Esposito could reverse the three year trend that took him from consensus projected #1 overall pick the year prior to his draft year to a mediocre prospect (98 pts at 17 years old to 79 pts at 18 to 69 pts at 19 in the QMJHL) to become a legit NHL scorer down the road.

But the idea that the Pens paid a king's ransom for Hossa & Dupuis is just not true.

And while I recognize that Kovie would come at a higher price, I think that the idea that compensation starts with Staal and Dubinsky is likewise untrue, in my opinion.


Last edited by BrooklynRangersFan: 05-06-2008 at 02:43 PM.
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Old
05-06-2008, 02:27 PM
  #102
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package in the thread title would definitely land you Jokinen.


and imo, Staal and Henke are the only two untouchables on our roster.

I like Dubi a lot, but there's a good chance that right now, his value is as high as it will ever be.

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05-06-2008, 07:32 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
If you want to land a world class player you can't expect someone to take your spare parts. If you want to take Staal off the table, just about everyone else has to be part of the discussion. 17 Hollwegs doesn't = 1 Kovalchuk.
I think what alot of us are saying is we don't want that. Or more specifically Kovalchuk or Gaborik. The debate isn't the price. It's high and it may or may not be enough, but in th end the debate is still about whether or not the Rangers want Kovalchuk or Gaborik.

Kovalchuk isn't available. Some may have missed it, but he is the only ticket draw in Atlanta now. If they trade Kovalchuk for a package of kids, they may as well put the for sale sign up and pack up their equipment. Gaborik might be available, for a high price, but after his playoff performance who wants him? He's already going around saying he only wants to sign in a place that will sign Demitra as well. We don't need a tempermental player trying to be GM who flakes in the postseason.

Look, the correct way to build a cup winner is slower than this move. You build the core, then you add the extra ingredients. Pittsburg didn't trade for Hossa so he could be the centerpiece of the team, it was to compliment the players already there. Even the Flyers who were huge movers and shakers over the last few years are building around their core youth (Carter, Richards, Umberger, Gagne). Briere was brought in to play with Gagne and Knuble, they didn't fit those guys in afterwards to make the Briere move work.

Look around, no cup winners were built from the ground up with 1 trade or 1 signing. And that is what the majority of the Kovalchuk wishers are trying to do. Even if we land him, we still don't have the players around him to win it. Not yet.

All of us are willing to make a huge move when the time is right, now isn't the time. Take the summer off and get over the let down. Too much thinking based on emotions.

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05-06-2008, 07:46 PM
  #104
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I think what alot of us are saying is we don't want that. Or more specifically Kovalchuk or Gaborik. The debate isn't the price. It's high and it may or may not be enough, but in th end the debate is still about whether or not the Rangers want Kovalchuk or Gaborik.

Kovalchuk isn't available. Some may have missed it, but he is the only ticket draw in Atlanta now. If they trade Kovalchuk for a package of kids, they may as well put the for sale sign up and pack up their equipment. Gaborik might be available, for a high price, but after his playoff performance who wants him? He's already going around saying he only wants to sign in a place that will sign Demitra as well. We don't need a tempermental player trying to be GM who flakes in the postseason.

Look, the correct way to build a cup winner is slower than this move. You build the core, then you add the extra ingredients. Pittsburg didn't trade for Hossa so he could be the centerpiece of the team, it was to compliment the players already there. Even the Flyers who were huge movers and shakers over the last few years are building around their core youth (Carter, Richards, Umberger, Gagne). Briere was brought in to play with Gagne and Knuble, they didn't fit those guys in afterwards to make the Briere move work.

Look around, no cup winners were built from the ground up with 1 trade or 1 signing. And that is what the majority of the Kovalchuk wishers are trying to do. Even if we land him, we still don't have the players around him to win it. Not yet.

All of us are willing to make a huge move when the time is right, now isn't the time. Take the summer off and get over the let down. Too much thinking based on emotions.
The ONLY reason why Hossa is not the center piece of the team, is because the Penguins were crap and tanked two seasons to draft Crosby and Malkin.

The Rangers don't have a Crosby or a Malkin. But they can trade for a Kovalchuk. Or sign a Hossa.

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05-06-2008, 08:02 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
The ONLY reason why Hossa is not the center piece of the team, is because the Penguins were crap and tanked two seasons to draft Crosby and Malkin.

The Rangers don't have a Crosby or a Malkin. But they can trade for a Kovalchuk. Or sign a Hossa.
Actually Pittsburgh tanked one season to get Malkin and then got really "lucky" with the lottery balls after the lockout to get Crosby if you want to get technical about it.

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05-06-2008, 08:06 PM
  #106
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If the Mets can get Santana for hardly anything IMO, the Rangers can sure get Kovy or Gabs for just as much or less. Kovy is in a contract year anyway coming up. I met him at the Garden this season, he was sitting behind me in the Brian Leetch Retirement game where he was suspended from the previous game (which happened to be against the Rangers too)

I'd do it for Kovy.
Well, MLB has no cap, NHL does. Plus, you are seeing the problem now. Mets have no depth for any pitching or batting help because they traded the farm away.

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05-06-2008, 10:26 PM
  #107
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Well, MLB has no cap, NHL does. Plus, you are seeing the problem now. Mets have no depth for any pitching or batting help because they traded the farm away.
The Mets do have a very very good farm and didn't trade away there best prospects or best younger players (Wright, Reyes)...

It can be done. This is New York. Players wanna play here.

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05-06-2008, 10:26 PM
  #108
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I have spell check, do you have logic check?
Hooked on phonics worked for me.

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05-07-2008, 04:49 PM
  #109
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The Mets do have a very very good farm and didn't trade away there best prospects or best younger players (Wright, Reyes)...

It can be done. This is New York. Players wanna play here.
What?? I watch or listen about them everyday. Everyone agrees that there is nothing at the Farm if Perez, Palfrey or Predo continues to struggle. Of course, they are not going to trade away Wright or Reyes, just like Flyers are not going to trade away Richards or Carter for Kovy. Same for Rangers, they are not going to trade Staal for Kovy.

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05-07-2008, 05:22 PM
  #110
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What?? I watch or listen about them everyday. Everyone agrees that there is nothing at the Farm if Perez, Palfrey or Predo continues to struggle. Of course, they are not going to trade away Wright or Reyes, just like Flyers are not going to trade away Richards or Carter for Kovy. Same for Rangers, they are not going to trade Staal for Kovy.
Yeah, we have exactly one stud prospect: Fernando Martinez. That's it. The rest of our farm system is crap. The reason we got Santana is because neither the Red Sox or the Yankees felt like giving up a huge chunk of their farm systems to get Santana. Lets face it, the Red Sox and Yankees have way, way, way better farm systems than us. If we had the kind of talent in our farm systems that they do, then we wouldn't be in such a bind right now. Look at all that young pitching. We didn't mind giving up what we gave up to get Santana because we didn't have anything to give up in the first place compared to the Sox and Yanks. Also it helped that nobody else was willing to pay Santana other than those three organizations, which doesn't happen in hockey with the cap.

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05-08-2008, 01:16 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
Yeah, we have exactly one stud prospect: Fernando Martinez. That's it. The rest of our farm system is crap. The reason we got Santana is because neither the Red Sox or the Yankees felt like giving up a huge chunk of their farm systems to get Santana. Lets face it, the Red Sox and Yankees have way, way, way better farm systems than us. If we had the kind of talent in our farm systems that they do, then we wouldn't be in such a bind right now. Look at all that young pitching. We didn't mind giving up what we gave up to get Santana because we didn't have anything to give up in the first place compared to the Sox and Yanks. Also it helped that nobody else was willing to pay Santana other than those three organizations, which doesn't happen in hockey with the cap.
Agree, when in cap system, it is important to find the balance between talent and depth. All stars line up guarantees getting no championship. NE Pats are model citizen in this regard. It is important to have gusto trading away players when they still have value. This way it provides a constant stream of talent to compete year after year.

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05-08-2008, 01:39 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
The ONLY reason why Hossa is not the center piece of the team, is because the Penguins were crap and tanked two seasons to draft Crosby and Malkin.

The Rangers don't have a Crosby or a Malkin. But they can trade for a Kovalchuk. Or sign a Hossa.
Forget the 'why' for now... it's irrelevant how they got they players. The fact of the matter is the Penguins do have them.

I'm just pointing out the fact that teams win cups by building from the ground up. You can certainly go out and buy your stars or empty your prospect pool to get them. It's just that there isn't much of a history of teams winning cups by creating their core over night. You build the core and then you add the final pieces when you are on the cusp. I'm all for getting the "Hossa" or "Kovalchuck", just not now. We can get them and make ourselves thin somewhere else and not win a cup anytime soon.

I just don't see the sense of giving away so many assets if it won't win us the cup. We'll make the move and simply be competitive for the next 5 years. Getting 1 more player right now will not make us contenders. That is putting too much on old shoulders. The young core might carry us into contention but not yet. The timing is wrong.

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05-09-2008, 12:11 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
Yeah, we have exactly one stud prospect: Fernando Martinez. That's it. The rest of our farm system is crap. The reason we got Santana is because neither the Red Sox or the Yankees felt like giving up a huge chunk of their farm systems to get Santana. Lets face it, the Red Sox and Yankees have way, way, way better farm systems than us. If we had the kind of talent in our farm systems that they do, then we wouldn't be in such a bind right now. Look at all that young pitching. We didn't mind giving up what we gave up to get Santana because we didn't have anything to give up in the first place compared to the Sox and Yanks. Also it helped that nobody else was willing to pay Santana other than those three organizations, which doesn't happen in hockey with the cap.
I wasn't saying the Mets have a great farm system, what I'm saying is the best didn't give up that much to land what is/was considered the best pitcher in baseball. Santana was due a contract and Kovy is due one soon too. You have take these things into account when making a deal. If Kovy wants out or Atlanta doesn't feel like giving Kovy the max it could very well mean he might fall into the Rangers laps for less than what Kovy is equal to in terms of talent or prospects. As in the Santana deal the Mets didn't give up Wright (Staal) or Reyes (Hanks) they gave up decent prospects (Jessiman, Dawes, Bourret)..

IT can be done if all the right chips fall into place just like Jagr for Carter or Joe Thornton wanting out of Boston and them wanting to send him anywhere but the east coast.

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