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Discussion about Sundin today After Maurice firing.

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Old
05-08-2008, 11:46 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
So you disagree and it's pathetic? Interesting.

Sundin hasn't won a single thing in his long career. HOFer for sure, but that's based on regular season numbers. Not on cups. You really lose credibility when you let your Sundin-love cloud your judgement.

Clutch is scoring 26 points in 23 games and leading your team to the Stanley Cup like Brad Richards. Clutch is a 2.14 GAA in the playoffs leading your team to the Cup like Cam Ward.

Clutch ISN'T scoring a game winning goal in game 75 of the season to move from 13th to 10th in your conference. The guy never made it to the Stanley Cup Finals. Never. Not once. How clutch is that?
Hasn't won anything... I'd take an Olympic Gold Medal......

As far as the NHL playoffs go, one guy being clutch still needs the rest of the guys around him to help too.... No one player has ever won the cup on his ow

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05-08-2008, 11:46 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
So you disagree and it's pathetic? Interesting.

Sundin hasn't won a single thing in his long career. HOFer for sure, but that's based on regular season numbers. Not on cups. You really lose credibility when you let your Sundin-love cloud your judgement.

Clutch is scoring 26 points in 23 games and leading your team to the Stanley Cup like Brad Richards. Clutch is a 2.14 GAA in the playoffs leading your team to the Cup like Cam Ward.

Clutch ISN'T scoring a game winning goal in game 75 of the season to move from 13th to 10th in your conference. The guy never made it to the Stanley Cup Finals. Never. Not once. How clutch is that?

That's not the point. TEAMS win Stanley Cups. He's never had the supporting cast, and thinking that he can win it by himself, and that is the definition of clutch, is stupid.

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05-08-2008, 11:54 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by yarfangor View Post
He said he wants to play his remaining years in Toronto. He said he doesn't have much time left in the NHL so he might retire within 2 years. So why would we want a guy who would only play 2 seasons with us at a sub-par level, and why would he go to a rival team when he loves his current team?
Sundin has never said, definitively, that he wants to play his remaining years in Toronto. He said he didn't want to be traded away from Toronto to be a rent-a-player for another team. There's a world of difference between that and signing with a different club as an unrestricted free agent.

As for why would he go to a rival team when he "loves" his current team... Well, this should be obvious. His current team is awful, and it seems pretty clear they will be even worse next season as they are rumoured to be purging salary meaning the likes of Kubina, McCabe, Tucker, Blake, etc might be leaving town. Look at the Marlies roster ... it's not like there are a lot of options there that can effectively replace those guys.

It wouldn't make much sense for Sundin to resign with the Maple Leafs in their current state.

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05-08-2008, 11:56 AM
  #79
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Sundin grew up a Habs fan with another Mats as his idol, Naslund...

It's definitely not out of the question that he leaves Toronto and goes elsewhere. And there is no better place than MTL.

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05-08-2008, 11:57 AM
  #80
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74 points in 83 playoff games sucks apparently.

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05-08-2008, 12:00 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Sundin clutch? How can you gauge that? He has never won a single thing in his entire career.
Except when he captained Sweden to an Olympic Gold Medal.

Duh.


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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
He had an opportunity to prove that by allowing himself to be traded (and help Toronto with 2-3 young players and probably Stamkos), but Mats is all about Mats. Simple as that. The guy isn't even married and he doesn't have a family. Why couldn't he move for 2 months to win a cup? Winning and warrior playoff hockey aren't a part of who the guy is. It's pretty obvious. No thanks.
Mats earned the right to not be moved. Earned it. Whatever his reasons for not wanting to me moved are irrelevant. Personally I respect that he doesn't want to be a hired gun, he wants to earn a Cup, be part of a team from start to finish. As the captain of his club, he didn't feel the right move was to abandon them for greener pastures while they were fighting for their playoff lives. In my eyes that is class, leadership and loyalty. People always rail against the lack of loyalty in sports. In this case, Sundin was criticized - in some cases by his own fanbase - for being loyal not just to the organization, but to the guys in the room he represents as captain.

The real issue is, why did Cliff Fletcher go public with the team's interest in trading him and make Sundin have to publicly say he won't waive his clause? That was incredibly disrespectful to their captain. It should have been a private conversation, Mats says no thanks, and Fletcher tells the media he has no interest in trading him.

He was owed at least that.

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05-08-2008, 12:03 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post

The real issue is, why did Cliff Fletcher go public with the team's interest in trading him and make Sundin have to publicly say he won't waive his clause? That was incredibly disrespectful to their captain. It should have been a private conversation, Mats says no thanks, and Fletcher tells the media he has no interest in trading him.

He was owed at least that.
At the time I thought it was to embarras Sundin so he would leave, but why would Fletcher what him gone from the team?

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05-08-2008, 12:08 PM
  #83
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At the time I thought it was to embarras Sundin so he would leave, but why would Fletcher what him gone from the team?
Because Fletcher's agenda was simple, purge payroll, stockpile draft picks and prospects to make that mess more attractive to potential GMs.

It's much easier for Fletcher - a short term hired gun - to come in and strip the franchise bare, because he doesn't care what the fanbase or media says.

If a new GM came in and his first order of business was to buyout a popular player or make a tough choice like trading McCabe for a draft pick, etc, that puts the pressure, and the ravenous media, on the new guy right out of the gate. (Torontonians might recall the ****-storm that was stirred up in John Ferguson's first week on the job when he said he had no interest in re-signing the gimpy-kneed Doug Gilmour.)

The idea was Fletcher could come in and make a lot of unpopular but neccessary moves to set it up to hand the keys to a new GM who could go about the task of rebuilding the organization. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way.

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05-08-2008, 12:14 PM
  #84
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I hope Gainey goes after Sundin in the off-season. We could use a guy like him on our team. Sundin makes things happen on the ice....plain and simple and thats the kind of guy we need in order to go anywhere in the playoffs.

Since he plays for the Leafs....I have no choice but to hate the guy, but if he were to sign with the Habs....I'd soon change my tune! He's a great hockey player and he is also huge...something that we don't have in our current centermen.

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05-08-2008, 12:32 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Because Fletcher's agenda was simple, purge payroll, stockpile draft picks and prospects to make that mess more attractive to potential GMs.

It's much easier for Fletcher - a short term hired gun - to come in and strip the franchise bare, because he doesn't care what the fanbase or media says.

If a new GM came in and his first order of business was to buyout a popular player or make a tough choice like trading McCabe for a draft pick, etc, that puts the pressure, and the ravenous media, on the new guy right out of the gate. (Torontonians might recall the ****-storm that was stirred up in John Ferguson's first week on the job when he said he had no interest in re-signing the gimpy-kneed Doug Gilmour.)

The idea was Fletcher could come in and make a lot of unpopular but neccessary moves to set it up to hand the keys to a new GM who could go about the task of rebuilding the organization. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way.
Good post. Thx.

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05-08-2008, 12:40 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Except when he captained Sweden to an Olympic Gold Medal.

Duh.




Mats earned the right to not be moved. Earned it. Whatever his reasons for not wanting to me moved are irrelevant. Personally I respect that he doesn't want to be a hired gun, he wants to earn a Cup, be part of a team from start to finish. As the captain of his club, he didn't feel the right move was to abandon them for greener pastures while they were fighting for their playoff lives. In my eyes that is class, leadership and loyalty. People always rail against the lack of loyalty in sports. In this case, Sundin was criticized - in some cases by his own fanbase - for being loyal not just to the organization, but to the guys in the room he represents as captain.

The real issue is, why did Cliff Fletcher go public with the team's interest in trading him and make Sundin have to publicly say he won't waive his clause? That was incredibly disrespectful to their captain. It should have been a private conversation, Mats says no thanks, and Fletcher tells the media he has no interest in trading him.

He was owed at least that.
Great post. Still though, he's loyal for a reason - and in my opinion he wouldn't sign with the habs if it would tarnish his achievements with the Leafs. Just my $0.02

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05-08-2008, 10:28 PM
  #87
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Thing is, even if Mats want to remain a Leaf, I'm really not sure the Leafs want anything to do with Mats if they cant use him as a trade asset.
Wow, what a slap in the face that is.

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Well i think alot of us can.

Sundin has been a major pain the Habs behind for many years, but i'm clued in enough to recognize that he is a major talent and would be a HUGE addition to the Habs if they could somehow sign him this summer.
I'm not convinced that "a lot" of either board can really assess the other objectively, no.

Sure, some can, but overall the two fanbases hate each other far too much to have clear judgment...and it shows.

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05-08-2008, 11:06 PM
  #88
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Sundin to Mtl is like Koivu to Toronto, I just can t see it happening, I think that even if , for some reasons,he would like to play in Mtl he wouldnt do it because of the TO fans

Sundin Koivu Pleks Chipchura....Sounds real good !

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05-09-2008, 12:00 AM
  #89
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Hasn't won anything... I'd take an Olympic Gold Medal......
Yeah, that shows he's CLUTCH. Not like Lidstrom, Forsberg, Zetterberg, Lundqvist, Alfredsson, Sedins, Ohlund, Holmstrom had nothing to do with that? It was all about Mats showing how clutch he was.

Mats can take his gold medal and retire back to Sweden. He's not a the warrior we need in the middle and he's not welcome here. A proven playoff performer like Forsberg. That's a different story.

It's amazing how Sundin gets put in the same category as the greats like Yzerman, Sakic, Francis, Trottier. He hasn't earned that. He's a level below that caliber of player. He gets elevated by playing in Toronto where he is treated like a god for some reason.

He's essentially Pierre Turgeon all over again. Similar stats, similar non-impact player in the playoffs. So you're asking me do I want a 37-year old Pierre Turgeon clone next season? No thanks.

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05-09-2008, 12:06 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Yeah, that shows he's CLUTCH. Not like Lidstrom, Forsberg, Zetterberg, Lundqvist, Alfredsson, Sedins, Ohlund, Holmstrom had nothing to do with that? It was all about Mats showing how clutch he was.

Mats can take his gold medal and retire back to Sweden. He's not a the warrior we need in the middle and he's not welcome here. A proven playoff performer like Forsberg. That's a different story.

It's amazing how Sundin gets put in the same category as the greats like Yzerman, Sakic, Francis, Trottier. He hasn't earned that. He's a level below that caliber of player. He gets elevated by playing in Toronto where he is treated like a god for some reason.

He's essentially Pierre Turgeon all over again. Similar stats, similar non-impact player in the playoffs. So you're asking me do I want a 37-year old Pierre Turgeon clone next season? No thanks.
C'mon man, get over it. Mats Sundin is clutch. He may not be great like Joe Sakic, Stevie Y and those you listed, but he is a damn good hockey player who has almost never had any high caliber line mates to play with. Alex Mogilny was only the shadow of his former self by the time Mats go to play with him. He had a great season, playing with different wingers all the time.

Could you imagine the year this guy could put together if he played with Kovalev, the Kostitsyn's or Higgins? All these guys are a step above anything Toronto presently has to offer him.

I don't know how many times this season I caught a Leafs game, where they we're trailing and who scores with less then a minute to go? Mats Sundin.. They are in OT, who scores? Mats Sundin... They are in a SO, who gets the winner? Mats Sundin.

He is welcome on my team any day of the week, and I hate hearing his name (went to High School with Leafs fans). But I will not ever deny his talent or what he could bring to complete our team.

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05-09-2008, 12:48 AM
  #91
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If the Habs have a chance to land Sundin in the off season, than the opportunity must be taken and every effort must be put in getting him inked to a contract. We are small at centre. Sundin brings size and skill. The only reason why he has not done much in his career was because he was surrounded by poor team mates. Even when the Leafs were having success in the late nineties, the nature of his linemates precluded a long march into the finals. As for the lack of being a clutch player argument, I do not by it. He almost single handedly brought his team into the playoffs the last two seasons, and seems to always score the most important goals for his team.

I am salivating at a top-three of Koivu, Plekanec, Sundin. Imagine Sundin, Koivu, and Plekanec as our top-three? It would give this team a formidable lineup:

Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovelev
Latandresse-Koivu-???/Kostitsyn
Kostitsyn/???-Sundin-Higgins
Lapierre-Chipchura-Begin
Kostopolous

EDIT: If the team were to add a top-four d than we are going to be serious contenders for the Cup.


Last edited by bipolarhabfan: 05-09-2008 at 12:53 AM.
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Old
05-09-2008, 12:48 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Yeah, that shows he's CLUTCH. Not like Lidstrom, Forsberg, Zetterberg, Lundqvist, Alfredsson, Sedins, Ohlund, Holmstrom had nothing to do with that? It was all about Mats showing how clutch he was.

Mats can take his gold medal and retire back to Sweden. He's not a the warrior we need in the middle and he's not welcome here. A proven playoff performer like Forsberg. That's a different story.

It's amazing how Sundin gets put in the same category as the greats like Yzerman, Sakic, Francis, Trottier. He hasn't earned that. He's a level below that caliber of player. He gets elevated by playing in Toronto where he is treated like a god for some reason.

He's essentially Pierre Turgeon all over again. Similar stats, similar non-impact player in the playoffs. So you're asking me do I want a 37-year old Pierre Turgeon clone next season? No thanks.
I think anybody here would welcome Sundin before welcoming you.

You can dislike any player you want. Hell, i never liked Gretzky, but i'll never try to argue that he's not what he was.
Sundin is amazing, to argue otherwise is completely stupid.

Turgeon didn't put up the numbers Sundin did at the end of his career.
Sundin average more than a pt/game at 37 in 78GP, thats pretty freaking good. Especially when he does that on such a crappy team like Toronto. That proves that he still has some good years and at 6'5 220, you'd have to be stupid to pass it up.

Why was he ever chosen to be the Captain of Team Sweden when there were players more talented like Forsberg, Alfie and Lidstrom there too?..
You say he ''lead'' the Swedes but had such a great cast. Well my friend, the same can be said for ANY TEAM that wins a medal or Stanley Cup.
You think Sakic would have lead his team to the cup if he didn't have Roy?..Foote?..Forsberg?..Lemieux?..Kamensky?..Ozol insh?..Krupp? Ricci?..Deadmarsh?..Yelle?..or the second time with Bourque?..Blake..etc..??
You think Yzerman would have won it without the help of Shanahan?..Fedorov?..Larionov??..Lidstrom?..Kozlov ?..Fetisov??..Konstantinov??..McCarthy?.Lapointe?. .Osgood/Vernon?

The same can be said for EVERY TEAM that wins.
But in Toronto...Toronto team=Sundin and Kaberle.
Much like Koivu here, Sundin never really had the chance to play on a very solid team after getting traded from Qc.
But he's still very good and would be very welcomed here.

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05-09-2008, 01:04 AM
  #93
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How is he a non impact player in the playoffs? He averages 0.9 PPG in the postseason, more than Kovalev (0.85) and just as much as Koivu. This is against other team's top shutdown trios too. He scores timely goals, and did against the Habs last year at least once that I can think of.

I don't get how you can say he hasn't earned anything yet. About two more seasons and he has 600 goals in his career, and averaging more than a PPG. So he'll have more goals than any other Swede in the history of the NHL. When he reaches that goal more than likely he passes Jari Kurri's 601 goals, which is the most ever by a European, and Sundin never got to play with Gretzky.

So I don't know how you come up with these suggestions that he hasn't earned anything yet. I guess no other European has ever earned anything before either.

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05-09-2008, 08:01 AM
  #94
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I know it is fun to speculate but come on guys........Sundin wouldnt wave his NTC to leave TO.........and he aint leaving TO......

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05-09-2008, 08:14 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Mats can take his gold medal and retire back to Sweden. He's not a the warrior we need in the middle and he's not welcome here. A proven playoff performer like Forsberg. That's a different story.
I'd welcome a player of Sundin's stature with open arms. Mats has carried the Leafs on his back since he has been Captain and the Leafs would have been much worse than they are without him. There has been no Sakic on the Leafs to take the load off of Sundin. Shift after shift he has to play against the best shutdown players on the opposing team.

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05-09-2008, 08:38 AM
  #96
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I know it is fun to speculate but come on guys........Sundin wouldnt wave his NTC to leave TO.........and he aint leaving TO......
I have to agree with this.

It's nice to dream about a guy like Sundin on our team though. I just can't see it happening.

If there were concerns about the room being big enough for both Koivu and Kovalev, how would it be big enough with Sundin!?!?

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05-09-2008, 08:46 AM
  #97
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2008-2009 Leafs without Sundin = Tavaras

2008-2009 Leafs with Sundin = Top 10-15 pick

He's not coming to Montreal. I hope he doesn't retire and plays with the Leafs.

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05-09-2008, 08:54 AM
  #98
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Wow, what a slap in the face that is.
And to clear it up right now, I am not suggesting its the wise course of action, just that I kinda feel thats what going to happen.

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05-09-2008, 09:19 AM
  #99
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Sundin grew up a Habs fan with another Mats as his idol, Naslund...

It's definitely not out of the question that he leaves Toronto and goes elsewhere. And there is no better place than MTL.
Where did you hear this, I might need to add this to my arsenal.

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05-09-2008, 10:49 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Yeah, that shows he's CLUTCH. Not like Lidstrom, Forsberg, Zetterberg, Lundqvist, Alfredsson, Sedins, Ohlund, Holmstrom had nothing to do with that? It was all about Mats showing how clutch he was.

Mats can take his gold medal and retire back to Sweden. He's not a the warrior we need in the middle and he's not welcome here. A proven playoff performer like Forsberg. That's a different story.

It's amazing how Sundin gets put in the same category as the greats like Yzerman, Sakic, Francis, Trottier. He hasn't earned that. He's a level below that caliber of player. He gets elevated by playing in Toronto where he is treated like a god for some reason.

He's essentially Pierre Turgeon all over again. Similar stats, similar non-impact player in the playoffs. So you're asking me do I want a 37-year old Pierre Turgeon clone next season? No thanks.
Just when i think i've read the dumbest post in the history of HF... someone comes and tops it with an even dumber post.....

As of right now this is the dumbest post i've ever seen.... will someone beat it?? I hope people stop trying.

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