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Old
05-01-2008, 02:22 PM
  #26
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I love the fact that everyone who puts an offer out says if we don't take it we will lose Ilya for nothing.

There are probably 20 NHL teams that could fit him under their cap, and most of them would be more than interested in him.

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05-01-2008, 03:51 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by lyrrad View Post
It's funny how in the real world a player like Hossa (who had ZERO years left on his current deal) can bring in a package like Esposito, Armstrong, Christiansen, and some picks but here on HF hockeyviper87 doesn't seem to think that a player with more years left on his deal and who is younger and better than Hossa can't bring in a similar return.

Staal, Dubinsky, and a pick is a starting point for Kovy, IMO. It needs to go further from there.

Trade proposals are stupid and 9/10 the people making them are even dumber.
can't do that from a NYR POV, its possible we can part with one, but not both. If this is what it takes (probably is), Kovy to the Rangers aint happening.

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05-01-2008, 03:57 PM
  #28
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can't do that from a NYR POV, its possible we can part with one, but not both. If this is what it takes (probably is), Kovy to the Rangers aint happening.
That's a fair statement. If you don't want to pay the cost, that's perfectly within your right.

My beef is with those that say "Staal is untouchable" or "Kovalchuk isn't worth Staal" or some other bullcrap.

But I'm pretty sure the Rangers would do Staal and Dubinsky for Kovalchuk in a heartbeat.

A good way to assess a fair trade is it hurts on both sides.

Kovalchuk being traded rips up Atlanta. Dubinsky and a bunch of a prospects is a papercut to New York.

Staal hurts. Staal and Dubinsky hurts a lot.

That's how you know it's getting close to fair.

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05-02-2008, 06:21 PM
  #29
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The Rangers probably wouldnt do Staal for Kovalchuk straight up. There are maybe 5 guys in the NHL right now who have the ceiling that Staal has in terms of being a legit #1 franchise defenseman. at the age of 20 hes already the Rangers best defenseman, and has been the best defenseman on the ice in both of the Rangers playoff series so far.

Brandon Dubinsky has been dominating these playoffs, recording more than a point per game.

My offer for Kovalchuk has been this...

Tyutin
1st O8
Artem Anisimov
Alexei Cherepanov
3rd 08

want to compare that to the Hossa deal? Its way better than what you guys got for Hossa.

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05-03-2008, 05:41 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
The Rangers probably wouldnt do Staal for Kovalchuk straight up. There are maybe 5 guys in the NHL right now who have the ceiling that Staal has in terms of being a legit #1 franchise defenseman. at the age of 20 hes already the Rangers best defenseman, and has been the best defenseman on the ice in both of the Rangers playoff series so far.

Brandon Dubinsky has been dominating these playoffs, recording more than a point per game.

My offer for Kovalchuk has been this...

Tyutin
1st O8
Artem Anisimov
Alexei Cherepanov
3rd 08

want to compare that to the Hossa deal? Its way better than what you guys got for Hossa.
Ceiling? You wanna talk about ceiling? Please, Kovy is at the ceiling, of goal scorers. You can throw a quantity of players at the Thrashers, but I wouldn't even consider it if your offer doesn't include quality. No deal for you, unless Marc Staal is part of the package.

Remember, nobody wants to deal Kovalchuk. You can't bend over the Thrashers, not when it comes to the franchise player and (hopefully) future captain.

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05-03-2008, 02:15 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Safir View Post
Ceiling? You wanna talk about ceiling? Please, Kovy is at the ceiling, of goal scorers. You can throw a quantity of players at the Thrashers, but I wouldn't even consider it if your offer doesn't include quality. No deal for you, unless Marc Staal is part of the package.

Remember, nobody wants to deal Kovalchuk. You can't bend over the Thrashers, not when it comes to the franchise player and (hopefully) future captain.
fair enough.

it takes 2 to tango. If staal has to be in the deal, i dont see any way it happens.

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05-03-2008, 03:18 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
The Rangers probably wouldnt do Staal for Kovalchuk straight up. There are maybe 5 guys in the NHL right now who have the ceiling that Staal has in terms of being a legit #1 franchise defenseman. at the age of 20 hes already the Rangers best defenseman, and has been the best defenseman on the ice in both of the Rangers playoff series so far.

Brandon Dubinsky has been dominating these playoffs, recording more than a point per game.

My offer for Kovalchuk has been this...

Tyutin
1st O8
Artem Anisimov
Alexei Cherepanov
3rd 08

want to compare that to the Hossa deal? Its way better than what you guys got for Hossa.
It better be 4 times better considering Kovy has 2 years on his contract and Hossa only had 3-4 months.

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05-03-2008, 03:22 PM
  #33
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me either

what is atl looking for when they deal this guy. Looking at past trades even for players under contract not team has ever given up their top prospect in hoping to better their team. Like i said before hockey is more of a business thing now then value wise. take the pronger trade for example he was signed longer and cheaper and plays a more important postion. Aneheim did not deal getzlaf or perry or giggy to get him. They gave two quality young starters a 1st and prospects, I just don't see what atl is realistically looking to get. It is not like these guys we are proposing are scrubs they and young proven cheap performers and to boot they are playoff tested and to it in stride.

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05-03-2008, 03:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
ok...lets try this

dubinsky
sanguinetti
dawes
1st 08
1st 09
2nd 08

three explosive young players, plus three good picks....
A monster bird in the hand is worth more than 5 sparrows in the bush.

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05-03-2008, 03:44 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jay from jersey View Post
what is atl looking for when they deal this guy.Looking at past trades even for players under contract not team has ever given up their top prospect in hoping to better their team. Like i said before hockey is more of a business thing now then value wise. take the pronger trade for example he was signed longer and cheaper and plays a more important postion. Aneheim did not deal getzlaf or perry or giggy to get him. They gave two quality young starters a 1st and prospects, I just don't see what atl is realistically looking to get. It is not like these guys we are proposing are scrubs they and young proven cheap performers and to boot they are playoff tested and to it in stride.
When? Kovalchuk never demanded a trade, unlike Pronger. That's why Edmonton couldn't get full value for CP. That's a big difference.

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05-03-2008, 09:25 PM
  #36
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wow another stupid trade offer from a Rags fan.

Kovalchuk will not leave. go make offers for someone else.

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05-04-2008, 11:50 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safir View Post
When? Kovalchuk never demanded a trade, unlike Pronger. That's why Edmonton couldn't get full value for CP. That's a big difference.
Yeah, I really don't know what people find so hard to grasp about that concept.

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Old
05-05-2008, 12:50 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
The Rangers probably wouldnt do Staal for Kovalchuk straight up. There are maybe 5 guys in the NHL right now who have the ceiling that Staal has in terms of being a legit #1 franchise defenseman. at the age of 20 hes already the Rangers best defenseman, and has been the best defenseman on the ice in both of the Rangers playoff series so far.

Brandon Dubinsky has been dominating these playoffs, recording more than a point per game.

My offer for Kovalchuk has been this...

Tyutin
1st O8
Artem Anisimov
Alexei Cherepanov
3rd 08

want to compare that to the Hossa deal? Its way better than what you guys got for Hossa.
Sorry but I would just laugh if that were offered. Tyutin is nothing special. You can't be sure the Russians will even sign and come over. Ohhhh a third rounder in 08--sign me up baby!!!!!

Hossa brought a 1st rounder, two guys taken in the 1st round and one take in the 3rd--and that was for a two month rental of an UFA. Kovalchuk is entering his peak and is signed for 2 more years. When you're prepared to offer 4 1st rounders or 1st round draftees (who don't suck) come back and post here.

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05-05-2008, 10:46 AM
  #39
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Sorry but I would just laugh if that were offered. Tyutin is nothing special. You can't be sure the Russians will even sign and come over. Ohhhh a third rounder in 08--sign me up baby!!!!!

Hossa brought a 1st rounder, two guys taken in the 1st round and one take in the 3rd--and that was for a two month rental of an UFA. Kovalchuk is entering his peak and is signed for 2 more years. When you're prepared to offer 4 1st rounders or 1st round draftees (who don't suck) come back and post here.
yea, he's nothing great, but he isn't a liability, he's steady, and he's not a prospect, something I'm hearing from ATL fans, that the team wants to win now.

One is already here, AA, just saying.

My offter on the ranger board was:

Tytuin, Dubinsky, Dawes, Cherepanov, 1st, maybe some other pick

Kovalchuk, Armstrong, maybe some pick

even that offer I think is more than the Rangers can afford to give up, pretty much why its a fantasy proposal, just trying to gauge the fairness of the deal.

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05-05-2008, 10:59 AM
  #40
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We have tons of players like Dawes already, I don't see how he fits a need. In fact the Thrashers get softer by adding him and losing Armstrong.

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05-13-2008, 12:42 AM
  #41
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The Oilers are willing to give up Horcoff, Stoll, Torres, in exchange for Kovalchuk. Tell me if i need to add or its to much.

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05-13-2008, 01:39 AM
  #42
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Here's an idea...

How about not giving up the farm for Kovalchuk especially when he'll be a UFA in 2 years.

I'm not saying he'll get to that point, but it's worth a chance.

He could end up wanting out pretty quickly if Atlanta's young talent doesn't end up panning out. Crazier things have happened.

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05-13-2008, 03:12 AM
  #43
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Close, but still not enough immediate help.

I know you don't care about the Thrashers winning sooner rather than later, but we do.
You might, but it appears your management doesnt.

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05-13-2008, 09:07 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
Here's an idea...

How about not giving up the farm for Kovalchuk especially when he'll be a UFA in 2 years.
Look at how much Hossa, a pending UFA, went for this year. Kovalchuk could easily pull in "the farm" when he's UFA. There's precedent here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
You might, but it appears your management doesnt.
It's all too apparent league-wide, isn't it? Hopefully, management pulls their heads from their hindquarters and actually puts a solid product on the ice this coming season.

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05-13-2008, 02:16 PM
  #45
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This is totally delusional, as I don't see the Habs try to get Kovy at his highest value (right now, as opposed to last year of contract/trade deadline when he doesn't want to sign)

Mike Komisarek/Andrei Markov (both top pairing D-men)
The Kostitsyn Brothers/Chris Higgins + prospect (I'm thinking along the lines of McDonagh or Pacioretty, depending on need)
One of Alex Kovalev, Ryan O'Byrne, Mikhail Grabovski or a 1st round pick
And a conditionnal 1st round pick along the way should he sign an extension/new contract

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05-13-2008, 09:44 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by MTLHabsAK46 View Post
This is totally delusional, as I don't see the Habs try to get Kovy at his highest value (right now, as opposed to last year of contract/trade deadline when he doesn't want to sign)

Mike Komisarek/Andrei Markov (both top pairing D-men)
The Kostitsyn Brothers/Chris Higgins + prospect (I'm thinking along the lines of McDonagh or Pacioretty, depending on need)
One of Alex Kovalev, Ryan O'Byrne, Mikhail Grabovski or a 1st round pick
And a conditionnal 1st round pick along the way should he sign an extension/new contract
As a fellow Habs fan, i have to disagree with what package.
You are offering way too much. The Kostitsyn's are not going to be moved anytime soon, neither is Markov (our best player.) Bob Gainey backed out of the Hossa trade because he didn't want to give up higgins. You are offering a terrific all around player (higgins) our best defenseman, and our leading scorer (kovalev.)

Im glad you want to help atlanta win now, but montreal wants to win now as well. losing those guys would not help.

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05-14-2008, 10:01 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Kikizaz View Post
As a fellow Habs fan, i have to disagree with what package.
You are offering way too much. The Kostitsyn's are not going to be moved anytime soon, neither is Markov (our best player.) Bob Gainey backed out of the Hossa trade because he didn't want to give up higgins. You are offering a terrific all around player (higgins) our best defenseman, and our leading scorer (kovalev.)

Im glad you want to help atlanta win now, but montreal wants to win now as well. losing those guys would not help.
Hossa was more problematic due to an expiring contract...Which is not a problem with Kovalchuk. Plus, Hossa was coming off a disappointing season, which is not happening in Kovalchuk's case. And if you want to get a player of that caliber, you will have to pay a HUGE price. A top pairing defensemen in his late-20's, low30's (Markov) is not worth Kovalchuk by himself...we give up 2 good prospects in the Kostitsyns' or Higgins (a good all-around player) and a good prospect (I may have went overboard with Pacman or McDonagh, something like Maxwell or Weber might be more in order).
At this point, the trade definately is worth considering...If Kovalchuk wants nothing to do with Atlanta. You have to add to that, thus, the 1st rounder, Grabovski (who's a great prospect in dire need of playing time and coaching, instead of box time and not having communication with the coach), O'Byrne (solid prospect, top 4 D-man potential) or a 35-year old who's coming off a great season, yes, but also is a pandora's box.

I also said Gainey would never consider trading for Kovalchuk when his price was this high, but it would take a trade like this to get Kovalchuk coming Montréal's way. Simply because he is too valuable to the Thrashers now. In his contract season, if he pulls a Hossa, we might be talking trade, but at this point, it is simply folly.

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05-14-2008, 11:45 AM
  #48
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I was flamed for my offer before so I will increase it a little.

Pitkanen - top pairing d man
Cogliano - soon to be #1 center
Smid - potential top pairing d man, worst case second pairing
Schremp - younger but very similar to Savard, not yet in the NHL

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05-14-2008, 12:08 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by rigger View Post
I was flamed for my offer before so I will increase it a little.

Pitkanen - top pairing d man
Cogliano - soon to be #1 center
Smid - potential top pairing d man, worst case second pairing
Schremp - younger but very similar to Savard, not yet in the NHL
Pitkanen--funny when I read the Oilers boards they are always complaining about him and want to trade him away.

Cogliano a #1 center in the NHL or some alternate reality? Sorry but he's already 21 and just put up a 45 point season. If he put up 45 points in the NHL at age 18 or 19 I could see kind of growth.

Smid - top pairing defenseman? more like 2nd paring defenseman. Wait, now that I look at the Oilers stats they he ranks 5th in total ice time per game which means he was just a 3rd paring guy for your team last season.

Schremp - we already have one high risk prospect in Angelo Esposito. Schremp is quite likely to be a bust.

So that's one 1st paring D, one 2nd pairing D, one potential 2nd line center and one likely bust draft pick for Kovalchuk the way I see it.

Thanks but I'll pass.


Last edited by Enstrom39: 05-14-2008 at 12:25 PM.
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05-14-2008, 12:43 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigger View Post
I was flamed for my offer before so I will increase it a little.

Pitkanen - top pairing d man
Cogliano - soon to be #1 center
Smid - potential top pairing d man, worst case second pairing
Schremp - younger but very similar to Savard, not yet in the NHL
First off, you have very little safe value in those guys.

Pitkanen, right now, is a great puck-moving defenseman, but never in the world is he a top pairing D-man. A top 4, yes, a great PP QB, yes, a great defenseman? Not likely.
Cogliano is a very average center, with great 2nd line potential. The only place he can be a number 1 is a place like Edmonton, where the lack of talent at the position forces him to take the top job.
You're talking about 2 prospects...why would Atlanta trade one of the best wingers in the league for prospects...good ones possibly, but nothing really safe there.

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