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Old
05-14-2008, 08:22 PM
  #251
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If he comes back, fine. If he leaves, fine. The Rangers will have to move on without Jagr sooner or later so why worry about it IMO. Whatever happens, happens.

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05-14-2008, 11:45 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by HenriksBetter View Post
If he comes back, fine. If he leaves, fine. The Rangers will have to move on without Jagr sooner or later so why worry about it IMO. Whatever happens, happens.
by that logic they shouldn't worry about any players because they're all going to leave eventually.

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Old
05-15-2008, 12:47 AM
  #253
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****-gomez-****
dawes-drury-callahan
avery-dubinsky-sjostrom
****-betts-orr

staal-****
tyutin-girardi
backman-****

hank
****

traded away: prucha, hollweg

witht hat lineup, i think the rangers need to either trade for top end talent or sign UFA's or graduate a few players from the AHL

trades:
dubinsky, callahan, 1st 08
suter

tyutin, prucha
pitkanen

UFA's signings:
rolston
stuart
hagman
CuJo

rolston-gomez-dawes
hagman-drury-korpikoski
sjostrom-anisimov-avery
byers-betts-orr

staal-suter
pitkanen-girardi
backman-stuart

hank
CuJo


now i know i will get killed for pretty much this entire post, however i think with the two trades for those two defenceman, the rangers defence would be set for the enxt 10-12 years....hank would have a great defence in front of him and with cheraponov, anisimov, dawes, gomez and whoever the rangers draft this year getting better and maturing on offence i think this could be a team that could do a lot of damage year after year

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Old
05-15-2008, 12:57 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
no offense taken...I assume it is a fact and didn't go back to verify because whether it was or not, it's meaningless to me. What's meaningful is that at the end of the season he had 70 points and was meaningful in getting the Rangers in the playoffs and excelled in the playoffs. The reason why I said it's a silly comment beacuse in the end, do you really care that Jagr turned it on towards the last 15 or so games when the Rangers were making a push to the playoffs and tus was able to get 70 pints? What does it really matter? Again, should we go back and look at a 50 goal scorer and say "he was only at 35 come March and he turned it on with 15 in his last 22 games to reach 50 - so he really barely got 50". To me, Jagr was there when it counted - in the end, and he reached 70 points.
That's fine, the stat could mean absolutely nothing to everybody as long the ends are met.

I don't care about the stats as much as I do the fact that he half-assed it during the season, and that's what really matters. The stats kind of go in hand, because Jagr isn't getting any younger.

You really can't expect Jagr to keep scoring at the same pace, especially when you've quoted him as making references to half-assing it during the season to save it for the playoffs. What happens if he can't get his rhythm going? There is no playoffs then, and if there's going to be no playoffs, I'd rather have the lottery pick at that point, and not be a 9th-10th place team like we were all of those years and miss out on the good draft picks.

Quote:
I think you totally missed the point on this comment: "He did have the surge - no what-ifs - the season was on the line and he came through - isn't that what's expected of him? Should we go back to past 50 goal scorers and say if he didn't have that four goal game he would not have past 50 goals". See the above comment because it's actually related.
I understand what your point.

However, what I'm saying is that what happens if he doesn't repeat that? Or what happens if he produces but we come up just short? I would rather have players that are playing at 100% for the length of a full season. If Jagr was a smart defensive player, it would help his case, but he couldn't defend his way out of a wet paper bag. Not only that, but it sets a terrible example in the locker room. There's no way that I could bring him back with the C, especially after finding out that he "saved it for the playoffs."

Quote:
I guess in the end we're at different ends of the spectrum since you won't be happy with a second round exit next season with Jagr and would rather get a lottery pick, or so it seems from your post. Sorry if I misinterpreted, but that seemed to have been the case.
If we're going to miss the playoffs, I'd rather not have it caused by the fact that Jagr didn't want to show up early on and did too little too late.

And I especially don't want that at 12 million for 2 years.

No way.

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Old
05-15-2008, 06:57 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
not true.... if he has done zip in playoffs than so has Gomez and Drury b/c they all have the same PPG avgs. he had one bad playoff series and that was against us. In fact that entire team was horrible, so was Kovy but i'm sure you probably still want him. This is a guy that has scored at least 29goals 8 yrs straight. one of the best and most consistent wingers in the game. He actually deserves an 7-8 mil contract unlike our "heroes" Gomez and Drury in particular.

Career Playoff Stats
GP G A Pts PIM
66 19 28 47 32

This is hardley disappearing.

W/o this years playoffs
GP G A Pts PIM
55 13 22 35 24

still not that bad.
Ask Ottawa fans how much Hossa chocked in the playoffs. Ask Buffalo fans how Drury did for them in the playoffs. Ask the Debbies how many cups Gomez has and how he helped them get them.
Ask Atlanta how Hossa was for them in the playoffs.

Put me (or anyone else for that matter) on a line with Crosby and I'd put up just as good numbers.

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Old
05-15-2008, 08:17 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by GarretJoseph View Post
Ask Ottawa fans how much Hossa chocked in the playoffs. Ask Buffalo fans how Drury did for them in the playoffs. Ask the Debbies how many cups Gomez has and how he helped them get them.
Ask Atlanta how Hossa was for them in the playoffs.

Put me (or anyone else for that matter) on a line with Crosby and I'd put up just as good numbers.
Hossa had 1 bad playoffs in Ottawa..... and don't give me that crap about Atlanta... that entire team was overmatched... Kovy only had 1 pt that series as well... I bet you still want him on the team and think he would be a great addition.

by the way....

00-01 Playoffs he had 2 pt in 4 games... not good but lead team in pts
01-02 Playoffs he had 10 pts in 12 games. thats not bad 2nd in pts on team
02-03 Playoffs he had 16 pts in 18 games. Still seems good to me. led team in pts
03-04 Playoffs he had 4 pts in 7 games.... not bad. 1st in pts

now compare those 4 yrs to his teammate Daniel Alfreddson...

00-01 Playoffs he had 1 pt in 4 games... not good (t-3rd)
01-02 Playoffs he had 13 pts in 12 games (1st)
02-03 Playoffs he had 8 pts in 18 games (6th)
03-04 Playoffs he had 3 pts in 7 games (t-2nd)


so in those 4 years Hossa ourscored Alfreddson 31 to 25, yet somehow everybody considers Hossa a failure in the playoffs but nobody says jack about Alfreddson. They played on the same team these 4 yrs and usually on the same line. And Hossa plays great defense as well.

so again enlighten me on how he has failed? his entire team failed on the playoffs but he still managed to be first in scoring 3 out of 4 years and was 2nd the other year. That actually sounds pretty f***in good to me.

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Old
05-15-2008, 08:19 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
If the Rangers do bring Jagr back, isn't this team just going to be in the same situation a year of two from now?

I really think that Jagr or no Jagr the team might take a step back this season. If that's the case, I'd rather take a step back and save on cash and see what the likes of Dubinsky, Callahan, Dawes and maybe even Prucha can do.
Agreed.

Why prolong the inevitable?

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05-15-2008, 08:22 AM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
****-gomez-****
dawes-drury-callahan
avery-dubinsky-sjostrom
****-betts-orr

staal-****
tyutin-girardi
backman-****

hank
****

traded away: prucha, hollweg

witht hat lineup, i think the rangers need to either trade for top end talent or sign UFA's or graduate a few players from the AHL

trades:
dubinsky, callahan, 1st 08
suter

tyutin, prucha
pitkanen

UFA's signings:
rolston
stuart
hagman
CuJo

rolston-gomez-dawes
hagman-drury-korpikoski
sjostrom-anisimov-avery
byers-betts-orr

staal-suter
pitkanen-girardi
backman-stuart

hank
CuJo


now i know i will get killed for pretty much this entire post, however i think with the two trades for those two defenceman, the rangers defence would be set for the enxt 10-12 years....hank would have a great defence in front of him and with cheraponov, anisimov, dawes, gomez and whoever the rangers draft this year getting better and maturing on offence i think this could be a team that could do a lot of damage year after year
Why would you sign CuJo for close to a $1MM when you have Vally Vally for $700k? Also, it seems like you giving up an awful lot of our future upside for some pricey vets. While I laud your expansive thinking, that looks like a salary cap deathwish.

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05-15-2008, 09:03 AM
  #259
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Coldshot...

I'd actually rather have a Jagr at 50% than an Ortmeyer at 115% - I do care about effort, but in the end, I care more about results than effort, if that makes any sense. I hate to see guys dog it, but do have to admit that many can dog it and produce far better than the little engines that could, but can't produce. Not how I'd make up a team, but I can deal with it if the result is more wins.

And as I've said numerous times, I'm not necessarily saying go sign Jagr - I am poking holes in other options compared to Jagr, and each option depends on a person's desired result for next season. Jagr may not get into a rhythm and the team may miss the playoffs if he's here. Of course, he may get into a rhythm and they may make the playoffs. He can also score 90 points and the Rangers miss the playoffs too. They can sign a UFA who everyone expects to score 25 goals and he gets 15. There's a lot that can happen. I believe Jagr still has talent. I believe that Jagr can still carry guys on his back - just not as much as he's done in the past and he does need his linemates to pick up a little slack. I also believe that since this team has had such a dependence on him the last three seasons that him leaving leaves a big hole and I'm not convinced the kids, and the vets here, are ready to fill that and perhaps some kids, especially those still coming up through the ranks, may need a bit more time. Perhaps there's a trade out there that may make sense and help things - but I just don't know.

And finally, with this team, there are a lot of question marks. There are question marks concerning what kids can do. There are question marks concerening what a UFA may do, or a RFA that may be signed or traded for, or any other trade. There are no guarantees there, which is the case with Jagr. The thing about Jagr is he's been here for a few years. He knows the system, knows the coaches, knows the rink, fans and such. As I said in another post, it's sometimes better to go with the devil you know than the one you do not. But of course, everything has a price and the price needs to be right. And of course, Jagr may have his own mind already made up.

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Old
05-15-2008, 11:47 AM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
Why would you sign CuJo for close to a $1MM when you have Vally Vally for $700k? Also, it seems like you giving up an awful lot of our future upside for some pricey vets. While I laud your expansive thinking, that looks like a salary cap deathwish.
HAHA...i was a little bored last night

i do like stuart.....and i would love to get both of those defenseman....there were just too many holes left if the rangers got suter....dubi, callahan, prucha and hollweg leave more holes with only resigning avery...there are just too many holes left....if sather can pull off a trade for anyone this offseason i will be amazed as the rangers dont have the chips to trade because any hole he fills with a trade will create another one elsewhere

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05-15-2008, 12:06 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
If the Rangers do bring Jagr back, isn't this team just going to be in the same situation a year of two from now?

I really think that Jagr or no Jagr the team might take a step back this season. If that's the case, I'd rather take a step back and save on cash and see what the likes of Dubinsky, Callahan, Dawes and maybe even Prucha can do.
I think it's going to be tough to ice a team under the cap that's as good on paper as this current one. however this team was the 2nd best team in the East, so if Sather is thinking about anything other than icing the best team possible, that'd be enough for me to fire his ass. a breakout performance from one of the young guns, a consistent season from Lundqvist at the top of his game, or a lightning-in-a-bottle FA signing, and this team is in the hunt for the Cup, IMO.

we can still see what Dubinsky, Callahan, Dawes and Prucha can do with Jagr in the lineup.

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05-15-2008, 12:13 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
****-gomez-****
dawes-drury-callahan
avery-dubinsky-sjostrom
****-betts-orr

staal-****
tyutin-girardi
backman-****

hank
****

traded away: prucha, hollweg

witht hat lineup, i think the rangers need to either trade for top end talent or sign UFA's or graduate a few players from the AHL

trades:
dubinsky, callahan, 1st 08
suter

tyutin, prucha
pitkanen

UFA's signings:
rolston
stuart
hagman
CuJo

rolston-gomez-dawes
hagman-drury-korpikoski
sjostrom-anisimov-avery
byers-betts-orr

staal-suter
pitkanen-girardi
backman-stuart

hank
CuJo


now i know i will get killed for pretty much this entire post, however i think with the two trades for those two defenceman, the rangers defence would be set for the enxt 10-12 years....hank would have a great defence in front of him and with cheraponov, anisimov, dawes, gomez and whoever the rangers draft this year getting better and maturing on offence i think this could be a team that could do a lot of damage year after year
lets trade one of the few gritty centres that we have no way i move dubinsky for a dman. we can just sign someone. id rather sign orpik, than trade dubinsky. we can sign commodore and stuart and be fine.

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Old
05-15-2008, 12:23 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by RCallahan43 View Post
lets trade one of the few gritty centres that we have no way i move dubinsky for a dman. we can just sign someone. id rather sign orpik, than trade dubinsky. we can sign commodore and stuart and be fine.
i was bored and thinking outside the box.....with anisimov in the wings i wouldnt mind seeing if weber or suter could be had from nashville as that would solidify the first pairing for the next 10-15 years.....staal-suter or staal-weber is a HUGE upgrade over anything the rangers have had in the last 15 years

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05-15-2008, 12:25 PM
  #264
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My goodness


Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post



Quote:
trades:
dubinsky, callahan, 1st 08
suter


Quote:
tyutin, pruchapitkanen


UFA's signings:
rolston

As a replacement for Jagr? Hells no. I like Rolston but hes the same age as Jagr and is a 60 pt guy in his best years. Id like him as a possible replacement on the 2nd line for Shanny


Quote:
UFA's signings:
hagman
Like him on the 2nd line too maybe



Quote:
UFA's signings:
CuJo
Why?

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Old
05-15-2008, 12:28 PM
  #265
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like i said before, i was trying to think outside the box....

rolston is my ideal replacement for shanny, who says we need to replace jagr?....leave his spot open on dubinsky's wing for a young player and make that the third line

i like hagman and i think he would be a good addition

you dont like my trades?

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05-15-2008, 01:07 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i was bored and thinking outside the box.....with anisimov in the wings i wouldnt mind seeing if weber or suter could be had from nashville as that would solidify the first pairing for the next 10-15 years.....staal-suter or staal-weber is a HUGE upgrade over anything the rangers have had in the last 15 years
we got sang sauer tyutin staal girardi as part of our future. i would not deal dubinsky. we dont have maybe centres that are physical, has size and has talent. and he is a chippy player. dubinsky was the best agitaitor in juniors, and imagine if avery teaches him a thing or too about agitating

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05-15-2008, 01:12 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by RCallahan43 View Post
we got sang sauer tyutin staal girardi as part of our future. i would not deal dubinsky. we dont have maybe centres that are physical, has size and has talent. and he is a chippy player. dubinsky was the best agitaitor in juniors, and imagine if avery teaches him a thing or too about agitating
i agree...i like dubi a lot....its just a player like suter or weber, who are established as very good young defenceman are more vital to this team now and in the future because of the way the team is constructed....from the goal out....if the rangers could get either of them or boumeester i wouldnt mind giving up dubinsky

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05-15-2008, 01:25 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i agree...i like dubi a lot....its just a player like suter or weber, who are established as very good young defenceman are more vital to this team now and in the future because of the way the team is constructed....from the goal out....if the rangers could get either of them or boumeester i wouldnt mind giving up dubinsky
we dont have much gritty centre that has skill, anisimov is a skilled playmaker but not gritty or physical, but he does have talent. dubinsky and anisimov r 2 different type of players. since the rangers have alot of smaller wingers like dawes prucha callahan, id rather deal prucha and dawes to get a dman even if they dont have much value. i think dubinsky will be a future captain for the rangers.

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05-15-2008, 01:29 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by RCallahan43 View Post
we dont have much gritty centre that has skill, anisimov is a skilled playmaker but not gritty or physical, but he does have talent. dubinsky and anisimov r 2 different type of players. since the rangers have alot of smaller wingers like dawes prucha callahan, id rather deal prucha and dawes to get a dman even if they dont have much value. i think dubinsky will be a future captain for the rangers.
see dawes and prucha dont have much value and if you want to get a future #1 defenceman, you need to give up quality...dubinsky is what they would want...and the rangers have nothing like any of those players i listed except staal....to get another staal would be HUGE

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05-15-2008, 03:22 PM
  #270
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see dawes and prucha dont have much value and if you want to get a future #1 defenceman, you need to give up quality...dubinsky is what they would want...and the rangers have nothing like any of those players i listed except staal....to get another staal would be HUGE
true but we also dont have another player like dubinsky. anisimov is different player from dubinsky.

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05-15-2008, 03:26 PM
  #271
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true but we also dont have another player like dubinsky. anisimov is different player from dubinsky.
agreed, i like dubinsky and he is a unique player in our organization.....however, boumeester, suter, and weber would also be unique and IMO, if you can get a game-changing defenceman for a game-changing forward, you do that deal every time

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05-15-2008, 03:29 PM
  #272
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i agree...i like dubi a lot....its just a player like suter or weber, who are established as very good young defenceman are more vital to this team now and in the future because of the way the team is constructed....from the goal out....if the rangers could get either of them or boumeester i wouldnt mind giving up dubinsky
I dont understand this argument. Obviously we have built from the goal out. Lundqvist, Tyutin, Staal, Girardi, Sauer, Sanguinetti, Potter plus some FA signings should be more than fine. Why give up assets to get someone else in here when we already have a pretty good foundation on defense.

This team is now in dire need of top 6 forward talent. If anything, Id be much more inclined to package some defenseman to obtain a young forward than can score.

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05-15-2008, 03:34 PM
  #273
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agreed, i like dubinsky and he is a unique player in our organization.....however, boumeester, suter, and weber would also be unique and IMO, if you can get a game-changing defenceman for a game-changing forward, you do that deal every time
not when our team has depth on d. if anything we need more gritty power forwards that can score.

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05-15-2008, 03:36 PM
  #274
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I dont understand this argument. Obviously we have built from the goal out. Lundqvist, Tyutin, Staal, Girardi, Sauer, Sanguinetti, Potter plus some FA signings should be more than fine. Why give up assets to get someone else in here when we already have a pretty good foundation on defense.

This team is now in dire need of top 6 forward talent. If anything, Id be much more inclined to package some defenseman to obtain a young forward than can score.
1) sauer is hurt and wont be ready for the start of the season
2) sanguinetti still is a year or more away and he looks like an offensive defenceman
3) you wouldnt trade for a young defenceman like weber who has a rocket shot and hits hard and is already a #1 on his team?....or boumeester who is the same?....both of those guys are going to be the elite in the league for a long time...the rangers have support players....girardi and tyutin are #3 and #4 and sanguinetti will prolly be about the same unless his defence can improve imensley.....dubinsky for weber or boumeester is a deal that has to be done....good offense is easier to find then good defence

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05-15-2008, 03:48 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
1) sauer is hurt and wont be ready for the start of the season
2) sanguinetti still is a year or more away and he looks like an offensive defenceman
3) you wouldnt trade for a young defenceman like weber who has a rocket shot and hits hard and is already a #1 on his team?....or boumeester who is the same?....both of those guys are going to be the elite in the league for a long time...the rangers have support players....girardi and tyutin are #3 and #4 and sanguinetti will prolly be about the same unless his defence can improve imensley.....dubinsky for weber or boumeester is a deal that has to be done....good offense is easier to find then good defence
I would give up Anisimov before Dubi.... I would also suspect that FLA would want girardi or tyutin in return for Jbo. which wouldn't be a problem.

Dubi is big, physical, hits, and is a born leader... you don't trade these type of players either.

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