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Wich Rookie Do You Want To See With The Habs Next Season?

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Old
05-16-2008, 09:02 AM
  #101
sbtatter
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Doesnt mean squat. Corey Locke destroys all those statistics, yet he can't find a place on the NHL team.
Well, it does mean more than squat, because that's what they've done, playing against the same teams in the same league.
Bringing Locke into the comparison of White vs Maxwell, means squat, because he played in a way different junior league, and he doesn't even compare in terms of size and play.

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05-16-2008, 09:09 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by sbtatter View Post
Well, it does mean more than squat, because that's what they've done, playing against the same teams in the same league.
Bringing Locke into the comparison of White vs Maxwell, means squat, because he played in a way different junior league, and he doesn't even compare in terms of size and play.
I think the biggest question mark for Maxwell is his injuries. Besides that, despite all those numbers, I see Maxwell as being more able to bring his game to another level with much better players than what White can do. As you might know already, I'm not the greatest fan of White for various reasons. Not for what he has done in Juniors but I'M just trying to project the level of play he can bring in the NHL and I'm not convinced. Ready to eat some crow though. Maxwell seems to be the kind of guy that feeds his energy from the guys he plays with. White is already an initiator. And that's a great point for White. Though with that in mind, chances are Maxwell's ceiling seemed to be much higher than Whitey. No wonder why we keep saying, despite the number that you gave us, that Maxwell's place is definatley centering the 1st or 2nd line, while White might challenge Chipchura's for a 3rd line spot, if he makes it as a center.

I just don't see White's offensive game translating in the bigs. I just don't. Waiting to be wrong though.

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05-16-2008, 09:15 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I think the biggest question mark for Maxwell is his injuries. Besides that, despite all those numbers, I see Maxwell as being more able to bring his game to another level with much better players than what White can do. As you might know already, I'm not the greatest fan of White for various reasons. Not for what he has done in Juniors but I'M just trying to project the level of play he can bring in the NHL and I'm not convinced. Ready to eat some crow though. Maxwell seems to be the kind of guy that feeds his energy from the guys he plays with. White is already an initiator. And that's a great point for White. Though with that in mind, chances are Maxwell's ceiling seemed to be much higher than Whitey. No wonder why we keep saying, despite the number that you gave us, that Maxwell's place is definatley centering the 1st or 2nd line, while White might challenge Chipchura's for a 3rd line spot, if he makes it as a center.

I just don't see White's offensive game translating in the bigs. I just don't. Waiting to be wrong though.
I agree. They way White got all his points in juniors won't translate very well to professional hockey. He might be able to adapt, but for now Maxwell looks like a much better bet as an offensive player. Not that that makes him a better prospect. I mean White's game translates a heck of a lot better to being a defensive player in the NHL too.

In the context of this thread though, I haven't a clue which one is more NHL-ready. I'd be stunned if either of them played for the Habs next year though, neither of them are all that close to ready yet.

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05-16-2008, 09:16 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter View Post
Well, it does mean more than squat, because that's what they've done, playing against the same teams in the same league.
Bringing Locke into the comparison of White vs Maxwell, means squat, because he played in a way different junior league, and he doesn't even compare in terms of size and play.
I was just pointing out the fact that junior statistics is all about context, not comparison. It's regular to see junior players perform better when they reach the NHL because their speed was not really as necessary to put points on the boards in the junior leagues. The NHL requires a different mix, so trying to project players out of such point comparisons is a fruitless exercise.

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05-16-2008, 09:24 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
I was just pointing out the fact that junior statistics is all about context, not comparison. It's regular to see junior players perform better when they reach the NHL because their speed was not really as necessary to put points on the boards in the junior leagues. The NHL requires a different mix, so trying to project players out of such point comparisons is a fruitless exercise.
Well, projections are individual conjecture, points put up on teams in the same league (same division even) are fact. The fact is White has had a more productive junior career than Maxwell, even though a lot of people on here are guessing that Maxwell will have a better NHL career than White, based on a guess about supposed potential that Maxwell has not fulfilled yet. We'll see what everyone says after they both play a season in hamilton, I'll be glad to continue the debate then!

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05-16-2008, 09:25 AM
  #106
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Are both White and Maxwell joining Hamilton next year?

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05-16-2008, 09:28 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I think the biggest question mark for Maxwell is his injuries. Besides that, despite all those numbers, I see Maxwell as being more able to bring his game to another level with much better players than what White can do. As you might know already, I'm not the greatest fan of White for various reasons. Not for what he has done in Juniors but I'M just trying to project the level of play he can bring in the NHL and I'm not convinced. Ready to eat some crow though. Maxwell seems to be the kind of guy that feeds his energy from the guys he plays with. White is already an initiator. And that's a great point for White. Though with that in mind, chances are Maxwell's ceiling seemed to be much higher than Whitey. No wonder why we keep saying, despite the number that you gave us, that Maxwell's place is definatley centering the 1st or 2nd line, while White might challenge Chipchura's for a 3rd line spot, if he makes it as a center.

I just don't see White's offensive game translating in the bigs. I just don't. Waiting to be wrong though.
Just wanted to clarify how many league games you have seen both these guys play live, in person?
And if Maxwell ends up being your first or second line centre, oh boy, Montreal are going to be a sad team!!
They both have to develop a lot this season, White needs to work on speed and his temper, Maxwell to be more physical, consistent and try and stop being injured so much.
Just so you guys know, neither prospect are as good as 16 year old Schenn

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05-16-2008, 09:42 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by sbtatter View Post
Just wanted to clarify how many league games you have seen both these guys play live, in person?
And if Maxwell ends up being your first or second line centre, oh boy, Montreal are going to be a sad team!!
They both have to develop a lot this season, White needs to work on speed and his temper, Maxwell to be more physical, consistent and try and stop being injured so much.
Just so you guys know, neither prospect are as good as 16 year old Schenn
In games? None live, of course I live in Montreal and my job is not being a scout. Did see them live in all the development camps and rookie camps they've been in for the Habs, every single day for the duration of those camps. If we should wait for opinions of guys that saw the prospects in person, we would have to close this board....And by the way, Sabres fire most of their scouts and will mostly use videos to have a judgment on the kids. If an NHL team can do that, pretty sure some armchair scouts could do it as well. It's just that though. An opinion of a fan.

As far as Maxwell a first or second line, well he has no choice. Just don't see him as in the role of a 3rd line centerman.

So, again, I really hope I'm wrong 'cause we never have enough good prospects. But I choose to say what I think even if it may not be the most safest thing to say. 'Cause it's easier to say that Oliver Fortier will never be a goalscorer than to have some doubts on a guy like White who had a tremendous junior career....

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05-16-2008, 09:42 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by sbtatter View Post
Well, projections are individual conjecture, points put up on teams in the same league (same division even) are fact. The fact is White has had a more productive junior career than Maxwell, even though a lot of people on here are guessing that Maxwell will have a better NHL career than White, based on a guess about supposed potential that Maxwell has not fulfilled yet. We'll see what everyone says after they both play a season in hamilton, I'll be glad to continue the debate then!
Thing is, projecting jr. to pro is kind of what a lot of us do here. It's just sort of a game, and like Whitesnake pointed out, he'd be thrilled to be wrong.

I've seen White play maybe 3 or 4 televised games . He always seemed to be involved, always on the scoresheet, and I'm caught in between thinking his skillset may not fit at the next level, or he's one of those guys that doesn't seem to have much, but seems to succeed nonetheless.

Maxwell, I've never seen live. I heard one pre season game this year on radio and listened to the broadcasters commnets, that he was always around the puck, and seeemed to make things happen.

My brother lives out west, and isn't a fan of White's skating, but frankly, he's less an expert than I am and that isn't saying much.

If White can be the same style player he is now, at the pro level, well he's a prototype of what the team needs. I think Solr,Whitesnake and anyone else who isn't a believer will gladly be wrong.

No one's cheering for the kid to fail, just trying to play scout. Dick Irvin thought Steve Shutt would never make it.

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05-16-2008, 09:45 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter View Post
And if Maxwell ends up being your first or second line centre, oh boy, Montreal are going to be a sad team!!
I think the emergence of Plekanec is encouraging to us Habs fans, as far as Maxwell goes. We've already seen a fast, smart, smallish, somewhat perimeter player with the right makeup learn to elevate his game. We have reason to hope that Maxwell, with a better draft pedigree than Plek, to be developped by many of the same staff, can achieve similar results.

Not to take away from your boy White - he'll be a great asset. I just think Maxwell will adapt to the Habs' style of play better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter View Post
Just so you guys know, neither prospect are as good as 16 year old Schenn
I believe it. Isn't Schenn projected to be a top 5 pick next year? I'm excited to see him play.

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05-16-2008, 09:48 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I think the emergence of Plekanec is encouraging to us Habs fans, as far as Maxwell goes. We've already seen a fast, smart, smallish, somewhat perimeter player with the right makeup learn to elevate his game. We have reason to hope that Maxwell, with a better draft pedigree than Plek, to be developped by many of the same staff, can achieve similar results.

Not to take away from your boy White - he'll be a great asset. I just think Maxwell will adapt to the Habs' style of play better.



I believe it. Isn't Schenn projected to be a top 5 pick next year? I'm excited to see him play.
Schenn is amazing. Scores, hits, fights, whoever gets him will be lucky. He'll be in the top 3 next draft (09)

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
In games? None live, of course I live in Montreal and my job is not being a scout. Did see them live in all the development camps and rookie camps they've been in for the Habs, every single day for the duration of those camps. If we should wait for opinions of guys that saw the prospects in person, we would have to close this board....And by the way, Sabres fire most of their scouts and will mostly use videos to have a judgment on the kids. If an NHL team can do that, pretty sure some armchair scouts could do it as well. It's just that though. An opinion of a fan.

As far as Maxwell a first or second line, well he has no choice. Just don't see him as in the role of a 3rd line centerman.

So, again, I really hope I'm wrong 'cause we never have enough good prospects. But I choose to say what I think even if it may not be the most safest thing to say. 'Cause it's easier to say that Oliver Fortier will never be a goalscorer than to have some doubts on a guy like White who had a tremendous junior career....
Of course I believe in White, but taking him out of the equation Maxwell just doesn't have what it takes. You have to see Maxwell live in games to realize how much of the game passes him by. I'd take Galiardi ahead of him, even though he's soft as well.
Off topic, did you buy the CD?


Last edited by Beakermania*: 05-16-2008 at 07:35 PM.
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Old
05-16-2008, 09:54 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Thing is, projecting jr. to pro is kind of what a lot of us do here. It's just sort of a game, and like Whitesnake pointed out, he'd be thrilled to be wrong.

I've seen White play maybe 3 or 4 televised games . He always seemed to be involved, always on the scoresheet, and I'm caught in between thinking his skillset may not fit at the next level, or he's one of those guys that doesn't seem to have much, but seems to succeed nonetheless.

If White can be the same style player he is now, at the pro level, well he's a prototype of what the team needs. I think Solr,Whitesnake and anyone else who isn't a believer will gladly be wrong.

No one's cheering for the kid to fail, just trying to play scout. Dick Irvin thought Steve Shutt would never make it.
Exactly. I'm a Habs fan, so why wouldn't I want to be wrong on something like this. If White can improve his speed and becomes Kris Draper, please tell me why I wouldn't be ecstatic about it. MY problem is like I already mentioned all the dev.camps and rookie camps that I saw, in my opinion, he looked out of place most of the time. And I might have been real unlucky, but I've seen White approx. 10+times on Internet and TV and never was I blown away as far as his skillset is concerned.

But my concern is the ability to bring it to another level that's all. Just a fan playing scout.

But like you said, if what we can see now, he brings it to the NHL level. Well we don't have enough of those players. Can't wait to see the adjustment he makes in the AHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter View Post
Of course I believe in White, but taking him out of the equation Maxwell just doesn't have what it takes. You have to see Maxwell live in games to realize how much of the game passes him by. I'd take Galiardi ahead of him, even though he's soft as well.
Off topic, did you buy the CD?
I did! But didn't listen to it yet, can you imagine? Don't have the time but will take it this weekend. Will give you my scouting report on the CD....


Last edited by Beakermania*: 05-16-2008 at 07:38 PM.
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Old
05-16-2008, 10:09 AM
  #113
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Dandenault definitely needs to be moved.

Bouillon should be considered as well. Almost $2 million for a #6 d-man? Unacceptable. (I consider Gorges #4, O'Byrne #5).
Bouillon is a good leader and solid player. He's clearly #5 as Brisebois and O'byrne split time at #6. Yeah, he probably makes a few more dollars than he should, but I see no logic in trading him just for that. When his contract is up, if Valenteko and O'byrne have taken the next step, then let him walk to give both top 6 spots.

Dandenault is a completely different scenario, he's not contributing much and is unhappy. He has to be moved, wether by trade, waivers or buyout.


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05-16-2008, 10:35 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Gainey: "Player evaluation is not done"

Basically...
as if Ryder would even sign here...

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05-16-2008, 10:41 AM
  #115
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Wich Rookie Do You Want To See With The Habs Next Season?

Ok; the scenario is as such:

Mathieu Dandenault will either be bought out or traded.

Brian Smolinsky will be let go.

Michael Ryder will also go elsewhere

Mikhail Grabovski's spot is also on the line and doubtful


So those are 3 to 4 spots to fill on the roster. The Habs will probably sign a UFA somewhat like Kostopoulos (good utility player) and another guy, maybe, just maybe a scorer.

So lets say there are just two spots left on the team:
wich rookies from the list below would you like to see with the team?

(pick only two)

Pavel Valentenko
Gregory Stewart
Matt D'Agostini
Kyle Chipchura
Mathieu Carle
Max Pacioretty


I ask you nicely and gently to discuss this please.

None!!!

I think the Habs should fill the roster spots with veteran free agent players who have been playing for a few years. We had a lot of rookies and relatively in-experienced players on the roster last year and we done good all season long, but never got anywhere in the playoffs.
I think we need to worry about progressing the players we have now and surround them with good free agents instead of introducing more rookies into the lineup.

We need to add some grit and size upfront and our defence is pretty secure right now, so unless a rookie comes into camp and proves he is the best player to fill any open roster spots, I would rather see a veteran there instead.

We can't continue to be the youngest team in the league every year, we have to give the youngsters we have now a chance to grow and learn from the veterans around them.

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05-16-2008, 11:18 AM
  #116
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The two that "earn" it. (if any do)

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05-16-2008, 11:35 AM
  #117
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Only Chipchura. There's only one spot available. Valentkenko can outplay O'Byrne and Brisebois this fall, but he should be back in Hamilton. I think it's time for a trade.

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05-16-2008, 01:14 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Poutine View Post
Wich Rookie Do You Want To See With The Habs Next Season?

Ok; the scenario is as such:

Mathieu Dandenault will either be bought out or traded.

Brian Smolinsky will be let go.

Michael Ryder will also go elsewhere

Mikhail Grabovski's spot is also on the line and doubtful


So those are 3 to 4 spots to fill on the roster. The Habs will probably sign a UFA somewhat like Kostopoulos (good utility player) and another guy, maybe, just maybe a scorer.

So lets say there are just two spots left on the team:
wich rookies from the list below would you like to see with the team?

(pick only two)

Pavel Valentenko
Gregory Stewart
Matt D'Agostini
Kyle Chipchura
Mathieu Carle
Max Pacioretty


I ask you nicely and gently to discuss this please.
Claude Giroux...
Oups, we did not draft him...

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05-17-2008, 11:25 AM
  #119
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chipchura & d'ag

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05-17-2008, 12:16 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
None!!!

I think the Habs should fill the roster spots with veteran free agent players who have been playing for a few years. We had a lot of rookies and relatively in-experienced players on the roster last year and we done good all season long, but never got anywhere in the playoffs.
I think we need to worry about progressing the players we have now and surround them with good free agents instead of introducing more rookies into the lineup.

We need to add some grit and size upfront and our defence is pretty secure right now, so unless a rookie comes into camp and proves he is the best player to fill any open roster spots, I would rather see a veteran there instead.

We can't continue to be the youngest team in the league every year, we have to give the youngsters we have now a chance to grow and learn from the veterans around them.
I completely agree. If we bring in another rookie or two, thne there will be little experience. We need to concentrate on developing and training the rookies we already have. If a veteran player isn't brought in, we will have even less experinece than the past season, and our chances to succeed in the playoffs will be minimal.

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05-17-2008, 12:28 PM
  #121
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Claude Giroux...
Oups, we did not draft him...
Oops, we don't want you here.

Flyers board is just a couple clicks away.

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05-17-2008, 02:32 PM
  #122
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Given the number of rookies lately, I wouldn't be shocked if we see no true rookies this season, with the possible exception of a grinder type like Stewart who likely earned himself a second look.

Chips, O'byrne and such having burned their status, no?

To pick two though, Stewart and Valentenko likely see some time.

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05-17-2008, 05:00 PM
  #123
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The only one who intrigues me is Max Pacioretty, although it's doubtful he'll play in the NHL so soon. I'm mildly interested in Kyle Chipchura, who I assume will be brought in as a replacement for Smolinski. I don't expect Timmins to be able to draft an 18-year-old who will make the team immediately. I think d'Agostini is at least a year away.

I don't foresee the promotion of another young Dman next season. The Habs already have 7 and Ryan O'Byrne has yet to be worked in as a full time replacement for Brisebois.

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05-17-2008, 05:20 PM
  #124
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*Quietly answers*

I would like to see Chipchura and Valentenko playing with the Habs at some point next season.
Same here, except with Chipchura for the whole year if he deserve it of course.

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05-17-2008, 05:58 PM
  #125
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It would be great to see Chipchura and Stewart get alot of time this season.

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