HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Enough Already About Toughness. Let's Think About Talent

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-15-2008, 03:24 PM
  #51
131313
Registered User
 
131313's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,166
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
It's been a mantra for a decade now.

The Habs are in need of leadership, grit... and a legit enforcer.
And of course , the mythical big right handed center with skill we have been looking for for the past decade

Actually i shouldn't use since it's true !.

131313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2008, 03:31 PM
  #52
Lord Horse
Next Day's News
 
Lord Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Full City
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan View Post
I would like to see some statistical data that the combination of skill and toughness is more abundant in Canadian players vs players from any other country. Assumptions don't always hold true. Using terms such as "undeniable" and "obvious fact" seems disengenous in the absence of data. I think it's possible that Finland, for instance, produces a similar percentage of skilled and tough players to Canada. I don't know this but I don't discount it. Then of course we may need to back up and be sure that we are using the same definition of toughness. I think that toughness, however we define it, is universal. I don't care where the Habs scout as long as they can ice a team that can compete for the Stanley Cup.
Bah. "Show me the data." There's 100 years' worth out there. Show me a post with your stated position, first of all, and pay attention to what I'm saying, secondly.

I am NOT saying the magic *combination* of skill and toughness is more abundant in Canada. Overall team full of Canadians are more likely to run you over than other teams. To put it flatly, Canadian squads may well decide to beat you by pummelling you for 60 minutes. I really am just talking about that kind of tough.

There is no comparative around the world for that kind of game. No other country plays it as much or as well.

You happened to cite Finland in this post, which is interesting because it is known that the Finns have most tried to model their game on the Canadians during the last decade or so. And it shows, they play great team defense, check tenaciously, put their bodies in play more and lo and behold they are getting results.

Every country can count on players who are skilled and gritty. But every NHL team needs a few bulldozers and at least one had better be able to score. I happen to think Canada is the best place to look. I'm not saying it's the only place or that your nationality precludes you from doing it.

Lord Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2008, 03:36 PM
  #53
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
Bah. "Show me the data." There's 100 years' worth out there. Show me a post with your stated position, first of all, and pay attention to what I'm saying, secondly.

I am NOT saying the magic *combination* of skill and toughness is more abundant in Canada. Overall team full of Canadians are more likely to run you over than other teams. To put it flatly, Canadian squads may well decide to beat you by pummelling you for 60 minutes. I really am just talking about that kind of tough.

There is no comparative around the world for that kind of game. No other country plays it as much or as well.

You happened to cite Finland in this post, which is interesting because it is known that the Finns have most tried to model their game on the Canadians during the last decade or so. And it shows, they play great team defense, check tenaciously, put their bodies in play more and lo and behold they are getting results.

Every country can count on players who are skilled and gritty. But every NHL team needs a few bulldozers and at least one had better be able to score. I happen to think Canada is the best place to look. I'm not saying it's the only place or that your nationality precludes you from doing it.
Well yeah, 65-70% of the players in the league are from here, so I can't argue that, but you look everywhere, and draft anywhere. The guys that you are envisoning may already be in the pipeline, just not ready to contribute.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2008, 03:40 PM
  #54
131313
Registered User
 
131313's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,166
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
Bah. "Show me the data." There's 100 years' worth out there. Show me a post with your stated position, first of all, and pay attention to what I'm saying, secondly.

I am NOT saying the magic *combination* of skill and toughness is more abundant in Canada. Overall team full of Canadians are more likely to run you over than other teams. To put it flatly, Canadian squads may well decide to beat you by pummelling you for 60 minutes. I really am just talking about that kind of tough.

There is no comparative around the world for that kind of game. No other country plays it as much or as well.

You happened to cite Finland in this post, which is interesting because it is known that the Finns have most tried to model their game on the Canadians during the last decade or so. And it shows, they play great team defense, check tenaciously, put their bodies in play more and lo and behold they are getting results.

Every country can count on players who are skilled and gritty. But every NHL team needs a few bulldozers and at least one had better be able to score. I happen to think Canada is the best place to look. I'm not saying it's the only place or that your nationality precludes you from doing it.
I tend to agree with you but you're going to be called a racist , a biggot and a Don Cherry by some people for stating it.

I got a lot of heat on another Habs boards for stating that the Habs would benefit from having more Canadian blood within their ranks.

131313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2008, 05:15 PM
  #55
Istvan
Registered User
 
Istvan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,272
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I think hockey's gotten to the point where tough, gritty play is universal. Some countries have charcteristics, ie, I don't see many Russian grinder types, but toughness in terms of willingness to play thru stuff is no longer a Canadian thing. If fighting is really what we're talking about, well Canadian kids for the most part are brought through Jr. with this as part of the game.

Pro or con, that element is most often NA, and it seems that European players who can deliver a big hit, but for the most part don't fight, are criticized for not doing so, as there seems to be a weird notion that body checking should be relative to fighting. I wonder what part of Sweden Gainey's from ?
I think in the NA culture toughness and fighting are probably inseparable and this complicates discussions on the topic of "toughness" or "grit". I always thought of Mats Naslund as one tough little guy to survive in the old NHL and to produce in the old NHL. Gainey, of course, is a great example of toughness without the glove dropping.

Istvan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2008, 07:04 PM
  #56
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Label View Post
I tend to agree with you but you're going to be called a racist , a biggot and a Don Cherry by some people for stating it.

I got a lot of heat on another Habs boards for stating that the Habs would benefit from having more Canadian blood within their ranks.
Team ethnicity is a sensitive subject, and I suppose it's hard to talk about it and sound ok. I think that teams can be affected by the mix, depending on how the cliques form. I guess it's important to have guys who understand that and to be aware of it. I think hearing a few players talk about this, experienced guys, a ppanel of guys with differnt backgrounds would be very informative.

When a guy says a team needs Canadian blood, it's assumed that he means a tougher team. Nationalities seem to be euphemisms for style of play at times, though I don't know that you mean that.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2008, 10:20 PM
  #57
Lord Horse
Next Day's News
 
Lord Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Full City
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Well yeah, 65-70% of the players in the league are from here, so I can't argue that, but you look everywhere, and draft anywhere. The guys that you are envisoning may already be in the pipeline, just not ready to contribute.
I know that, there's no "magical land" that only produces one type of player.

My favorite bit on this toughness/size issue was from davedave:

Quote:
Originally Posted by davedave;
Apart from Koivu and Kovalev, Higgins and SKostitsyn showed some willingness to play that game. While you want every player to be willing, you can't expect your smaller skilled players to always go to the front of the net to be abused by the Hatchers and Charas of the league. Likewise, you don't just want your skilled players to be willing to battle in the corners, you also want a player who relishes going into the corners to really give it to the other team's defencemen.
Not many of our current prospects combine bully-nature with scoring talent. Heck, not many seem capable of bullying anyone. Where are you most likely going to find guys who can fill that role? Sweden? Switzerland?

And when will Jimmy Bonneau get at least an acknowledgement from the big club that he is the single guy in the cupboard who can do what he does?

Lord Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2008, 10:24 PM
  #58
Ice Poutine
Photoshop Nut
 
Ice Poutine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: ____
Country: Martinique
Posts: 11,380
vCash: 1380
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
Where are you most likely going to find guys who can fill that role? Sweden? Switzerland?
I'm trying to find names of Swedish enforcers who played in the NHL and ruled the ice with toughness and gri... nope, i draw a blank here.

Ok, so i'll go scour the net to see the illustrious careers of Swiss fighters/enforcers and will return with my report as quickly as i find one... i promise!!





(dont wait up)

Ice Poutine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2008, 10:54 PM
  #59
Istvan
Registered User
 
Istvan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,272
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
I know that, there's no "magical land" that only produces one type of player.

My favorite bit on this toughness/size issue was from davedave:



Not many of our current prospects combine bully-nature with scoring talent. Heck, not many seem capable of bullying anyone. Where are you most likely going to find guys who can fill that role? Sweden? Switzerland?

And when will Jimmy Bonneau get at least an acknowledgement from the big club that he is the single guy in the cupboard who can do what he does?
O.K. Canada produces the best fighters in hockey with a few exceptions such as Chara. Got it.

Istvan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2008, 10:56 PM
  #60
Ice Poutine
Photoshop Nut
 
Ice Poutine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: ____
Country: Martinique
Posts: 11,380
vCash: 1380
Just so you guys know: i'm still looking for Swiss fighters/enforcers in the NHL.

I wont let you down!

Ice Poutine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2008, 11:28 AM
  #61
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 500
Lets keep the personal jabs... subtle or not out of this.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2008, 11:59 AM
  #62
toshiro
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Western Canuckland
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,951
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to toshiro
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafRefereeeeeees View Post
Maybe it's the style we play. Detroit always seems to have puck support and they have 3 elite puck movers on the blueline. They also have guys who go to the net AND STAY THERE (Holmstrom and Franzen). These same guys also dig the puck off the wall and give it to their other skill guys and THEN they go to the net again.

Also, when the late man comes into the picture, if the play isn't there, he'll go down low into the cycle right away. I don't notice us doing that. Usually we lose the puck soon afterwards. Detroit has way more possession time down low than we do.

Detroit also has a more active trap with the defense stunting up into the neutral zone.

Hey, gotta compare yourself to the best.
Exactly. The Habs need more elite grinders ie more holmstroms vs Kotsops but also more top flight talent on all lines and on 2-3 pairings.

toshiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2008, 12:06 PM
  #63
LesCanadiens
Registered User
 
LesCanadiens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Okanagan Baby!
Posts: 2,822
vCash: 500
You'd be amazed how more skilled our players would be with a little sprinkling of balls-to-the-wall, size, grit and skill on the ice alongside them.

I still believe Lats will develop into one of those types....he's still very young, but we need some of that now.

We have lots of skilled players that are relatively young. Of course, if we can improve our present skill level with a deal that makes sense...we do it. Problem is, we deal from a position of weakness due to the idiotic tax laws in Quebec. You want the Habs to improve at a faster clip? Fight that tax every chance you get. The Habs should be insulated from that like a heritage or cultural entity which is a part of the fabric of the province as a whole. I don't know why the moronic politicians don't understand the impact (positively) on the entire province that a championship team makes.

LesCanadiens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2008, 12:08 PM
  #64
Licou
Registered User
 
Licou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Longuh
Country:
Posts: 1,402
vCash: 500
I think they key is finding a player that will fare well in playoff hockey is resiliency and some "metal toughness". Guys like Datsyuk or Zeterberg aren't human recking balls on the ice, yet they are extremely effective even in the post season. They are really hard to push off the puck.. actually they are really hard to hit. They aren't afraid to go to the net and score ugly goals if they need too (which doesn't happen a lot, because they are so damned talented!) Moreover, they check hard and pick pocket every opposing player with the puck.

Oh yeah, they also have a perennial Norris trophy winning defensman to back them up... I think you guys know that this before mentioned player doesn't really hit either...

They key is to have a group of players that hate loosing, nothing more, nothing less....

Licou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2008, 06:45 PM
  #65
maci4life
Registered User
 
maci4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Country: Macedonia
Posts: 887
vCash: 500
to me, toughness doesn't equal checking along the boards. it equals having balls. Anyone can throw the check in hockey. Sometimes you catch the guy sometimes you don't. It takes heart ( the real toughness) to stay in front of that net and plant yourself knowing that you will get punched, hacked, slashed, and checked around while possible getting a puck in the gonads from your own teammates. Mtl has guys that want to check but doesn't have anyone that has the toughness to be able to stay in front of the net and take one for the team time after time.

Kovalev showed that he could do it but he was one person,and 3 games too late with no supporting cast.

On a side note..it's kinda funny how i was blasted for picking Thornton as the one guy mtl should pick that would make the difference on this team/ be the most valuable. He's the size, grit, hands and toughness we needed. I would have been the difference, and i believe sundin ( this year) can be that same difference.

i'm not worried about mtl's defence. I think the big rookies are very close to stepping in and filling some shoes. Valentenko, o'byrne ( regularly playing),mcdonough ( possibly) are all big guys that may find a place on the roster next year.

The forwards are still smallish and cannot step up to the plate when push comes to shove.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 05-19-2008 at 11:09 PM.
maci4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2008, 07:16 PM
  #66
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LesCanadiens View Post
You'd be amazed how more skilled our players would be with a little sprinkling of balls-to-the-wall, size, grit and skill on the ice alongside them.

I still believe Lats will develop into one of those types....he's still very young, but we need some of that now.

We have lots of skilled players that are relatively young. Of course, if we can improve our present skill level with a deal that makes sense...we do it. Problem is, we deal from a position of weakness due to the idiotic tax laws in Quebec. You want the Habs to improve at a faster clip? Fight that tax every chance you get. The Habs should be insulated from that like a heritage or cultural entity which is a part of the fabric of the province as a whole. I don't know why the moronic politicians don't understand the impact (positively) on the entire province that a championship team makes.
Wait, politicians can understand some things? Like why the hell we still have the possibility to buy this:

To come back to the thread subject: Max Paccioretty, Kyle Chipchura, Saku Koivu--->Ben Maxwell, Ryan White, Andrew Conboy. Ie the "problem" is already well recognized and imo fixed.

SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2008, 07:32 PM
  #67
Uwey
Registered User
 
Uwey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lunenburg, NS
Country: Canada
Posts: 551
vCash: 500
Let put the blame, where the blame belongs, the league. They have allowed the game to slide back towards the a game where size, not skill is more important.

As I have pointed out to others over the past several weeks, the fact that Derian Hatcher was being considered a force in the first two rounds of the playoffs is a tell-tale sign of where the league is headed again. The first two seasons after the lockout Hatcher was considered a dinosaur that the game had passed by with its swing towards skill.

The Habs skilled players can not play their game if knuckle dragging lugs like Hatcher are continually allowed to tackle, drag down, hold, crosscheck & puch the skilled players into the ice!!!

BTW, Aaron Ward of the Bruins was another allowed to play that game as well in the first series. He spent more time sitting on Kovalev's back than he did on his skates in that series!!!

Uwey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-20-2008, 09:52 AM
  #68
Istvan
Registered User
 
Istvan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,272
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uwey View Post
Let put the blame, where the blame belongs, the league. They have allowed the game to slide back towards the a game where size, not skill is more important.

As I have pointed out to others over the past several weeks, the fact that Derian Hatcher was being considered a force in the first two rounds of the playoffs is a tell-tale sign of where the league is headed again. The first two seasons after the lockout Hatcher was considered a dinosaur that the game had passed by with its swing towards skill.

The Habs skilled players can not play their game if knuckle dragging lugs like Hatcher are continually allowed to tackle, drag down, hold, crosscheck & puch the skilled players into the ice!!!

BTW, Aaron Ward of the Bruins was another allowed to play that game as well in the first series. He spent more time sitting on Kovalev's back than he did on his skates in that series!!!
Interestingly, during the post season press conference BG said something to the effect that the Habs were building a team "that can win within the rules". Coincidentally, his comment brought Aaron Ward to mind.

Istvan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-20-2008, 10:42 AM
  #69
habs24
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 335
vCash: 500
Riley Cote is a UFA this year. Habs should put a bid in for him. Also Eric Godard is unrestricted as well. Either one of these guys would be a good start.

habs24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-20-2008, 12:48 PM
  #70
Lord Horse
Next Day's News
 
Lord Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Full City
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan View Post
Interestingly, during the post season press conference BG said something to the effect that the Habs were building a team "that can win within the rules". Coincidentally, his comment brought Aaron Ward to mind.
That was a profound statement IMO. To me it was a signal that the Detroit Red Wings are the model more than, say, last year's Mighty Ducks or this year's Flyers. (Thank God!) I don't disagree with Gainey at all; the only intelligent way to build a team is to win legally, that way no matter how the rules get called you will always have a chance with your skill. You just need to find the skill with the size.

It's disappointing that "the rules" aren't always "the rules" in the playoffs though.... I wonder how much having Gainey on the Rules Committee could influence the team's direction?

I really think that the current state of hockey demands a bruiser or two to allow the most talented guys the space to use their gifts.... any indication that this is going to change?

Lord Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-20-2008, 02:37 PM
  #71
Istvan
Registered User
 
Istvan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,272
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
That was a profound statement IMO. To me it was a signal that the Detroit Red Wings are the model more than, say, last year's Mighty Ducks or this year's Flyers. (Thank God!) I don't disagree with Gainey at all; the only intelligent way to build a team is to win legally, that way no matter how the rules get called you will always have a chance with your skill. You just need to find the skill with the size.

It's disappointing that "the rules" aren't always "the rules" in the playoffs though.... I wonder how much having Gainey on the Rules Committee could influence the team's direction?

I really think that the current state of hockey demands a bruiser or two to allow the most talented guys the space to use their gifts.... any indication that this is going to change?
I have to agree on all counts. Perhaps O'Byrne and Stewart will help open a little space for the more skill oriented guys. btw how do you highlight/bold a single phrase in a post. thanks.

Istvan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-20-2008, 02:58 PM
  #72
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan View Post
I have to agree on all counts. Perhaps O'Byrne and Stewart will help open a little space for the more skill oriented guys. btw how do you highlight/bold a single phrase in a post. thanks.
put [B] at the start of what you want to bold and a /b in the [] brackets at the end fo what you want to bold.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2008, 11:53 AM
  #73
Chris Nilan
Registered User
 
Chris Nilan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 225
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LesCanadiens View Post
You'd be amazed how more skilled our players would be with a little sprinkling of balls-to-the-wall, size, grit and skill on the ice alongside them.

I still believe Lats will develop into one of those types....he's still very young, but we need some of that now.

We have lots of skilled players that are relatively young. Of course, if we can improve our present skill level with a deal that makes sense...we do it. Problem is, we deal from a position of weakness due to the idiotic tax laws in Quebec. You want the Habs to improve at a faster clip? Fight that tax every chance you get. The Habs should be insulated from that like a heritage or cultural entity which is a part of the fabric of the province as a whole. I don't know why the moronic politicians don't understand the impact (positively) on the entire province that a championship team makes.
Um, this is a myth, too.

Check out the research done in Economics and in Sport Sociology. Professional sports franchises are actually a drain on local economies.

They do create jobs, but the majority are low-paying and seasonal, which creates a drain on social services and there is little actual "cash infusion" to the local economy. The big money goes to a very small proportion of people who typically live elsewhere. The Quebec thing is largely a myth, too. The size of the income tax might be higher in one shot, but the associated costs of living and the incremental taxation are lower. Several US states have instituted taxation on visiting athletes and performers and also have very high entertainment, airport, taxi and hotel taxes to attack visiting athletes, performers and fans. Sports franchises almost never pay for their own stadiums and very few pay taxes on their buildings. Residents pay for this through provincial/state and municipal taxes or other levies. This does not benefit the province. For example, Ontario took a massive hit on Skydome/Rogers Centre and they had two championship teams, consecutively, and set MLB attendance records, while doing it. If anything, a high Cdn dollar makes any Cdn team more attractive. The cost of living in Canada is still substantially lower and believe it or not, taxation actually contributes to a lower cost of living. Taxation purchases services in bulk rather than incrementally and serves as a hedge against corporate gouging for inelastic commodities.

Finally, I wish people would also stop talking about NHL teams and market size. MYTH. In a cap league, with minimum and maximum spending amounts, there are no market sizes when it comes to signing players. Look at Green Bay. How did they get Reggie White and others to go there? Green Bay is smaller than Hamilton. It's a cap league. Put a winning team out there and people will want to play.

Maybe if people read more and listened to Don Cherry and the Tim Hortons gang less . . .

Chris Nilan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:20 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.