Consider that the Flyers finished (I believe) 2nd last in the entire league in '06 - '07 and with some savy trades and free agent signings, Flyers finished in the "final four" (playoffs) just one year later, with the biggest team improvement in points total within that period of time!
It's a mistake to think the Flyers were this horrible talentless team last year. Rather they were a team that catastrophically underachieved.
The Flyers were a 101-point team in 05-06. They were a 101-point team in 03-04. They were terrible in 06-07, but that was due to injuries and terrible coaching, not so much to player personnel; it was a bump in the road. While Holmgren's moves were laudable, and they certainly were flashy, he didn't start with nothing. His moves weren't the only catalyst for turning the team into a 95-point team with a Cinderella playoff run.
Gainey has done a good job with the Habs and as a Habs fan I appreciate what he has done for the Canadiens organization, but, (and despite the fact that I dislike the guy) I feel Paul Holmgren has done a more amazing job as Flyers GM in just one year!
Consider that the Flyers finished (I believe) 2nd last in the entire league in '06 - '07 and with some savy trades and free agent signings, Flyers finished in the "final four" (playoffs) just one year later, with the biggest team improvement in points total within that period of time!
I am of the opinion that this was based on things as they existed at the end of the regular season, like the NHL awards, thus it makes far more sense to give it to Gainey over Holmgren. When you consider the playoffs, it gets tougher, obviously.
I am of the opinion that this was based on things as they existed at the end of the regular season, like the NHL awards, thus it makes far more sense to give it to Gainey over Holmgren. When you consider the playoffs, it gets tougher, obviously.
When you discount the playoffs I can see your point - to a degree.
Although Habs finished first in the east, Philly had the greatest regular season total points improvement in the entire league!
It's a mistake to think the Flyers were this horrible talentless team last year. Rather they were a team that catastrophically underachieved.
The Flyers were a 101-point team in 05-06. They were a 101-point team in 03-04. They were terrible in 06-07, but that was due to injuries and terrible coaching, not so much to player personnel; it was a bump in the road. While Holmgren's moves were laudable, and they certainly were flashy, he didn't start with nothing. His moves weren't the only catalyst for turning the team into a 95-point team with a Cinderella playoff run.
I strongly disagree with Holmgren's pick by some. Yes, the Flyers came back strong this year, and they went to the final four. But at what cost? They have enormous contracts given to Richards, Brière, Hartnell and Timmonen, and they will most likely re-sign Carter to a long term deal too. What that means is that this very core of players needs to win together every year; they have very little room for improvement from now on. If in two or three years they are still fighting for a playoff spot and not getting anywhere, Holmgren will be seen as a pretty bad GM with very little long term vision...
One thing I liked about Gainey (and about Ken Holland who would have been my pick) is how they made a "virage jeunesse" without tanking. Tanking just for the sake of rebuilding doesn't deserve much credit. Switching the core of your team to young players while fighting for a playoff spot and making a run in the playoffs every year is nothing short of phenomenal. Holland kept the Red Wings strong despite the departures of Yzerman, Fedorov and Shanahan, developing new stars in Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Holstrom (add now Franzen to the list). Gainey took the team from Theodore, Koivu, Ribeiro and Brisebois and switched to one of the youngest teams in the NHL without missing a beat. That is great management to me and deserves credit. I think Gainey could definitely improve on trades but otherwise, he really did something special with that team.
My pick however, would have been Ken Holland for how he moved the team from one core to the other while remaining Stanley cup contenders. That's a feat!
Here's a needlessly long post about Gainey and what he did in Montreal. He had 4 off seasons and seasons to do his work. Technically, there's one year left in the 5 year plan as he couldn't do anything in the lockout year.
Bob Gainey was hired as Executive Vice President and General Manager in June 2003.
Montreal Canadiens BEFORE Gainey.
In 1999 Habs began their sorry excuse for rebuilding by trading Damphousse and Recchi for Zubrus, and a first rounder (Marcel Hossa). What made it a sorry excuse is that they went and traded a 1st round pick, which turned out to be Branislav Mezei, for Linden. In 2000 they traded Malakhov for a prospect named Souray and a 2nd. In 2001 they traded Linden, Zubrus (pretty much what they got for Recchi) and the 2nd they got for Malakhov, for Zednik, Bulis, and a 1st (Perezhogin). Then the same year, they went on and decided to sign and acquire a bunch of vets; Gratton, Traverse, Juneau, Gilmour, Quintal, Dackell, Perrault. Drafted Komisarek and Plekanec. In 2002 they do nothing, but they did somehow manage to make the playoffs and even made it to the second round. Drafted Higgins and signed Mariusz Czerkawski and Randy Mckay.
Forwards
Saku Koivu
Richard Zednik
Yanic Perreault
Jan Bulis
Andreas Dackell
Donald Audette
Oleg Petrov
Joe Juneau
Randy McKay
Chad Kilger
Niklas Sundstrom
Mariusz Czerkawski
Bill Lindsay
Gordie Dwyer
Sylvain Blouin
Defensemen
Andrei Markov
Patrice Brisebois
Craig Rivet
Patrick Traverse
Stephane Quintal
Karl Dykhuis
Francis Bouillon
Sheldon Souray (didn't play this season)
Goalies
Jose Theodore
Mathieu Garon
Top Prospects in system:
Mike Ribeiro
Mike Komisarek
Francois Beauchemin
Ron Hainsey
Chris Higgins
Tomas Plekanec
Jozef Balej
Alex Perezhogin
Marcel Hossa
Michael Ryder
Duncan Milroy
Konstantin Korneyev
Moves
-Signed Pierre Dagenais (free agent from Florida)
-claimed Steve Begin of waivers
-loses Kilger on waivers
-Gets rid of Donald Audette
-Rangers traded Alexei Kovalev to Montreal for Josef Balej and a 2nd round pick in 2004 (Bruce Graham).
-Minnesota traded Jim Dowd to Montreal for a 4th round pick in 2004 (Julien Sprunger).
-Los Angeles traded Radek Bonk and Cristobal Huet to Montreal for Matthieu Garon and a 3rd round pick (Paul Baier).
-Signed Yann Danis
Roster: (no order)
Forwards
Alex Kovalev
Mike Ribeiro
Michael Ryder
Saku Koivu
Richard Zednik
Yanic Perreault
Jan Bulis
Pierre Dagenais
Niklas Sundstrom
Joe Juneau
Steve Begin
Jason Ward
Andreas Dackell
Jim Dowd
Darren Langdon
Defensemen
Andrei Markov
Craig Rivet
Mike Komisarek
Sheldon Souray
Patrice Brisebois
Francis Bouillon
Stephane Quintal
Goalies
Jose Theodore
Mathieu Garon
Top prospects
Andrei Kostitsyn
Maxim Lapierre
Ryan O'Byrne
Jaroslav Halak
Yann Danis
Christopher Higgins
Tomas Plekanec
Francois Beauchemin
Ron Hainsey
Alex Perezhogin
Marcel Hossa
Duncan Milroy
Konstantin Korneyev
LOCKOUT YEAR of Gainey
2004/2005 ------------------------------
Moves
-Loses Beauchemin to waivers as he wanted him to play in Hamilton. Caused NHL to implement rule that players can be sent down without going on waivers.
Prospect list
Kyle Chipchura
Alex Emelin
Mikhail Grabovski
Mark Streit (old but drafted in 04)
Andrei Kostitsyn
Maxim Lapierre
Ryan O'Byrne
Jaroslav Halak
Yann Danis
Christopher Higgins
Tomas Plekanec
Ron Hainsey
Alex Perezhogin
Marcel Hossa
Duncan Milroy
Konstantin Korneyev
SECOND Season of Gainey
2005/2006 82 games 42 wins 31losses 9 otl 93 points
Moves
-Signed Mathieu Dandenault
-September 30 2005: To New York Rangers: Marcel Hossa
To Montreal Canadiens: Garth Murray
- Lost Hainsey on recall waivers
-March 8, 2006 : To Colorado Avalanche: Jose Theodore
To Montreal Canadiens : David Aebischer
-March 9, 2006: To Montreal Canadiens : Todd Simpson
To Chicago Blackhawks : 6th round pick in 2006 (Chris Auger)
Roster: (no order)
Forwards
Alexander Perezhogin
Christopher Higgins
Tomas Plekanec
Alex Kovalev
Mike Ribeiro
Michael Ryder
Jan Bulis
Steve Begin
Saku Koivu
Pierre Dagenais
Radek Bonk
Richard Zednik
Niklas Sundstrom
Aaron Downey
Garth Murray
Defensemen
Andrei Markov
Sheldon Souray
Craig Rivet
Mike Komisarek
Mark Streit
Mathieu Dandenault
Francis Bouillon
Todd Simpson
Goalies
Cristobal Huet
David Aebischer
Top Prospects
Carey Price
Guillaume Latendresse
Maxim Lapierre
Andrei Kostitsyn
Sergei Kostitsyn
Kyle Chipchura
Alex Emelin
Matt D'Agostini
Mikhail Grabovski
Ryan O'Byrne
Jaroslav Halak
Yann Danis
Konstantin Korneyev
Phillipe Paquet
JT Wyman
THIRD season of Gainey *worst season statistically as Habs GM. Missed playoffs for the first time under his rein despite having the 7th most wins in the Eastern conference. Went through losing his daughter.
Moves
-July 12, 2006: To Montreal Canadiens : Mike Johnson
To Phoenix Coyotes : 4th round pick (Vladimir Ruzicka) in 2007
-July 12, 2006: To Washington Capitals : Richard Zednik
To Montreal Canadiens : 3rd round pick (Olivier Fortier) in 2007
- Signed Sergei Samsonov
-September 30, 2006: To Dallas Stars: Mike Ribeiro and a 6th round pick in 2008 To Montreal Canadiens : Janne Niinimaa and a 5th round pick (Andrew Conboy) in 2007
- Claimed Patrick Traverse off waivers
- December 15, 2006: To Montreal Canadiens : Mathieu Biron
To San Jose Sharks : Patrick Traverse
-Claimed Leighton of waivers
- February 25, 2007: To San Jose Sharks : Craig Rivet and a 5th round pick in 2008 To Montreal Canadiens : Josh Gorges and 1st round pick in 2007 (Max Pacioretty)
-Traded 7th round pick to Rangers for Ryan Russell
-Traded Leighton to Carolina for a 7th round pick in 2007 (Scott Kishel)
Roster: (no order)
Forwards
Guillaume Latendresse
Maxim Lapierre
Christopher Higgins
Alexander Perezhogin
Garth Murray
Tomas Plekanec
Michael Ryder
Sergei Samsonov
Steve Begin
Radek Bonk
Aaron Downey
Mike Johnson
Saku Koivu
Alex Kovalev
Defensemen
Andrei Markov
Mark Streit
Mike Komisarek
Sheldon Souray
Mathieu Dandenault
Janne Niinimaa
Francis Bouillon
Josh Gorges
Goalies
Cristobal Huet
David Aebischer
Jaroslav Halak
Top Prospects
Carey Price
Andrei Kostitsyn
Sergei Kostitsyn
David Fischer
Pavel Valentenko
Ben Maxwell
Ryan White
Kyle Chipchura
Alex Emelin
Matt D'Agostini
Mikhail Grabovski
Ryan O'Byrne
Jaroslav Halak
Konstantin Korneyev
Phillipe Paquet
JT Wyman
Moves
-June 16, 2007 : To Chicago Blackhawks : Sergei Samsonov
To Montreal Canadiens : Jassen Cullimore and Tony Salmelainen
-Bought out both Jassen Cullimore and Tony Salmelainen
-Signed Roman Hamrlik
-Signed Bryan Smolinski
-Signed Tom Kostopoulous
-Signed Patrice Brisebois
-Put Garth Murray on waivers and loses him on reentry waivers
-Signed Brock Trotter
-To Washington: Cristobal Huet To Montreal: 2009 2nd Round Pick
-To Canadiens: Brett Engelhardt To Red Wings: Francis Lemieux
-Traded Cory Urqhart to Phoenix for Olivier Latendresse
Roster: (no order)
Forwards
Alex Kovalev
Tomas Plekanec
Saku Koivu
Andrei Kostitsyn
Christopher Higgins
Michael Ryder
Sergei Kostitsyn
Guillaume Latendresse
Bryan Smolinski
Maxim Lapierre
Mathieu Dandenault
Tom Kostopoulos
Kyle Chipchura
Mikhail Grabovski
Steve Begin
Defensemen
Mark Streit (both f/d)
Andrei Markov
Mike Komisarek
Roman Hamrlik
Ryan O'Byrne
Josh Gorges
Francis Bouillon
Patrice Brisebois
Goalies
Carey Price
Jaro Halak
Top Prospect
Ryan McDonagh, D
Max Pacioretty, LW
Ben Maxwell, C
David Fischer, D
P.K. Subban, D
Yannick Weber, D
Mathieu Carle, D
Matt D'Agostini, RW
Alexei Yemelin, D
Brock Trotter, C
Ryan White, C
James Wyman, RW
Pavel Valentenko, D
Konstantin Korneyev, D
Greg Stewart, RW
Probably missing a bit of information, but I'm pretty sure that's a decent overall summary of what happened to the Habs under Gainey. We rebuilt only missing the playoffs once and that only by a win. One thing is for sure though, if he makes a mistake, he usually fixes it if possible.
Why was Gainey given 4 years to build a contending team? He basically told us to give him 5 years and he'll give us a contender WHEN he signed in the first place.
Even though he was technically rebuilding, the team was competing for a playoff spot and was looking better and better for the future.
Yes, he traded Ribeiro for nothing, lost Hainsey and Beauchemin for nothing, and signed Samsonov. (I don't see signing Theodore as a mistake as he was good in 04 and Huet wasn't proven and he was injured. He HAD to sign him. There is no proof that trading Huet was a mistake. There is no proof he'd have broken out of his slump that he was on before he was traded from us. We don't know what will come of the 2nd round pick yet in the 09 draft that some say will be better than 03 ).
He also traded for Kovalev, (led the Habs in points in 2 of the 3 full season he's been with the Habs. Led the Habs in points in 2 of the 3 playoffs he's participated in with the Habs as well) and kept him even after his worst season of his career in 2006/2007. Traded an unhappy and underachieving/occasionally benched Rivet for 2 pieces that look to be important parts for the future. Pacioretty is arguably our best prospect not in the NHL and Gorges is cheap, young, and arguably our 4th best defenseman last season. Acquired Huet from the Kings in the first place. We developed him into the top 10-15 goalie former allstar goalie he is today. He brought us few good goalie seasons as we waited for Halak or Price to develop. Got rid of Samsonov's and Theodore's contracts. Signed Hamrlik at a time where it seemed no good free agent were willing to come here. Also made a lot of minor deals that would only help us.
Yeah I made this post in another thread, and yeah I'm only posting it again because it took me awhile to put it together and yeah I'll probably post this again because it took me awhile to put this together.
Don't forget that Gagné didn't play most of the season .
Their GM made an incredible job last summer , because he didn't touch to his youth like Leafs have made soo much time . They have a lot of young and very good players with them , so i beleive that they are going to be a competive team for a long time .
Dude...they barely made the playoffs...and by all accounts were fortunate to beat the Caps. And with us, even their crap players (which are many, especially on D and in goal), played as good as they've ever played....and IMO will ever play.
But hey, not to say I could be wrong....don't have a crystal ball...just my view on it I guess.
I think the vote was taken mainly in the Society For Stoic Men.
The Society for Inexpressive Men perhaps. Stoic? Not so much.
Stoicism, from what I recall, was a popular medieval philosophy of life that urged people to not only accept their unfortunate fates, but to actually embrace such destinies.
Gainey hasn't seemed inclined to accept misfortune or bad results.
Dude...they barely made the playoffs...and by all accounts were fortunate to beat the Caps. And with us, even their crap players (which are many, especially on D and in goal), played as good as they've ever played....and IMO will ever play.
But hey, not to say I could be wrong....don't have a crystal ball...just my view on it I guess.
He's made some pretty good moves and took advantage of other team's situations. The contracts he signed Timonen and Briere to may turn out to be horrible when their play regresses. But the fact is that he managed to take the worst team of 06/07, change their entire top 4 defensemen and goalie, add lots of younger talent, lose their arguably best player for the season and still manage to make the conference finals. I don't think anyone has ever accomplished such a short term feat. Albeit, he may or may not have cap issues in the not to distant future when the younger players contracts end, but at the moment he's looking good.
I don't get all the Holmgren praise around here... not that he did a bad job or anything, but lets not forget that all the trades he made (Biron aside) were 1. getting players/picks/prospects for Forsberg... and 2. trading some of theses "acquisitions" for the rights to other players (Timmonen for example)...
maybe Forsberg should receive the exec. of the year award or something...
?
