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The Sedins

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Old
05-26-2008, 10:35 PM
  #1
brawllover8
 
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The Sedins

Well Gillis said he thinks the sedins are not the players to build a franchise around, and that only means one thing,

time for a trade!,

how much would you be willing to give up for the sedins or just one?

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05-26-2008, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brawllover8 View Post
Well Gillis said he thinks the sedins are not the players to build a franchise around, and that only means one thing,

time for a trade!,

how much would you be willing to give up for the sedins or just one?
not sure he said that exactly
think he was keeping his options open with their deals up next summer
with one more year at $3.5M each for 70-pt players, I'd assume the value is high, but curious to see what others think....

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05-26-2008, 10:42 PM
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Peter Griffin
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The Canucks aren't really in a great position to be able to trade the Sedins. Even with them the Canucks need to add 3 top 6 forwards to their line-up, so if they are to move both for one player(Olli Jokinen was the rumour) they'd be in an even deeper hole. On top of that, both are one year away from UFA and although it likely wouldn't be too hard for any team to acquire them to get them to sign, it's still something that has to be considered.

Gillis has stated that he wants to employ a fast paced, aggressive, uptempo style and Gillis may not see them as good fits in that type of system, which is probably a pretty good assumption. I can see the Sedins fitting in very nicely on an Eastern Conference team where the play is more open and less aggressive.

I wonder if there are any teams out there in a position to offer up three top 6 forwards for the Sedins? Perhaps an option for the Canucks if they are looking to make a run at Hossa?


Last edited by Peter Griffin: 05-26-2008 at 10:54 PM.
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Old
05-26-2008, 11:27 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brawllover8 View Post
Well Gillis said he thinks the sedins are not the players to build a franchise around, and that only means one thing,

time for a trade!,

how much would you be willing to give up for the sedins or just one?
no he didn't

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Old
05-26-2008, 11:38 PM
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When the Canucks moved up to draft both of them, it seemed like a masterstroke, as their pre-draft success seemed contingent on their playing together. Now, if they're looking to trade them, it may have hamstrung them, as the Canucks likely need to trade them as a package and, as a result, may need to take a lowered return to do so.

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05-27-2008, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
not sure he said that exactly
think he was keeping his options open with their deals up next summer
with one more year at $3.5M each for 70-pt players, I'd assume the value is high, but curious to see what others think....

I believe you might want to check your facts.

$3.575 per yr.

Trading the Twins would have to result in a superstar calibre player coming back that could anchor the top line (ie: Top flight center or winger in top 10 scoring, with a proven track record of sustainability throughout their career) The targets are very limited.

Another thing to think about is their salary demands next year. If they both put up a year of 85-90 points (which is not to much more to expect from them with another 20 goal scoring winger, think about it....could a Demitra or Malone add another 10 points over 82 games to their totals? I think so... ) their demands are going to be much higher than we can pay. If you compare some proven scoring forwards with point totals in the 70-80pnts per year range you are looking at anywhere from 5.0mil-7.0mil per year.

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05-27-2008, 01:36 AM
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It's amazing what a down year or even a cold streak does to your value on HFBoards.

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05-27-2008, 03:28 PM
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It's amazing what a down year or even a cold streak does to your value on HFBoards.
They did have a downyear....but its not just their downyear that's bringing their values down.

Look at playoff record too.....and how they can't produce in pressure situations.

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05-27-2008, 03:40 PM
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They did have a downyear....but its not just their downyear that's bringing their values down.

Look at playoff record too.....and how they can't produce in pressure situations.
Good point, let's trade them. I'm pretty sure if Detroit fans could go back they would trade Datsyuk and Zetterberg when it was obvious how they couldn't produce in the playoffs.

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05-27-2008, 03:49 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
When the Canucks moved up to draft both of them, it seemed like a masterstroke, as their pre-draft success seemed contingent on their playing together. Now, if they're looking to trade them, it may have hamstrung them, as the Canucks likely need to trade them as a package and, as a result, may need to take a lowered return to do so.
I still think it was a master-stroke, as both of these guys have turned into legit 1st line players. Maybe not star players, but 70-80 point guys who are responsible defensively don't grow on trees.

What team has the room to tie up $11+M in these two guys going forward, and has the offensive depth to move signicant forwards back? I think there would be some potential in a Jokinen + something good deal going back. If not for the divisional thing I could see a Gaborik + something decent as well. Maybe to LA for Cammelleri + O'Sullivan? It's real tough to get equal value when you're moving such a substantial amount of production out the door.

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05-27-2008, 03:57 PM
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The problem is that they're thought of as 1st liners.

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05-27-2008, 04:14 PM
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The problem is that they're thought of as 1st liners.
I know that this has been totally beaten to death, but how can two guys who are have been consistent top 30 point getters among forwards? You would think that with 30 teams you would have 90 "first liners". Are you telling me that each NHL team only has 1 "first liner", or that some teams don't have any 1st liners?

2007/08: Henrik (26th), Daniel (28th)
2006/07: Daniel (19th), Henrik (25th)
2005/06: Henrik (38th), Daniel (44th)

Add in that they are well above average defensively, and they are 1st liners IMO. Granted that they might not be guys that "carry" their team, but not all 1st liners carry their respective teams either. IMO, not every 1st liner is a star player.

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05-27-2008, 04:22 PM
  #13
The Vengabus
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Originally Posted by Adityase View Post
The problem is that they're thought of as 1st liners.
This brilliant post by Indiana should be required reading for all discussion about the Sedins.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...6&postcount=83

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
You're severely underrating the Sedins there.

The Sedins have been given top line minutes for only two seasons.

In both seasons, they scored Top 30 out of 900 players league-wide.


D. Sedin
2007 - 84 pts (20th ranked scorer league-wide) (4th ranked left winger overall)
2008 - 74 pts (27th ranked scorer league-wide) (5th ranked left winger overall)


H. Sedin
2007 - 81 pts (26th ranked scorer league-wide) (13th ranked center overall) (4th in assists league-wide)
2008 - 76 pts (24th ranked scorer league-wide) (14th ranked center overall) (4th in assists league-wide)



Let's put it this way:

Out of ninety 1st liners, the Sedins outscored more than sixty of the league's top liners.

That's a lot of top players to outscore.

Yet you still consider them 2nd liners.

So we'll backtrack one more year to when the Sedins did get 2nd line duty:


D. Sedin
2006 - 71 pts (47th ranked scorer league-wide) (11th ranked left winger overall)


H. Sedin
2006 - 75 pts (41st ranked scorer league-wide) (21st ranked center overall) (13th in assists league-wide)



Out of ninety 1st liners, the Sedins outscored half of the league's top liners on a 2nd line playing 2nd line minutes.

Nevermind the other eighty-eight 2nd liners.

The Sedins were already competing with 1st line production as far back as three seasons ago.

When you get labeled a '2nd liner' after outscoring over half the NHL's top liners for three years: you're underrated.





No one scores everyday.

Let's compare Vancouver's #1 scorer to other #1's who made the 2nd Round:


NYR #1 scorer:
Jagr
In his last 27 games, held pointless in 12.


DAL #1 scorer:
Ribeiro
In his last 27 games, held pointless in 12.


MTL #1 scorer:
Kovalev
In his last 27 games, held pointless in 11.


VAN #1 scorer:
H. Sedin
In his last 27 games, held pointless in 11.



SJS #1 scorer:
Thornton
In his last 27 games, held pointless in 10.


COL #1 scorer:
Stastny
In his last 27 games, held pointless in 9.


PIT #1 scorer:
Malkin
In his last 27 games, held pointless in 9.


And that's just compared to contenders who made it past the 1st Round.

The non-playoff ones fare worse.





You'd be surprised how easily the Sedins can fit in with those teams:

● Detroit's #3 scoring forward is Cleary, a right wing (ranked 134th). Their top scoring left wing is Holmstrom with 40 pts (ranked 150th). Left winger D. Sedin's 74 pts (ranked 27th) would be an upgrade on that wing.

● Dallas' #3 scorer is B. Richards with 52 pts (57th). Either of the Sedins' 76/74 pts would be an improvement there.

● Philadelphia - With M. Richards & Briere (25th) & (28th) ranked just one spot below H. Sedin & D. Sedin (24th) & (27th) in scoring respectively, the Flyers don't need to tinker with their top line.

● Colorado - Each Sedin scored more points than anyone in Colorado. D. Sedin (27th) and H. Sedin (24th) can easily spot their current top three scorers: Stastny (36th), Brunette (65th), or Hejduk (84th). But in Colorado's defense, Sakic's injury was a huge blow to production.

● San Jose - After Thornton (5th), their #2 & #3 scoring forwards are Michalek (80th) and Marleau (111th). They could easily use the Sedins there.

● New York - Each Sedin outscored everyone in New York. Including Jagr (35th), Gomez (38th), Drury (68th), and Shanahan (118th). It's not impossible to see the Sedins on a top line with one of those.

● Montreal - Their #2 & #3 scoring forwards are Plekanec (41st) and Koivu (77th). It's not a stretch to imagine the Sedins anchoring a natural right wing like Kovalev (11th) there.





We're not talking about bottom feeders here either.





Sitting at 5th in league standings, the defending champions were one of the heavy favorites entering the playoffs.

Below is their top scorer's performance compared to the Sedins:


VAN top two scorers:
H. Sedin 76 pts (24th)
D. Sedin 74 pts (27th)
___________________ Combines for 150 pts


ANA top two scorers:
Getzlaf 82 pts (17th)
Perry 54 pts (83rd)
___________________ Combines for 136 pts





Considering the number of playoff contenders who could use the Sedins' production as shown above, it's no slight on the Sedins if they don't crack the 2nd lines of Pittsburgh & Detroit.

All it means is that those two teams are incredibly deep.

And that many other good top liners wouldn't crack their 2nd line.

However, we'll take a shot at it:

C - H. Sedin (24th)
L - D. Sedin (27th)


PIT
C - Malkin (2nd)
C - Crosby ((31st) got injured)
R - Hossa (44th)
R - Sykora (53rd)
L - Malone (99th)
C - Staal (254th)
R - Dupuis (262nd)


DET
C - Datsyuk (4th)
C - Zetterberg (6th)
R - Cleary (134th)
C - Hudler (137th)
L - Holmstrom (150th)
R - Samuelsson (156th)
R - Franzen (161st)


Listed are the top seven scorers for each club.

Only six are needed to form two lines.

D. Sedin could easily crack Detroit's 2nd line; while a 'maybe' for Pittsburgh.

Hell, D. Sedin has a case for Detroit's 1st line.





When you get labeled a '2nd liner' after outscoring over half the league's top liners for three years: you're underrated.

And if you listen to the many 12 yr olds whining for the Sedins to go for a bag of pucks: You know they're underrated.

Few overrate them in comparison.





A comparison with other top scorers shows that they disappear just as much as the Sedins.

The #1 and #2 scorers from playoff contenders are shutdown at around the same pace as both Sedins. (the Crosbys & the Ovechkins excluded)


NJD #1 scorer:
Parise
In his last 81 games, held pointless in 40.


NJD #2 scorer:
Elias
In his last 74 games, held pointless in 39.
____________________________________ Combines for 79


MTL #1 scorer:
Kovalev
In his last 82 games, held pointless in 30.


MTL #2 scorer:
Plekanec
In his last 82 games, held pointless in 39.
____________________________________ Combines for 69


NYR #1 scorer:
Jagr
In his last 82 games, held pointless in 37.


NYR #2 scorer:
Gomez
In his last 81 games, held pointless in 29.
____________________________________ Combines for 66


CGY #1 scorer:
Iginla
In his last 82 games, held pointless in 25.


CGY #2 scorer:
Huselius
In his last 81 games, held pointless in 41.
____________________________________ Combines for 66


SJS #1 scorer:
Thornton
In his last 82 games, held pointless in 27.


SJS #3 scorer:
Michalek
In his last 79 games, held pointless in 37.
____________________________________ Combines for 64


VAN #1 scorer:
H. Sedin
In his last 82 games, held pointless in 32.


VAN #2 scorer:
D. Sedin
In his last 82 games, held pointless in 31.
____________________________________ Combines for 63



MIN #1 scorer:
Gaborik
In his last 77 games, held pointless in 22.


MIN #2 scorer:
Bouchard
In his last 81 games, held pointless in 37.
____________________________________ Combines for 59


BOS #1 scorer:
Savard
In his last 74 games, held pointless in 21.


BOS #2 scorer:
Sturm
In his last 80 games, held pointless in 38.
____________________________________ Combines for 59


DAL #1 scorer:
Ribeiro
In his last 76 games, held pointless in 27.


DAL #2 scorer:
Morrow
In his last 82 games, held pointless in 29.
____________________________________ Combines for 56


ANA #1 scorer:
Getzlaf
In his last 77 games, held pointless in 23.


ANA #2 scorer:
Perry
In his last 70 games, held pointless in 33.
____________________________________ Combines for 56


PHI #1 scorer:
M. Richards
In his last 73 games, held pointless in 22.


PHI #2 scorer:
Briere
In his last 79 games, held pointless in 26.
____________________________________ Combines for 48


PIT #3 scorer:
Hossa
In his last 72 games, held pointless in 30.
____________________________________


As seen above: the Sedins are middle-of-the-pack.

They're held scoreless at around the same pace as many top scorers.

The difference is: when the Sedins were held off, no one picked up the slack.

So the team loses.

And we remember the Sedins as the cause of defeat.

In contrast, clubs with secondary scoring can still win games when their top scorers are invisible.

And as shown above: they're invisible more often than people tend to think.





What we need to get to the finals are:

More than two 1st liners. Plus secondary scoring.

● Trading two 1st liners for one, means we have to get two more 1st liners.

● With the Sedins, we require just one 1st liner.

If you assume we can get two extra 1st liners after trading the Sedins, that means we can get two extra 1st liners without trading the Sedins.

The former = three 1st liners.

The latter = four 1st liners.

That extra 1st liner would make a good anchor for secondary scoring.

But realistically, acquiring two point-per-game players wont be easy.

Which means, we may get only one PPG top liner this offseason.

If we have the Sedins, that one acquisition gives us a 3-man top line.

If we've already traded the Sedins for one player, that one acquisition ends up giving us:

Another 2-man line playing with plugs.





You sound like you don't believe both "2nd liners" can be re-signed for 3.5M.

There's a reason for that:

You've been underrating them.

Under-bidding at 3.5M, means you get sidelined by several clubs scrambling to offer more.





Points are a better measure of offensive contribution.

Unless you're saying Thornton's massive assists don't factor into a lot of San Jose's goals.





They're doing their job by producing.

And producing the points is what gets you to win games.

Who needs your "extra things" when they can already deliver without it.

What they need is for the rest of the team to chip in.





What happened to the goals resulting from their assists?

Are you saying Thornton's playmaking doesn't result in a lot of goals.

Because there's a reason why point totals matter.

You get very skewed results if you think the league's all about goals and no playmaking happens 'round here.

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Old
05-27-2008, 07:59 PM
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no he didn't
i guess you never heard his press conference.

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05-28-2008, 01:36 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by brawllover8 View Post
i guess you never heard his press conference.
i guess you never listened closely enough

if he said they weren't players to build around they'd be gone and this topic wouldn't exist

he said that he didn't know if they were players to build around

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05-28-2008, 01:50 AM
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IMO, the Sedins are worth building a team around. Their niche is cycling, All they need is an able body to shovel pucks into the net. When they're put with a player that outskills them they deflate. I.e. Naslund. Look what they've done with Carter. Heck, even Pyatt at times. What Van should do is take a stab at weinhandle (sp?) The sedins were electric with him in Europe. If Van can keep a neutral salary player that can produce with the sedins. Most 1st lines don't have 12mil Salary. i.e. Sedins and Naslund. Most teams cant afford that. If Van ever did obtain a star, I gaurantee he wouldn't be put with the sedins. Unless he was Rick Nash.

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05-28-2008, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brawllover8 View Post
Well Gillis said he thinks the sedins are not the players to build a franchise around, and that only means one thing,

time for a trade!,
Is there a link to that statement?

Didn't think so! But personally i think you don't win with the Sedins as your "go-to-guys" either, good players but not "winners"

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05-28-2008, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Iggy-4-50 View Post
Is there a link to that statement?

Didn't think so! But personally i think you don't win with the Sedins as your "go-to-guys" either, good players but not "winners"
As a Canucks fan I can tell you that Gillis did say something along those lines. Now I don't have a link either but there are more then enough Canuck fans that can back me up on this as well.

Basically what he said was that he doesn't believe the Sedins are players you can build around. He said that if you can build a 1A 1B type of top 6 then it can work but the Sedins aren't exactly players that can carry a team. He's not a huge fan of the style they play.

With that said IMO the Sedins are solid 1st line players and they're still in their prime so it's very realistic that with the right linemate they could be a line that carrys a team to a championship.

The Sedins put up solid numbers the last two seasons basically by themselves. Not only do they NOT have a legit top line winger but they also play on a team that doesn't have enough secondary scoring at all.

Just imagine what they could do if they had a legit top line winger and a little extra secondary scoring to help them out.

Basically what you've seen with the Sedins over the last two seasons has been them doing it all on their own while facing the other teams best defensive players.

The stragey to shut down the Canucks offence was simple over the last two seasons. If you shutdown the Sedins you've got a great chance to win. With all that pressure on the Sedins they were still able to put up solid numbers which IMO does make them top line players.

I do believe that if the Sedins had a legit top line player (for example Rick Nash) then you may see a season where they'd put up 90-100 points.

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05-28-2008, 09:05 AM
  #19
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Any deal that has these 2 involved boils down to if they will be split up. See as how they haven't ever been split up in their entire lives, I can't see them being too receptive to it now.

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05-28-2008, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Factorial View Post
This brilliant post by Indiana should be required reading for all discussion about the Sedins.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...6&postcount=83
I appreciate the repost. It is all very interesting and well researched. I guess what I "feel" (admittedly non-scientific) is that they're not guys who can make the team better by either dragging it over the finish line or making the players they play with better (with the exception of each other). Basically, I'm going on a hunch that may be outdated, but until the Canucks do something positive I'm not buying the hype (Luongo for iinstance is no longer the best young goalie in my mind any more).

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05-28-2008, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
I still think it was a master-stroke, as both of these guys have turned into legit 1st line players. Maybe not star players, but 70-80 point guys who are responsible defensively don't grow on trees.

What team has the room to tie up $11+M in these two guys going forward, and has the offensive depth to move signicant forwards back? I think there would be some potential in a Jokinen + something good deal going back. If not for the divisional thing I could see a Gaborik + something decent as well. Maybe to LA for Cammelleri + O'Sullivan? It's real tough to get equal value when you're moving such a substantial amount of production out the door.
I think I just pissed myself. That was a good joke.

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05-28-2008, 04:27 PM
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Good players and much like Hemsky - neither play on the PK and both get 40% of their points on the PP (36 + 29 PP points for the Sedins).

Are they first line players? Yes.
Are they elite two-way first liners like Iginla or Zetterberg? No.

Combined they should fetch a single great player, but they wouldn't be worth say O.Jokinen + Bouwmeester.

Maybe a trade like this:

Sedins

for

Carter
Hartnell (or Knuble + 3rd)
Umberger

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05-28-2008, 04:31 PM
  #23
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neither play on the PK
just a note, they were the Canucks' best PK duo two seasons ago. Since the Bertuzzi fiasco, though, they've been a #1 line and get rested during PKs.

If they played on a team with deeper scoring, I think they'd be great on the PK. Good positionally, great sticks, intercept tons of passes, and can hold the puck forever, killing tons of PK time.

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05-28-2008, 04:32 PM
  #24
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I think I just pissed myself. That was a good joke.
Gaborik's salary is about what the Sedin's make combined, he's a UFA the same time the Sedin's are, and he's been significantly outpointed by either brother over the last 3 years. The only thing he's got on the Sedin's is that he's flashy & explosive.

What am I missing? What about Gaborik, along with his huge salary and his injury issues that would put his value way beyond the Sedin's?

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05-28-2008, 04:55 PM
  #25
voxel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
just a note, they were the Canucks' best PK duo two seasons ago. Since the Bertuzzi fiasco, though, they've been a #1 line and get rested during PKs.

If they played on a team with deeper scoring, I think they'd be great on the PK. Good positionally, great sticks, intercept tons of passes, and can hold the puck forever, killing tons of PK time.
Yup, your are right... I double checked the 05-06 year and they played under 2mins of PK/game but that was their only year they played any significant time short handed.

Players like Datysuk + Zetterberg play on the PK and a ton at ES so why can't the Sedins?

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