HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Blake Wheeler rejects Coyotes offer

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-01-2008, 11:02 AM
  #51
NFITO
hockeyinsanity*****
 
NFITO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,857
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
the difference is, there used to be a lot more flexibility with contracts and offers. The original team can offer more money, but the difference is not monumental when you consider that both players will stand to make about the same in the AHL, and potentially a player could pick a team he feels he will get the most chance to make NHL money in the shortest time.

With the Cap and the lesser control over the player (knocking two years of rights ownership) and reduction for the time someone owned a players rights could lead to an increase in this type of action.

Look, I understand it realistically could have happened more in the past. But right now the setting is right to allow players to make this conclusion. The ball game also changes significantly when it is a high draft choice making the decision. Thelen's not even in the same category. For the team at that time, the compensatory pick was worth significantly more to them for a prospect that had his stock drop a lot since his draft day. Umberger's closer to the issue at hand here, but I wonder what the salary figures that were involved were. Wheeler was a reach, but a player of his ilk still has significant value to an organization. He isn't a throw in or a mid round pick, this is a top end prospect who commanded the max deal. I could see if a team offered him less cash, but to get offered the max and turn it down is what is frightening. I almost hope he doesn't to well so it doesn't turn into something others try. If top picks say forget it, I will make all the money I want wherever I want to play, that is the fear. If a mid rounder or a low pick doesn't want to play in one organization because of money or opportunity, that is NO issue but when its a top pick, teams need some certainty.

It might be hard for a Canadian team's fan to understand or comprehend the fear this could place in fans of expansion and other "less desirable" teams (though that might be right up the alley of many extremist anti-American NHL fans). You have teams that many of the players and prospects have grown up rooting for or have desirable markets for young players to play in. Some might want to be closer to home, some might have played in a certain region. But the fear that you could take a top 5 pick and then have him basically say in 4 years time that he has no desire to play for your franchise is scary for fans of most teams.
what exactly is the difference now with the CBA in this regard to what it has always been like?

There is no reduction in time a team holds a player's right, for players like Wheeler... that rule only applied to Euros - who a team held rights for, for 7 yrs after being drafted... for all NA players, like Wheeler, the same rule was in place - you had 3 yrs to sign them, or 4 in the case of college players, who you could sign after their college eligibility, after which point they either went back into draft or became UFAs, depending on their age. The same is in place now.

what other flexibility was there in the past in contract offers that made such a huge difference?

In situations like this, I always put the blame on the team for not locking up the player here... yes there was a risk that he could hit UFA status when they drafted him... maybe that's a reason why more and more teams are signing their prospects within a year or two of being drafted, rather than waiting till the last month to get a deal done before the player hits UFA status (or goes back into the draft). There has also always been problems with NCAA players in the past as well... such as the loophole which Comrie threatened to use to get a better deal in Edmonton - a NCCA player could play in the CHL for a year, and become UFAs... I believe this loophole has been addressed in the new CBA.

And in the end, there is compensation for teams losing such players... any 1st round pick that isn't signed, the team is given a compensatory pick in the 2nd round... sure it's not the same as signing your 1st round guy, but here's the balance overall - at least you get some decent asset back for losing a 1st that is progressing well, and you have the option of walking away from a 1st not progressing and getting a decent asset back in return.

basically though, if a drafted player is a valuable asset for a team, they need to sign him sooner rather than later... if they're going to wait till the last minute to see if the player is worth signing, then you risk losing the player altogether.... we've seen this situation many times in the past... drafted players are much more likely to sign with a team the sooner they get the offer - getting guaranteed $$ as 18 or 19 YOs... if you wait till they're 21-22, and they know they've been progressing well in their development, while seeing a much shorter window to getting that guaranteed contract from any other team, chances are you'll lose the prospect.

NFITO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2008, 11:45 AM
  #52
Willard
Kings All The Way
 
Willard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Just Off Highway 1
Posts: 2,508
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
If a drafted player is a valuable asset for a team, they need to sign him sooner rather than later... if they're going to wait till the last minute to see if the player is worth signing, then you risk losing the player altogether.... we've seen this situation many times in the past... drafted players are much more likely to sign with a team the sooner they get the offer - getting guaranteed $$ as 18 or 19 YOs... if you wait till they're 21-22, and they know they've been progressing well in their development, while seeing a much shorter window to getting that guaranteed contract from any other team, chances are you'll lose the prospect.
Every prospect situation is different and unique, though -- it's too easy to generalize like this. Some players need more development. A guy fresh out of high school, like Wheeler was when he was drafted, has a good chance of falling into the "longer term project" category.

Has Phoenix really made any wrong moves wrong moves with a guy who was talented but very green when they drafted him? Were the Coyotes truly lackadaisical about Wheeler, or did the Coyotes lack a sound strategy? It's hard to see any of those problems from where I'm sitting now, but maybe someone can show specifically where Phoenix was wrong to be this patient in facilitating the development of this prospect.

He said last month he was waiting for Phoenix to do the right thing -- then Phoenix does, they offer him the max, and THEN he turns it down? I don't see where he thinks this tactic will reflect well on his career and if I'm another GM, I'm hesitant about this guy now and start to think, maybe he will be a problem child and not worth committing my team's resources to.

I also agree with an earlier poster that Gretzky has a lot of pull around the league and it would not surprise me to see Wheeler get at least somewhat frozen out around the league, unless he's got an inside line on some other team that no one has yet reported.

Willard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2008, 12:44 PM
  #53
NFITO
hockeyinsanity*****
 
NFITO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,857
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willard View Post
Every prospect situation is different and unique, though -- it's too easy to generalize like this. Some players need more development. A guy fresh out of high school, like Wheeler was when he was drafted, has a good chance of falling into the "longer term project" category.

Has Phoenix really made any wrong moves wrong moves with a guy who was talented but very green when they drafted him? Were the Coyotes truly lackadaisical about Wheeler, or did the Coyotes lack a sound strategy? It's hard to see any of those problems from where I'm sitting now, but maybe someone can show specifically where Phoenix was wrong to be this patient in facilitating the development of this prospect.

He said last month he was waiting for Phoenix to do the right thing -- then Phoenix does, they offer him the max, and THEN he turns it down? I don't see where he thinks this tactic will reflect well on his career and if I'm another GM, I'm hesitant about this guy now and start to think, maybe he will be a problem child and not worth committing my team's resources to.

I also agree with an earlier poster that Gretzky has a lot of pull around the league and it would not surprise me to see Wheeler get at least somewhat frozen out around the league, unless he's got an inside line on some other team that no one has yet reported.
I can understand Phoenix's situation... he was a "green" prospect and had a lot of development to do... when they drafted him, it was still unclear if he'd ever be a NHL player, and even now there are no guarantees...

but that's the risk that Phoenix takes here... what I disagree with is that the team doesn't take some risk in waiting as long as possible to sign a prospect just to make sure they are as ready as can be... if Phoenix was so unsure if he'd make it, even a year ago, I can understand them not wanting to sign him then... but they should also understand that by waiting, and trying to get more certainty with your asset, there's more uncertainty as to whether he'll sign, since his options increase the closer he gets to UFA status.

I don't think that teams should hold all the power here... that they can draft any player and they're guaranteed to sign him if the player develops well, while having the rights to walk away if the player doesn't develop well... there should be risk taken by both sides here... and the longer that a club waits to sign a player, while his potential may become clearer, you're also taking more risk by taking more time...

IMO that's a completely fair way to negotiate in such a situation... if the club wants time to assess their asset before committing financially, then the asset should have the chance to sign with another team eventually if they can't come to terms with the team that drafted them over a certain period of time.

As far as the last point, I doubt that any team would not want to sign him because of Gretzky... he's a good prospect that can improve a lot of teams depth... if a team thinks he can help them, and he wants to sign there, I doubt that Gretzky has any influence on the matter.

NFITO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2008, 01:14 PM
  #54
hbk
Registered User
 
hbk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,645
vCash: 500
Phoenix has approached Wheeler in the past about signing. I believe that is a condition to retain his rights. Wheeler though was unable to sign a contract to maintain his scholarship (as according to NCAA rules).

Phoenix did everything they could here. This isn't a Phoenix management problem.

hbk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2008, 02:34 PM
  #55
Ian Altenbaugh
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Ian Altenbaugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 1,251
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Can Phoenix fans confirm that Wheeler was playing center in college and Maloney ecently said he wanted him playing wing for the Yotes?

Maybe the kid doesn't want to switch and sees the center depth in the Phoenix organization.
He was drafted as a center. He is listed now as winger. Often times forwards are centers at lower ranks and are later converted to winger to better compliment their skill set. Kind of the way most professional football players played LB, WR, or QB in highschool.

Ian Altenbaugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2008, 02:46 PM
  #56
Chimaera
same ol' Caps
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: La Plata, Maryland
Country: United States
Posts: 21,851
vCash: 600
So what happens when Hedman or some other top European prospect (or heck any prospect) gets drafted in the top 2 or 3, and says, thanks but no thanks, I'm not signing for your team for reason X?

Good luck with the 2nd round pick?

Is the NHL going to be baseball where kids threaten JuCo, Prep-School or whatever it is to avoid being picked by certain teams? Is that what you want?

It is not a good system and leaving teams who critically need a dynamic talent instead of a 2nd rounder only hurts the league. When you're selected by a team, it is a privilege to just be picked. Letting drafted top end prospects opt out of going places is a slippery slope

Chimaera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2008, 02:56 PM
  #57
Seachd
Registered User
 
Seachd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Fail
Posts: 13,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
So what happens when Hedman or some other top European prospect (or heck any prospect) gets drafted in the top 2 or 3, and says, thanks but no thanks, I'm not signing for your team for reason X?
Why would he do that? He'd set back his pro/North American/NHL career two years, go back into the draft, maybe get paid less, and still might not end up where he wants.

Seachd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2008, 04:24 PM
  #58
hbk
Registered User
 
hbk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,645
vCash: 500
What's interesting is we've strained off the subject as to what type of contract has Wheeler earned on basis of his 4 years of development?

hbk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:26 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.