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Glen Sather's views on Jagr and Avery

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Old
06-03-2008, 07:37 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by JRZ DVLS View Post
If i compare him to the Devs, is he worth more than a John Madden, or Langenbrunner, or if he wants 3-4 mil, Parise? I know, I know it is NJ, but probably a fair comparison.
when people use comparables, they only use the extreme cases. how much is Avery worth if you compare him to Gionta, Zubrus, or Mogilny?

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Old
06-03-2008, 11:49 PM
  #52
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Your the only one in this thread saying Avery didn't show up in the playoffs. When someone scores 6 points in 7 games, then ruptures his spleen in the first period of the 8th game and not only plays the final 2 periods with a ruptured spleen but records an assist as well, I consider that showing up.
Go back to the threads right after the Penguins eliminated the Rangers. You'll see very different responses. Just as Jagr was hailed as an all time great and we needed him back one more season Avery was harassed in several threads for not having his typical production. Everything is always topsy turvy with Rangers fans. One month everything is this and after the dust settles its that. I'm not imagining reading posts right after the Rangers were eliminated from the playoffs at the hands of Pittsburgh. I frequently read on here. And I'm sure if I wanted to take the time to dig up the posts to prove someone wrong I could but I don't feel like investing that time right now. You can choose to believe me or not on that one. I just think fans forget what was being said just last month and what is being said this month. It's very different. And my offer isn't so ludicrous compared to other posters as someone already mentioned $2.5 million as the cut off point. Some people don't think he deserves the $3 million+ contract. I totally respect everyones opinion here but like you said we don't always have to agree. I think with the money we have tied up signing Avery for a $3 million plus contract would be a huge detriment for the team. Tyutin's contract is expanding, we have Lundqvist, Drury, Gomez tied up in $23 million. We still haven't signed Jagr, we still need to find a QB defense man and a real physical defense man to add depth to our team. We still need to look into getting a solid scoring winger. We can't afford to luck Avery in to a long term $3 million + deal. Given the circumstances I don't think he is worth it. Like I said, look at players similar to him, Ruutu, Laraque, Brashear, none of them are earning that kind of money. I don't think its right to really classify him with Tucker just yet either because Tucker does what Avery does and has scored close to 30 goals doing it. Avery is not quite what Tucker is yet, maybe in a few years that will change, but Tucker is a better player. If he is getting paid $3 million, there is no reason to offer Avery any more than $2 million.

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06-04-2008, 12:36 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
We can't afford to luck Avery in to a long term $3 million + deal. Given the circumstances I don't think he is worth it. Like I said, look at players similar to him, Ruutu, Laraque, Brashear, none of them are earning that kind of money. I don't think its right to really classify him with Tucker just yet either because Tucker does what Avery does and has scored close to 30 goals doing it. Avery is not quite what Tucker is yet, maybe in a few years that will change, but Tucker is a better player. If he is getting paid $3 million, there is no reason to offer Avery any more than $2 million.
is this a serious post?

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06-04-2008, 12:50 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
is this a serious post?
Sadly it was

Avery should get 3 years $10 million $3.325 mpy cap hit.

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06-04-2008, 01:25 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
Sadly it was

Avery should get 3 years $10 million $3.325 mpy cap hit.
most fans could live with that but for some reason i dont think Sather could. I don't get why he is so apprehensive. Aside from the details between Avery and Sather, look at it from a pure financial POV

Cap is going up at least $5 million.
Malik is definitely gone. Thats -2.5
It sounds like Shanny is going to be gone. -2.5
Straka is most likely done. -3.3
Kaspar's salary is gone. -3.1

thats $17.4 million there. Sather can't swallow the fact Avery would take 3.325 of that? Maybe he will try to get rid of Backman whose salary goes up to 3.4 million this coming year to cut some dead weight. but there should be no reason for Sather to be worried about money flexibility.

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06-04-2008, 01:28 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by FutureGM97 View Post
most fans could live with that but for some reason i dont think Sather could. I don't get why he is so apprehensive. Aside from the details between Avery and Sather, look at it from a pure financial POV

Cap is going up at least $5 million.
Malik is definitely gone. Thats -2.5
It sounds like Shanny is going to be gone. -2.5
Straka is most likely done. -3.3
Kaspar's salary is gone. -3.1

thats $17.4 million there. Sather can't swallow the fact Avery would take 3.325 of that? Maybe he will try to get rid of Backman whose salary goes up to 3.4 million this coming year to cut some dead weight. but there should be no reason for Sather to be worried about money flexibility.
Kaspar was off the cap in Hartford, no?

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06-04-2008, 02:39 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
Kaspar was off the cap in Hartford, no?
Correct. And the new contracts for Tyutin and Girardi kick in next season. Plus, the other RFAs (Dawes to name one) who have to be re-signed too.

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06-04-2008, 02:40 AM
  #58
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First things first is figuring out Jagr--stays or not. The Rangers without Jagr have a problem that goes way beyond what happens with the Avery negotiations. Having no legit elite offensive threat--whether he's scoring enough goals or not he is the player every other team focuses on stopping.

As for overpriced players on the team--let's look at Drury who should be in the 4.5--5 at the most range.

The assertion by some that Avery bombed once again in the 2nd round vs. Pittsburgh I find a little ludicrous. He had a goal in the first game, an assist on an important goal in the third--a game almost entirely played with a lacerated spleen--after that he was out. I don't think I'd have any problem giving him 3.50--3.75 for preferrably 2 years but up to 3. However it happens since his arrival his play has made the Rangers a more competitive team. He works on other teams psyches--often is responisble for turning games into wars, helping raise the rest of the Rangers combat level. Not only do the Rangers tend to win games like that but the games win or lose are much more entertaining for the fans as well. Some comparisons--Malik made 2.5, Mara made 3, Prucha made 1.6, Backman 2.3, Straka 3.3, Shanahan whatever with his bonuses taking a bite out of next season. Avery made 1.9. There's no comparison about who had the worst contract. It was Avery by far.

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06-04-2008, 03:09 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
We can't afford to luck Avery in to a long term $3 million + deal. Given the circumstances I don't think he is worth it. Like I said, look at players similar to him, Ruutu, Laraque, Brashear, none of them are earning that kind of money.
not that this deserves a response but:

Avery had 33 points last season

Ruutu, Laraque and Brashear combined for 37 points. everyone of them played significantly more games

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06-04-2008, 09:59 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by FutureGM97 View Post
Sather can't swallow the fact Avery would take 3.325 of that? Maybe he will try to get rid of Backman whose salary goes up to 3.4 million this coming year to cut some dead weight. but there should be no reason for Sather to be worried about money flexibility.
Backman's cap hit remains the same.

Don't forget to factor in Lundqvist's new cap hit starting next season.

Most of all, on top of Avery and Jagr, you still have to resign or replace Straka, Shanny, Mara, Malik, Rozsival and Valiquette plus negotiate new deals for Dawes and Sjostrom. That's a LOT of core players to replace with less than half of the budget remaining. You overpay anyone and it only mean you're going to have to downgrade somewhere else on the roster.

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06-04-2008, 10:37 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Backman's cap hit remains the same.

Don't forget to factor in Lundqvist's new cap hit starting next season.

Most of all, on top of Avery and Jagr, you still have to resign or replace Straka, Shanny, Mara, Malik, Rozsival and Valiquette plus negotiate new deals for Dawes and Sjostrom. That's a LOT of core players to replace with less than half of the budget remaining. You overpay anyone and it only mean you're going to have to downgrade somewhere else on the roster.
look at tampa this why their goaltending was brutal since the bulin wall left

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06-04-2008, 10:39 AM
  #62
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I don't think Avery is worth more than 2.8 per.
I pretty much agree with this. But 2.8 is awfully close to 3 Mil. So if a deal was to hinge on $200, 000. I'd definitely say the guy is worth 3 mil and sign him to 3 mil. Seems silly to draw a line at 2.8.


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He's great for about 1/3rd of the games each season, the rest he's either injured or invisible.
I'd say Avery has been more often very good...to great.....3/4 of the games, since coming to the Rangers; than he has been invisable. Unfortunately injuries have occured.

Which is a much better average than guys like Straka, Jagr, Roszival and Malik. Who probably show up 50% of the games. Sometimes, worse.


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Then of course he likes to disappear in the 2nd round of the playoffs.
Avery had 1 Goal and 1 Assist .....for two points, in three games against the Penguins. Before rupturing his spleen. Two points in three games isn't shabby or invisable. Avery had 7 points in 8 Playoff games, while 10 other Rangers acheived less points, in 10 games.

Furthermore, he really didn't play badly. He was fairly consistent and strong in the defensive zone and neutral zone. As well as being the more physical Ranger on the ice.

In those three games Jagr, Straka, Avery and Gomez were the best forwards on the ice.

Yes, he disappeared in the Second Round Sabres series, last season. So did Jagr in the First Round series against the Devils, the year prior to that.

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06-04-2008, 10:45 AM
  #63
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The truth is, the Rangers played their best hockey when both Avery and Jagr were in the lineup, on the same line, with Dubinsky in the middle. Both players should be back for that reason.

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06-04-2008, 11:14 AM
  #64
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06-04-2008, 01:15 PM
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What is Sathers view on Rozsival?

Do you think Rozsival will ask for 5-6M a year?

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06-04-2008, 01:16 PM
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What is Sathers view on Rozsival?

Do you think Rozsival will ask for 5-6M a year?
id rather sign mara for cheaper and use the money for some gritty wingers like resigning avery and maybe matt cooke and a physical dman like orpik commodore salvadore

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06-04-2008, 01:19 PM
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id rather sign mara for cheaper and use the money for some gritty wingers like resigning avery and maybe matt cooke and a physical dman like orpik commodore salvadore
Who is going to run PP? Is Sanguinetti ready to step in?
Hutchinson?

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06-04-2008, 01:38 PM
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Who is going to run PP? Is Sanguinetti ready to step in?
Hutchinson?

-If Jagr is re-signed the PP will flow through him. Wheter or not that is a good idea is debateable.

- I don't see the Rangers giving Rozy a deal in the 5-6mill range, it is very possible some other team will though. His minutes will be difficult to replace.

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06-04-2008, 01:40 PM
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Who is going to run PP? Is Sanguinetti ready to step in?
Hutchinson?
Rozsival never ran the power play.

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06-04-2008, 01:42 PM
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Rozsival never ran the power play.
He did better on PP then Mara.

My questions: How much is he looking to make? Will Rangers sign him? Who is ready to step up if he walks?

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06-04-2008, 01:45 PM
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^^^^^ That's debatable. When Rozsival got into position to shoot the puck, he did well on the PP. Otherwise he was useless. He's not a puck mover and too often he doesn't shoot because he's too busy passing the puck back to Jagr.

Who knows how much he's looking to make, we're not his agent. There's speculation he might want a $5 mill+ contract. I think the Rangers would rather pay around $3-4 mill (realistically closer to four, but he was only making 2.3 last year and didn't improve on his numbers).

The fact that he can play so many minutes is hard to replace, but his production and defense really isn't...


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So did Jagr in the First Round series against the Devils, the year prior to that.
He completely wrecked his shoulder in the first game of that series. I think it's a little bit unfair to criticize him for that, like he played terribly on purpose or something.

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06-04-2008, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
He did better on PP then Mara.

My questions: How much is he looking to make? Will Rangers sign him? Who is ready to step up if he walks?
1. You'd have to ask him. People throw around the $5-6m number, but it's not based on anything that's come from him or his agent, just speculation.

2. Depends on how much he wants, I reckon.

3. Nobody currently signed.

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06-04-2008, 01:51 PM
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He did better on PP then Mara.

My questions: How much is he looking to make? Will Rangers sign him? Who is ready to step up if he walks?
Mara's role and time spent on the PP were not what they should have been. So many guys have come and gone from the Rangers blue line that COULD have been an asset with their big point shots, but just never got the chance to use them.

I don't know that Rozsival has ever publicly given an indication of what he hopes to earn, but it's fair to use any number 1 d-man that logs 25+ minutes and is a pending UFA as a precedent.

My guess is that Staal will begin to play 1/2 games next season on the first pairing. Personally, I'm less interested in "replacing" Rozsival, more interested in replacing him with someone known for a sound defensive game.

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06-04-2008, 01:54 PM
  #74
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Mara's role and time spent on the PP were not what they should have been. So many guys have come and gone from the Rangers blue line that COULD have been an asset with their big point shots, but just never got the chance to use them.

I don't know that Rozsival has ever publicly given an indication of what he hopes to earn, but it's fair to use any number 1 d-man that logs 25+ minutes and is a pending UFA as a precedent.

My guess is that Staal will begin to play 1/2 games next season on the first pairing. Personally, I'm less interested in "replacing" Rozsival, more interested in replacing him with someone known for a sound defensive game.
Agreed. But I will say if Rozsival is going to look for #1 D-Man money he better start looking for a new team as well. I don't feel he's a legit #1 defenseman.

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06-04-2008, 01:59 PM
  #75
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Mara's role and time spent on the PP were not what they should have been. So many guys have come and gone from the Rangers blue line that COULD have been an asset with their big point shots, but just never got the chance to use them.
Mara has a hard point shot. if he could hit the net maybe one out of ten, then we could start talking about a good point shot.

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