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Old
06-04-2008, 01:02 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Agreed. But I will say if Rozsival is going to look for #1 D-Man money he better start looking for a new team as well. I don't feel he's a legit #1 defenseman.
Totally agree. If we can sign rosi at a lower cost, its an option, but if he asks for 5-6mil (which I feel he isnt worth) then let him walk.

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06-04-2008, 01:14 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
My guess is that Staal will begin to play 1/2 games next season on the first pairing. Personally, I'm less interested in "replacing" Rozsival, more interested in replacing him with someone known for a sound defensive game.
Like who? There are not too many UFA d-man. Redden? Campbell? Probably will cost over 6M especially Campbell. Who else is out there who is really solid? Maybe Streit?

Possible Joni Pitkanen trade? Is it even real?

Some other RFA d-man?

What are the roomers?

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06-04-2008, 01:16 PM
  #78
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Mara has a hard point shot. if he could hit the net maybe one out of ten, then we could start talking about a good point shot.
Accurate or not, the guy has a career history of generating a lot of offense on the PP when he's the one running the play.

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06-04-2008, 01:26 PM
  #79
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Like who? There are not too many UFA d-man. Redden? Campbell? Probably will cost over 6M especially Campbell. Who else is out there who is really solid? Maybe Streit?

Possible Joni Pitkanen trade? Is it even real?

Some other RFA d-man?

What are the roomers?
Can't say I've given it a lot of thought, or that there are legit rumors floating around, but names like Liles, Orpik and Redden have been mentioned around here as the types of players that could really shore up the defensive shortcomings on the blueline.

Personally, I'm all for a trade for the right player. Not sure if Pitkanen is it, but some of the holes on the roster are going to have to be filled with players not being paid on a UFA scale.

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06-04-2008, 01:28 PM
  #80
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I pretty much agree with this. But 2.8 is awfully close to 3 Mil. So if a deal was to hinge on $200, 000. I'd definitely say the guy is worth 3 mil and sign him to 3 mil. Seems silly to draw a line at 2.8.
When you're as tight up against the cap as we are going to be, every little bit matters.

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I'd say Avery has been more often very good...to great.....3/4 of the games, since coming to the Rangers; than he has been invisable. Unfortunately injuries have occured.
Which is another reason I'm leery of paying too much for him. I'd like to see that the guy is capable of playing an entire season for us before we throw a fat check in his direction.

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Which is a much better average than guys like Straka, Jagr, Roszival and Malik. Who probably show up 50% of the games. Sometimes, worse.
True to an extent, but that's why 3 out of those 4 players are probably not going to be back next season.

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Avery had 1 Goal and 1 Assist .....for two points, in three games against the Penguins. Before rupturing his spleen. Two points in three games isn't shabby or invisable. Avery had 7 points in 8 Playoff games, while 10 other Rangers acheived less points, in 10 games.

Furthermore, he really didn't play badly. He was fairly consistent and strong in the defensive zone and neutral zone. As well as being the more physical Ranger on the ice.

In those three games Jagr, Straka, Avery and Gomez were the best forwards on the ice.

Yes, he disappeared in the Second Round Sabres series, last season. So did Jagr in the First Round series against the Devils, the year prior to that.
See this is where I start to have a problem with this argument. People are basing Avery's worth predominantly on his point production. Thats not the reason we have him. Sure, he contributes a decent point total, but his real purpose is to be physical and get under the opposing team's skin. He doesn't seem to do that when we desperately need him to.

Sure he had 2 points in 3 games, which is decent I guess, but the other parts of his game were clearly lacking. Why didn't he come out onto the ice and mix it up with Ruutu after he waved his stick in front of Rozsival's eye on the faceoff? When the Pens came back in game 1, why didn't he go out there and start throwing the body around? These are the things a 4 million dollar agitator does. I just don't see Avery as a game changer like that.

It is undeniable that our record is better when he is in the lineup, but I think there are other aspects of our game that could improve as well to make that kind of difference. I think a PP QB could dramatically improve our ability to score more goals on the man advantage, thus increasing our chance of winning. I think a hard hitting d-man could help intimidate the opposing offense, making it less likely for them to run up a few goals in quick succession. A sniper for Gomez could give us two legitimate scoring threats instead of surrounding our best center with an undersized rookie and an aging veteran.

I would really like to see Avery back next season, but if he's going to demand 3 or 4 years at 4 mil, I think I'll take my chances with a trade for Torres, Clowe or even bring up Byers or Bourret. Not because I don't think he's a valuable asset, I just don't think we can afford to overpay for the role he fills.

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06-04-2008, 01:46 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Can't say I've given it a lot of thought, or that there are legit rumors floating around, but names like Liles, Orpik and Redden have been mentioned around here as the types of players that could really shore up the defensive shortcomings on the blueline.

Personally, I'm all for a trade for the right player. Not sure if Pitkanen is it, but some of the holes on the roster are going to have to be filled with players not being paid on a UFA scale.
Not surprising. Those names are mentioned almost on every board PHI, NYI, NJD. Anyway, thanks

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06-04-2008, 02:03 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Agreed. But I will say if Rozsival is going to look for #1 D-Man money he better start looking for a new team as well. I don't feel he's a legit #1 defenseman.
He's a guy who can play #1 minutes, but doesn't give you #1 production (offensively or defensively).

I'm honestly not that panicked about replacing him if he is asking for too much money.

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06-04-2008, 02:37 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
He completely wrecked his shoulder in the first game of that series. I think it's a little bit unfair to criticize him for that, like he played terribly on purpose or something.

And equally unfair for Trxjw to claim Avery disappears in the Second Round, when he ruptured his spleen; in Game Three. See my point?

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06-04-2008, 03:02 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
See this is where I start to have a problem with this argument. People are basing Avery's worth predominantly on his point production. Thats not the reason we have him. Sure, he contributes a decent point total, but his real purpose is to be physical and get under the opposing team's skin. He doesn't seem to do that when we desperately need him to.

Sure he had 2 points in 3 games, which is decent I guess, but the other parts of his game were clearly lacking. Why didn't he come out onto the ice and mix it up with Ruutu after he waved his stick in front of Rozsival's eye on the faceoff? When the Pens came back in game 1, why didn't he go out there and start throwing the body around? These are the things a 4 million dollar agitator does. I just don't see Avery as a game changer like that.

It is undeniable that our record is better when he is in the lineup, but I think there are other aspects of our game that could improve as well to make that kind of difference. I think a PP QB could dramatically improve our ability to score more goals on the man advantage, thus increasing our chance of winning. I think a hard hitting d-man could help intimidate the opposing offense, making it less likely for them to run up a few goals in quick succession. A sniper for Gomez could give us two legitimate scoring threats instead of surrounding our best center with an undersized rookie and an aging veteran.

I would really like to see Avery back next season, but if he's going to demand 3 or 4 years at 4 mil, I think I'll take my chances with a trade for Torres, Clowe or even bring up Byers or Bourret. Not because I don't think he's a valuable asset, I just don't think we can afford to overpay for the role he fills.
Interesting comments.

It's funny, there were a horde of Rangers fans killing Avery for what he did in the Devils series. Secondly, the Penguins were a different opponent and the Refs were severely biased and repulsive in the way they called the series.

Maybe he didn't go after Ruutu because Renney pulled the reigns on him, in fear that Avery (and the Rangers in general) would fall victim to the very same type of tactics Avery used against the Devils; Just as Renney did against the Sabres in the Second Round of the previous season.

Maybe they felt they weren't going to get a fair shake in the Penguins series, from the Refs. Which pretty much was the case. So it could be Renney instructed him to play it safe.

I can tell you one thing, Avery threw the body consistently against the Penguins.

He certainly toned it down in that series, but he played his heart out, nonetheless.

Don't get me wrong, the Rangers lost because they failed to rise up to the challenge and because the Penguns were just s little bit better; four of the five games. The series was actually very close with each game being decided by really only one goal.

But the offciating truely handcuffed the Rangers in a lot ways.

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06-04-2008, 03:05 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
And equally unfair for Trxjw to claim Avery disappears in the Second Round, when he ruptured his spleen; in Game Three. See my point?
We did play a round 2 last year as well. I can see how that might go overlooked as it doesn't really support your side of things.

Not to mention, I clearly stated that my interpretation of 'disappeared' was related to his lack of physical presence in game one and two of the Pittsburgh series. The same can be applied to last years Buffalo series as well.

We're paying Avery to be an agitator. The offensive production is a byproduct of that.

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06-04-2008, 03:07 PM
  #86
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He's a guy who can play #1 minutes, but doesn't give you #1 production (offensively or defensively).
Right, because essentially he can't handle #1 minutes. Same with Malik.

Neither are capable of bringing their A-Game night in and night out, with that many minutes. They struggle, mightly.

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06-04-2008, 03:43 PM
  #87
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Accurate or not, the guy has a career history of generating a lot of offense on the PP when he's the one running the play.
well he's hit 40 points twice (and 25 another time). I didn't watch a lot of Phoenix when Mara put up his 40 point seasons, but if he was the one running the play, than his abilities, physical and mental, have deteriated a lot since that time.

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06-04-2008, 04:45 PM
  #88
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i still think orpik and redden fit the two needs of the rangers....

1) leadership on the back-end
2) physicality
3) pp qb
4) puck moving defenseman(first pairing)

those two would fill huge holes and together they would prolly be getting around 9 million....if the rangers were to trade backman, and let malik, mara and rozsival go that would cover it....and with the cap going up, i think they could go out and sign someone like smith for the third pairing and have potter, who is very cheap as the #7

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06-04-2008, 05:31 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i still think orpik and redden fit the two needs of the rangers....

1) leadership on the back-end
2) physicality
3) pp qb
4) puck moving defenseman(first pairing)

those two would fill huge holes and together they would prolly be getting around 9 million....if the rangers were to trade backman, and let malik, mara and rozsival go that would cover it....and with the cap going up, i think they could go out and sign someone like smith for the third pairing and have potter, who is very cheap as the #7

redden-staal
girardi-orpik
tyutin-smith

As much as I'd like to see it, I don't see Sather, or Renney for that matter, wanting to make that many changes to the D. I think they'll target a puck mover like Liles or Redden, and a physical presence like Orpik, Norstrom or Smith.

I do however, see the Tyutin/Girardi pairing being split up if they bring in two new d-men. Something like:

Staal - Liles/Redden
Tyutin - Mara
Girardi - Smith/Orpik/Backman

However, I think this is more likely:
Staal - Liles/Redden
Tyutin - Mara
Girardi - Backman
Struds/Potter

Whether the first pairing ends up having Liles or Redden highly depends on what kind of moves Slats is doing up front. He could pull a blockbuster and try to acquire a winger for Gomez AND a top-pairing d-man, but he could also resign a lot of players across the board and hope the change on D puts us over the top.

As much as Ryder is hated on around here, I see Slats taking a chance on him for maybe a cheap 2 year deal. Couple that with the probable resigning of Jagr and he'll have some space to work with in two years.

Avery - Dubi - Jagr
Ryder - Gomez - Dawes
Korpikoski - Drury - Callahan
Sjo - Betts - Orr/Prucha/Hollweg

Staal - Liles/Redden
Tyutin - Mara
Girardi - Backman

If Sather goes the one-signing route on D and can't work out a deal with Jagr, I could see him trying to make a play for a serious winger for Gomez. But I think the more likely scenario is we'll see a guy like Ryder, Huselius or Vrbata in blue next season.

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06-04-2008, 06:06 PM
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Everyone is making it seem as if we have already signed all of these players. Where you would like to see them and where Sather would can and probably are two totally different places. Orpik would be the perfect fit for the Rangers. Redden however is very pricey and is VERY similar in my opinion to Roszival. Signing the better Hossa, Orpik and either Jags, OR Avery would be great. If both Jagr and Avery get let go, then signing someone like Hossa would be crutcial. Gaborik also would be awesome to see at MSG. Minnesota has sold out every single game they have played in their franchise's young history. Gaborik would be fine with playing at MSG.

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06-04-2008, 06:15 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by newyorkrangers11 View Post
Everyone is making it seem as if we have already signed all of these players. Where you would like to see them and where Sather would can and probably are two totally different places. Orpik would be the perfect fit for the Rangers. Redden however is very pricey and is VERY similar in my opinion to Roszival. Signing the better Hossa, Orpik and either Jags, OR Avery would be great. If both Jagr and Avery get let go, then signing someone like Hossa would be crutcial. Gaborik also would be awesome to see at MSG. Minnesota has sold out every single game they have played in their franchise's young history. Gaborik would be fine with playing at MSG.
Redden is far, far beyond Roszival in every aspect of the game.

Signing Hossa would leave us in an absolutely horrible cap situation unless we could somehow dump salary.

Orpik is fine, but we still need a puck mover on the blue line. Orpik ain't it.

I like Gaborik in Blue, but you can't compare any media market to NY. They will absolutely rip you to pieces. Remember that A-Rod situation last season?

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06-04-2008, 06:30 PM
  #92
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On Mara--I look at him as a good 5-6 guy--not as a top 4. His offensive game has slipped a lot. He made 3 mil last year--a contract that came after a big offensive year. Even with inflation he's not worth 3 mil anymore--at least I wouldn't pay a 5-6 d-man that much.

The options beyond Avery and Jagr for this year are not particularly good IMO. Getting a Hossa means an $8 mil + per --for 4-5 years?--it's too much for what is a legit first liner but not a player who can carry a team. Knowing that a LeCavalier, a Nash, a Kovalchuk all playing for weak non-contending teams may become available in the next two seasons I wouldn't cut off those options for Marian Hossa who is not nearly the force that any of those three let alone Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin are. The Rangers cannot fill up all the holes with veteran free agent signings--those days are over. Figure on two--three--four rookies making the team every year. The new cap economics will make that a reality. IMO the Rangers would be much better off at forward re-signing Jagr and Avery for whatever it takes and then worry about bringing in wingers with more size and grit. I don't think the Rangers will have enough cap space left over then to sign more than one quality d-man--either an offensive type or a banger.

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06-04-2008, 07:08 PM
  #93
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On Mara--I look at him as a good 5-6 guy--not as a top 4. His offensive game has slipped a lot. He made 3 mil last year--a contract that came after a big offensive year. Even with inflation he's not worth 3 mil anymore--at least I wouldn't pay a 5-6 d-man that much.
That may be true, but he is capable of making a good breakout pass, and has a cannon of a shot as well. If you could resign him for 2 mil, he'd be a good option IMO. For one, he already knows the system Renney likes to play.

Quote:
The options beyond Avery and Jagr for this year are not particularly good IMO. Getting a Hossa means an $8 mil + per --for 4-5 years?--it's too much for what is a legit first liner but not a player who can carry a team. Knowing that a LeCavalier, a Nash, a Kovalchuk all playing for weak non-contending teams may become available in the next two seasons I wouldn't cut off those options for Marian Hossa who is not nearly the force that any of those three let alone Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin are. The Rangers cannot fill up all the holes with veteran free agent signings--those days are over. Figure on two--three--four rookies making the team every year. The new cap economics will make that a reality. IMO the Rangers would be much better off at forward re-signing Jagr and Avery for whatever it takes and then worry about bringing in wingers with more size and grit. I don't think the Rangers will have enough cap space left over then to sign more than one quality d-man--either an offensive type or a banger.
With the contracts that Gomez and Drury have, not to mention Hank's new contract, it's hard to project the Rangers being able to sign any of those guys. Staal is going to need a hefty raise when he his RFA status, and there are several other young players who could potentially be counting against the cap when their contracts are up.

I agree that its unlikely the Rangers will be able to fill all of their holes this summer, but at the same time, you have to imagine they're going to make a play to fill at least one or two of them. Resigning Jagr means they want to win a cup, and they want Jagr to be a part of it. It's clear to everyone that the team as it is now can't win a cup unless they're playing their absolute best hockey night after night. Therefor they're going to have to make at least one move to fill a hole. IMO, the two largest holes are: 1) Lack of secondary scoring, and 2) Lack of a PP QB d-man.

I'd imagine since both PP units already revolve around Gomez and Jagr along the half boards, that a puck moving d-man might not even be in the cards for this team until Jagr is gone. That timeline might correspond directly with Sanguinetti's development. A guy like Weber may be coveted by Sather because of his heavy point shot, strong physical game \ shutdown capability and his ability to log a lot of minutes. Locking Weber up for 5 years gives us a stellar shutdown pairing of Staal and Weber, with Sangs waiting in the wings to QB the PP. However, if he were to make that deal, I can't imagine Dubi isn't going the other way, and that automatically becomes an issue for Jagr.

I think it's safe to say that there is no perfect solution for this team during this offseason.

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06-04-2008, 08:09 PM
  #94
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Love what Avery brings to the Rangers but the Rangers shouldn't make a huge commitment to Sean.

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06-04-2008, 08:43 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
As much as I'd like to see it, I don't see Sather, or Renney for that matter, wanting to make that many changes to the D. I think they'll target a puck mover like Liles or Redden, and a physical presence like Orpik, Norstrom or Smith.

I do however, see the Tyutin/Girardi pairing being split up if they bring in two new d-men. Something like:

Staal - Liles/Redden
Tyutin - Mara
Girardi - Smith/Orpik/Backman

However, I think this is more likely:
Staal - Liles/Redden
Tyutin - Mara
Girardi - Backman
Struds/Potter

Whether the first pairing ends up having Liles or Redden highly depends on what kind of moves Slats is doing up front. He could pull a blockbuster and try to acquire a winger for Gomez AND a top-pairing d-man, but he could also resign a lot of players across the board and hope the change on D puts us over the top.

As much as Ryder is hated on around here, I see Slats taking a chance on him for maybe a cheap 2 year deal. Couple that with the probable resigning of Jagr and he'll have some space to work with in two years.

Avery - Dubi - Jagr
Ryder - Gomez - Dawes
Korpikoski - Drury - Callahan
Sjo - Betts - Orr/Prucha/Hollweg

Staal - Liles/Redden
Tyutin - Mara
Girardi - Backman

If Sather goes the one-signing route on D and can't work out a deal with Jagr, I could see him trying to make a play for a serious winger for Gomez. But I think the more likely scenario is we'll see a guy like Ryder, Huselius or Vrbata in blue next season.
i agree with what your saying...i am just sick of seeing all of the money go to the forwards.....i would rather let korpioski play on the second line next year or let callahan or sjostrom play there and throw that money at a guy like orpik

i still like

staal-redden
girardi-orpik
tyutin-smith

with backman's salary you could most likely sign smith....i dont think he will get more than 2.3....and mara, malik, roszival pay for more than redden....and then shanny's salary pays for orpik with the leftover from redden and you have your three.....

i know it isnt likely, i just think those three signings solve a lot of problems of the team as the forwards wouldnt have to go as far back due to the break-out passes....other teams forwards wouldnt be able to hold the puck near the goal or down low as long with the added muscle and grit....and the pp would get better all of which would cause more goals.....

plus the fact that the defense would get A LOT better than anything the rangers have had since before the lockout

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06-05-2008, 07:46 AM
  #96
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Right, because essentially he can't handle #1 minutes. Same with Malik.

Neither are capable of bringing their A-Game night in and night out, with that many minutes. They struggle, mightly.
No, he can physically play #1 minutes, his game just isn't #1 material. If he plays less minutes, I'm pretty sure the quality of his play will be pretty similar. That's just Rozsival...

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06-05-2008, 08:04 AM
  #97
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No, he can physically play #1 minutes, his game just isn't #1 material. If he plays less minutes, I'm pretty sure the quality of his play will be pretty similar. That's just Rozsival...
Frankly, that's why I'd like to see the Rangers pursue Wade Redden. Yeah, the talk is that his game has dropped somewhat. But, I think he just needs to get out of Ottawa. He can play top-pairing minutes, and would make a very good partner for Staal, who's ready to eat up more important minutes himself. Redden @ $6.5 million is better than Rozsival at $5.5-6 million.

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06-05-2008, 08:16 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i agree with what your saying...i am just sick of seeing all of the money go to the forwards.....i would rather let korpioski play on the second line next year or let callahan or sjostrom play there and throw that money at a guy like orpik

i still like

staal-redden
girardi-orpik
tyutin-smith

with backman's salary you could most likely sign smith....i dont think he will get more than 2.3....and mara, malik, roszival pay for more than redden....and then shanny's salary pays for orpik with the leftover from redden and you have your three.....

i know it isnt likely, i just think those three signings solve a lot of problems of the team as the forwards wouldnt have to go as far back due to the break-out passes....other teams forwards wouldnt be able to hold the puck near the goal or down low as long with the added muscle and grit....and the pp would get better all of which would cause more goals.....

plus the fact that the defense would get A LOT better than anything the rangers have had since before the lockout
I really don't see the Rangers signing three UFA D-men this off-season. I think it's more likely they'll pursue one top-tier D-man, (be it Redden, Campbell or re-signing Rozsival), and then either make a push for Orpik, or try to re-sign Mara.

Again, putting a roster together in the salary cap era is a delicate balance. Personally, I believe bringing back Jagr and Avery are priority 1 and 1A. A quality D-man to play next to Staal should be next on the list. Then you start looking at trades to perhaps bring in another top six forward. And, at least 2-3 players from Hartford, (Korpikoski, Byers and Potter are the best candiates at this point, IMO), need to be integrated into the lineup.

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06-05-2008, 08:35 AM
  #99
Fletch
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It is a delicate balance, jas...

which is why it's tough to say who they will target. If they go top-heavy on the forward side, I can see a scenario where they re-sign Rozsival and go after a guy for under $1MM.

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06-05-2008, 09:28 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Well, the Rangers record with and without Avery can also be explained just by virtue of having a good player in the lineup versus having that player sit out. He certainly helps the team, but I don't think there's anything mystical about it. He's a good hockey player, and he helps the team a lot when he plays well. But he's not irreplaceable and he's not worth whatever he wants just to keep him. If he walks, the Rangers will find a replacement and move on.

As for comparing him and Malone, Malone generally has better numbers and is increasing his stock by playing well through the entirety of the playoffs. That's going to pump his stock up more than it's worth
Sure he is a good player, but so too is Straka. However, do you think that the record with and without Straka would be as stark as with or without Avery? Nobody is irreplaceable, however I think that some players are much tougher to replace than others. The Rangers are still looking for the next Beuk.

As for Malone, as I have posted in another thread, in Avery's 76 games with the Rangers, his numbers have been similar to Malone's from this past year. Also, Avery scored put up solid numbers in this past playoffs. I just do not see the how Malone can be considered worty of a 2nd line salary, but Avery cannot be.

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