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Old
06-05-2008, 11:20 AM
  #26
poeman
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Malik > Offense

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Old
06-05-2008, 11:21 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i agree on staal...he was very good, however looking around at most teams they are deeper and have better top-end defenseman then the rangers do...i have said it before, i think getting a puck mover on the first pairing will make a HUGE difference in not only the defense but also the offense as the forwards can break sooner to go on offense.....also, i think they need to get a solid 2nd or 3rd pairing defenseman that can hit and clear the crease as opposing players were allowed to set-up shop in front of the goal last year and that hurt hank's stats and the teams record
Most teams are deeper? I can't say that.

The Rangers made it to the second round with two rookies playing top 2 pairing minutes.

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06-05-2008, 11:23 AM
  #28
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Looking back at the two best teams of the last 15 years. Detroit and Devils - most cups.

Lets see - they each have a star defenseman captain - who sets the tone for the team.

The point is, having a good defense, that doesn't mean that those defensive players don't contribute offensively also.

Look at the giants, so many points scored on returned fumbles etc...

A stay at home D man is much more likely to shoot from the point then make some attempt at a half assed pass through the slot. The rangers don't have this mentality.

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06-05-2008, 11:24 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
I think you are confusing team defense with defensemen.

TEAM defense is what wins.

When all 5 skaters on the ice play as a unit.

Sure, it helps to have a guy to knock someone into oblivion when they cut into the scoring lanes.

However, none of that matters if you can't put the puck in the net.

The Rangers were one of the best defensive teams in the league this year. 4th GAA.

However, the Rangers were one of the worst offensive teams. 25th GFA.

Detroit was at the top of the league in BOTH. 3rd GFA. 1st GAA. That is why they won.
What do stats during the regular season matter when your in the playoffs? Simply put, our defense was mediocre in the playoffs, and aside from maybe Staal, I didn't really see any of our defensemen elevate their game. Many times the forwards didn't come back to backcheck either, and that cost us. Not to mention the numerous turn overs that results from negligence, inability to pass and/or just plain laziness.

You can play great team defense all you want, but you'll still need the work horses that will continuosly shutdown the best forwards on the other team. That said, Lidstrom and Rafalski are in a different planet when you compare them to what was our first defensive pairing. You don't necessarily needs guys like those two to win, but it helps exponentially.

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06-05-2008, 11:26 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
Looking back at the two best teams of the last 15 years. Detroit and Devils - most cups.

Lets see - they each have a star defenseman captain - who sets the tone for the team.
Come on. That's really oversimplifying it. We could all go the rest of our lives and not see two defensemen like Lidstrom or Stevens again.

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06-05-2008, 12:07 PM
  #31
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Didn't the Wings...

win their previous cups having a centerman as their captain and not the defenseman? And Lidstrom's great, don't get me wrong, but I think the Detroit forwards really shined in these playoffs. You can say that without Lidstrom the Wings don't win the Cup, but you can also say the same about Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Further, I'd argue that the stay-at-home defenseman sends the puck in deep and doesn't throw the puck on net. But yes, a good one isn't sending risky passes through the middle.

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06-05-2008, 12:08 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdEye View Post
What do stats during the regular season matter when your in the playoffs? Simply put, our defense was mediocre in the playoffs, and aside from maybe Staal, I didn't really see any of our defensemen elevate their game. Many times the forwards didn't come back to backcheck either, and that cost us. Not to mention the numerous turn overs that results from negligence, inability to pass and/or just plain laziness.

You can play great team defense all you want, but you'll still need the work horses that will continuosly shutdown the best forwards on the other team. That said, Lidstrom and Rafalski are in a different planet when you compare them to what was our first defensive pairing. You don't necessarily needs guys like those two to win, but it helps exponentially.
You understand that we shut down the Devils.

And then scored 3 less goals then the Penguins in the second round, and that wasn't because our offense was great, that was because for the most part we contained them to give our selves a chance to win. HOWEVER, we COULD NOT SCORE and take advantage of all the chances we had.

The stats in the regular season translate to the playoffs. How? Simply by the playoffs revealing your teams weaknesses.

The Rangers weakness was their inability to score.

They contained the Penguins majority of the time, and when time and time again the Rangers couldn't seal the deal on all of their opportunities they had defensive breakdowns. That is what happens when you don't take advantage, you press and press and press until you crack.

Say what you want, but TEAM DEFENSE was not the Rangers problem this year. It was OFFENSE.

Vezina finalist goaltender. Top 5 team in GAA.

BOTTOM 6 in GFA.

That is the bottom line.

And that will be their down fall next year as well. Bringing back Jagr will assuredly mean they do not get an elite scoring threat because they won't be able to afford one.


And the playoff stat showing the Rangers in the top 5 GFA in the playoffs is distorted, we scored a few meaningless goals against the Devils. Empty netters and the 4-1 win in game one.


However, the GAA are not distorted, because the games against the Penguins were lower scoring then that of the Devils series. Take away the empty net goals and ALL of the games against the Penguins were one goal win games. Aside from the 3-0 shutout win at home that would have been a 2 goal game.

The Penguins series also revealed how distorted the Devils series was with the amount of goals we scored in that series. We scored those goals because we dominated the Devils in the neutral zone and contained the puck in their zone. They were simply not a good team.


Again, the Rangers team defense was GREAT. Their lack of the ability to score the big goals caused them to collapse.


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Old
06-05-2008, 12:16 PM
  #33
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Pikku...

the number isn't really distorted - the Rangers averaged 3.80 goals for against the Devils and won and averaged 2.40 against the Pens and lost. The defense really didn't help, but the offense wasn't all that great either.

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06-05-2008, 12:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
the number isn't really distorted - the Rangers averaged 3.80 goals for against the Devils and won and averaged 2.40 against the Pens and lost. The defense really didn't help, but the offense wasn't all that great either.
The Rangers played a superior offensive team (Penguins) in the second round.

The Rangers contained them for the most part. Again, most of the games were one goal games if you take away the cheap empty net goals.

If the Rangers had the offensive wherewithal to get the puck in the net when the games were tied, then they could have won that series.

The Rangers lost because they could not score when they had to. You can only hold off a team playing sound defensively for so long until you crack. You need the offensive support to make it work.

What do you people think? We are going to win the Cup by winning every game 1-0? 2-1? Sorry, not in this era, maybe in the late 90's, but not now.

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06-05-2008, 02:23 PM
  #35
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The Ranger's positive defensive Stats are weakened by inconsistency.

But just look, Detroit shut down the same PowerPlay that sent us to the golf course.

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06-05-2008, 02:48 PM
  #36
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The Pens' PP...

was 5 for 19 in the last four games, including two for five last night in the loss...

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06-05-2008, 06:33 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
you cannot win a game if you don't score. A great defensive team can still lose because they don't score. The Red Wings did have the best goals for average in the playoffs. In the regular season, they were third. It's a great mix.

But I think it's also semantics. If you score and don't give up points, you win. A great defense needs to lead to very good to great offense to still win the Cup. In essence, you need a balance of good defense and good offense. In hockey, you need a good system whereby the puck moves crisply and the transition game is effective.
I got 3 words for ya: New Jersey Devils.

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06-05-2008, 06:48 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SpookyMulder View Post
I got 3 words for ya: New Jersey Devils.
New Jersey Devils... in the late 90's.

Completely different league now, you CAN NOT hope to win a Cup by trying to win games 1-0, 2-1 every night. No chance in hell.

If you can't score, you won't win.

Team defense is not the Rangers problem. Scoring goals is the problem.

The defense can be upgraded with relatively no problem.

There are, however, too many holes to fill up front.

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Old
06-05-2008, 08:12 PM
  #39
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When the Devils last won...

a Stanley Cup, their offense was third in per game scoring in those playoffs.

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06-06-2008, 03:38 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
I think this point is forgotten in the modern age of sports. This year's major championships

Giants Win
Redwings Win

Giants are built around defense
Redwings - #1 in the NHL in D this year

Take the Yankees as a good example. Tons of offense no pitching = 500 team when they were picked to win the division.

If you have good consistent defense, the pieces always seem to fall into place.
The Ducks saw a dramatic decline in their offense this year, and the result was a first round KO. You need both.

What makes the Red Wing defense so good is their ability to create offense in the other team's end, leading to more power plays and less time spent in their own zone. If a team was just built on defense there'd be no consequences for attacking them. With Detroit, you have to be careful because they can create offense the other way.

Take the Blue Jays as an opposing example. Statistically they have one of the best pitching staffs in the major leagues. Tons of defense no offense = .500 team. It works both ways.

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Old
06-06-2008, 03:52 PM
  #41
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Offense is just as important as defense in the new nhl.

2006 Carolina Hurricanes
Offense Ranked: 3rd in nhl
Defense Ranked: 18th in nhl

2007 Anaheim Ducks
Offense Ranked: 6th in nhl
Defense Ranked: 7th in nhl

2008 Detroit Red Wings
Offense Ranked: 2nd in nhl
Defense Ranked: 1st in nhl

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