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Jay Bouwmeester!

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Old
06-06-2008, 09:40 PM
  #51
Beezer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varius View Post
Only if Niedermayer retires and contract negoatiations with Perry aren't going well, how's this:

Corey Perry
Francois Beauchemin
Edm's 1st

for

Jay Bouwmeester
Michael Caruso

fair value ??
I think it's fair value because I know JM would love to get a pick in the 1st round for this years draft as we currently don't have one(Traded away). But I see this deal having a better chance if a little more is added both ways.

Would you still think it is fair value if Florida adds Peltonen and Anaheim adds Parros?

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06-06-2008, 09:46 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
I am glad JM has said he won't trade Jay-bo. It looks like JM is going to focus everything on resigning him if he hasn't already. Jay-bo hopefully does want to sign with us and gets a deal soon. This thread was only done to find out his value incase that wasn't the case.

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06-06-2008, 11:31 PM
  #53
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Michalek, Wishart, Carle, forward prospect for JBOU.

But I wouldn't do it if Campbell was signed. I recognize Bouwmeester is way better than Campbell, but that would be 13.5 million plus for a top pairing.

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06-07-2008, 02:46 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Beezer View Post
Good point, but Burns also doesn't play as many minutes as Jay-bo. Also, Jay-bo is on the ice everytime the oponents top forward is, so it is kind of hard for him to get into his offense when he is always thinking defense first.
Only partially true.

JayBo has more PP minutes(extra 30) than Burns, but only has 14 PP points (24 ES points) vs. 19 PP for Burns (23 ES points). The Wild also have a slightly worse PP %.

At ES they are a wash - but yes JayBo plays tougher minutes although his +/- is pretty shoddy on a Panthers with similar ES numbers to the Wild.

Ignoring stats, I re-watched a few Panthers games (via Center Ice) and the WHC - is there an injury? His play is pretty lackluster.

I don't see JayBo's upside as I believe he's hit is ceiling - i.e no major points improvement in the last three years. He's very good and will get some significant players or picks in a trade due to the lack of two-way first pairing D-men, but he's not elite IMO.

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06-07-2008, 02:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SharkyMcWoo View Post
Absolutely no thanks.

Vlasic continues to get no love from anyone outside San Jose. 160+ regular season games and 24 playoff outings in the last 2 years, a de facto Sharks top pairing Dman and he's recently turned the gargantuan age of... twenty-one. Pickles and Marleau is a ridiculous proposal as decent as Bouwmeester is.
I like Vlasic, but anytime you can acquire a decent two-way first pairing D-man, you do it. i.e Sharks should have acquired Pronger when the opportunity arose.

Campbell is nice, but his defense is not as well regarded.

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06-07-2008, 03:21 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SharkyMcWoo View Post
Absolutely no thanks.

Vlasic continues to get no love from anyone outside San Jose. 160+ regular season games and 24 playoff outings in the last 2 years, a de facto Sharks top pairing Dman and he's recently turned the gargantuan age of... twenty-one. Pickles and Marleau is a ridiculous proposal as decent as Bouwmeester is.
Vlasic is an excellent defensive d-man, JBOU is a franchise d-man at 25 years old. He is at least as good as Vlasic defensively, faster, 4 inches taller, more physical, better at clearing the crease, and put up 40 points in a defense system that has two legit first liners, and a guy who is a legit second. He is a top d-man in the league this year and will be top5-7 for the next 6 IMO. I doubt Vlasic will ever have a top ten year. Jbou is everything we could ask for on the back line.

I am not sure if I would do that trade (I think trading your teams captain is generally a bad idea, especially when the team is contending), but it is so far from ridiculous. Also, Bouw isn't decent he is elite, and their is only one player better at his position that also happens to be younger, Dion Phaneuf. Of the other 6 that are IMO in front of him several (Niedermayer, Lidstrom, Zubov) are nearing retirement, and I think two (Pronger and Chara) will be behind Bouw in the next 3-5 years.
He is arguably as good as Markov (who is IMO the league's 7th best) right now.

Who is going to pass him? Maybe Burns, Weber, Keith, and Enstrom for guys in the nhl, and several years down the line, Erik Johnson, Doughty, Alzner, Hedman and other prospects may have a chance, but I think it will be at least seven years before any of these guys catch Bouw.

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Old
06-07-2008, 07:59 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oandb18 View Post
To PHI:
Jay Bouwmeester

To FLA:
James vanRiemsdyk
Denis Gauthier
Oskars Bartulis
1st 08
2nd 09
If salary cap goes up to 65 sure. Otherwise how are the Flyers going to fit J-Bo under current salary cap.

I think PHI offer should start with Gagne or Hartnell (I do not think Florida has any interest in Hartnell when we are talking about someone like J-Bo), Gagne has concussion issues so Florida may nix that trade too.

So in reality Carter plus d-sive prospect (that FLyers do not really have with exception of Marshall, Florida would want Parent but Flyers can not trade him) and maybe plus 1st round pick?

Idealy I would start my offer with: Gagne, Umberger and 1st

In the end we have to ask our selfs why would Florida trade J-Bo: They have franchise goalie, franchise d-man and #1 center and pretty good RW. All signed to very reasonable long term deal. Unless J-Bo asks for some crazy contract I do not think Florida will move him, I know I wouldn't move him.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 06-07-2008 at 08:13 AM.
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Old
06-07-2008, 08:32 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
JayBo has more PP minutes(extra 30) than Burns, but only has 14 PP points (24 ES points) vs. 19 PP for Burns (23 ES points). The Wild also have a slightly worse PP %.
Jay-bo played alot of PP on the second unit instead of the 1st for the first part of the season because Murphy was playing the 1st. That's why maybe he didn't score so many points on the PP. Not sure about Burns. Does he play on the 1st unit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
At ES they are a wash - but yes JayBo plays tougher minutes although his +/- is pretty shoddy on a Panthers with similar ES numbers to the Wild.
He was basically out on the ice just about everytime the oppositions best forward was. Until the schedules change, I believe the East has more elite forwards for Jay-bo to play against then the west for Burns to. The east have Crosby, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Lecavalier, Alfredson, Jagr, Briere, Staal, Vanek, Kovalev, Sundin & Parise. And in secondary scoring they also have players like Heatley, Spezza, Hossa, Drury, Malkin, St. Loius, etc.) The west also has a lot of good elite forwards like Zetterburg, Gaborik, Nash, Iginla, Kopitar, Thornton & Sakic, but IMO the east has more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
Ignoring stats, I re-watched a few Panthers games (via Center Ice) and the WHC - is there an injury? His play is pretty lackluster.
Alot of us thought his play towards the end of the season was tailing off. He is much better than that. Most of us attribute that play as him being warn down from so many minutes and being asked to take on alot of the load due to all of our injuries(I think only the Islanders beat us in man games lost due to injuries, not sure?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
I don't see JayBo's upside as I believe he's hit is ceiling - i.e no major points improvement in the last three years. He's very good and will get some significant players or picks in a trade due to the lack of two-way first pairing D-men, but he's not elite IMO.
No, Jay-bo has not hit his ceiling yet!!! His development has really been slowed becuase of being brought up so soon. He wasn't allowed to develop in the minors due to the Panthers pressing needs at defense at the time. He was asked to play top-2 line defensive pairing minutes at 18 years old.


Last edited by Beezer: 06-07-2008 at 08:46 AM.
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Old
06-07-2008, 08:43 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
Only partially true.

JayBo has more PP minutes(extra 30) than Burns, but only has 14 PP points (24 ES points) vs. 19 PP for Burns (23 ES points). The Wild also have a slightly worse PP %.

At ES they are a wash - but yes JayBo plays tougher minutes although his +/- is pretty shoddy on a Panthers with similar ES numbers to the Wild.

Ignoring stats, I re-watched a few Panthers games (via Center Ice) and the WHC - is there an injury? His play is pretty lackluster.

I don't see JayBo's upside as I believe he's hit is ceiling - i.e no major points improvement in the last three years. He's very good and will get some significant players or picks in a trade due to the lack of two-way first pairing D-men, but he's not elite IMO.
Is that how players are compared, judged, and ridiculed in this league now, by the stats? Or is that all you have to go by? There is a lot more to Bouwmeester's game to come, and if you would watch him over the years, or even over last season, you would see his game continue to develop. A "few" games doesnt cut it. Bouw hasnt hit his ceiling yet. That will be when he is a multiple Norris trophy finalist. Lots of people want to judge him off of his numbers, but I guarantee you that if he was playing in a "traditional hockey market," I wouldnt have to once again defend someone against stats. I think he is the top young Dman in this league, as Ive seen others think as well, a top 10 Dman overall, and in a trade, his return would be great IMO.

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06-07-2008, 09:34 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
Is that how players are compared, judged, and ridiculed in this league now, by the stats? Or is that all you have to go by? There is a lot more to Bouwmeester's game to come, and if you would watch him over the years, or even over last season, you would see his game continue to develop. A "few" games doesnt cut it. Bouw hasnt hit his ceiling yet. That will be when he is a multiple Norris trophy finalist. Lots of people want to judge him off of his numbers, but I guarantee you that if he was playing in a "traditional hockey market," I wouldnt have to once again defend someone against stats. I think he is the top young Dman in this league, as Ive seen others think as well, a top 10 Dman overall, and in a trade, his return would be great IMO.
I ragged on Phaneuf last year(06-07) for not being as good defensively (something hard to measure using stats) as his reputation says he was because he'd choose big hits over smart defensive plays but he drastically improved in past season(07-08) and has continued putting up more points against tougher opposition.

I think Bouwmeester would be both exposed and love in a "traditional hockey market" as his development has hit a speed bump (much like Pitkanen) and I don't see the Pronger/Lidstrom level defensive skill AT ALL.

I see him as the second tier behind the likes of Phaneuf, Burns, Weber who continue to zip by at 160mph on the young defensemen highway. BTW At no point did I say his trade value is low (see all post above).

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06-07-2008, 09:40 AM
  #61
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Martin has ruined the Panthers. He and Keenan didn't get near enough for Luongo and should have ponied up to keep him when they had the chance. They cannot make the same mistake with Bouwmeester. I think it's probably too late already. They are a bad team and Bouwmeester can see around the league that there are strong teams with money to spend

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06-07-2008, 10:07 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM View Post
Martin has ruined the Panthers. He and Keenan didn't get near enough for Luongo and should have ponied up to keep him when they had the chance. They cannot make the same mistake with Bouwmeester. I think it's probably too late already. They are a bad team and Bouwmeester can see around the league that there are strong teams with money to spend
Keenan ruined the Panthers not Martin. Martin is still trying to fix the problems that Keenan left behind and IMO has done a masterful job. He has signed alot of our younger players long term(and hopefully will do the same with Jay-bo) and has added alot of top prospects to the organization which we lacked when he took over as GM. He has added players like Matthias, Frolik, Repik, Etc. JM did not trade Luongo, keenan did.

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06-07-2008, 10:28 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
I ragged on Phaneuf last year(06-07) for not being as good defensively (something hard to measure using stats) as his reputation says he was because he'd choose big hits over smart defensive plays but he drastically improved in past season(07-08) and has continued putting up more points against tougher opposition.

I think Bouwmeester would be both exposed and love in a "traditional hockey market" as his development has hit a speed bump (much like Pitkanen) and I don't see the Pronger/Lidstrom level defensive skill AT ALL.

I see him as the second tier behind the likes of Phaneuf, Burns, Weber who continue to zip by at 160mph on the young defensemen highway. BTW At no point did I say his trade value is low (see all post above).
While I do think Dion might be a bit better than Bouwmeester at this point, I would put Bouw on par with any other young Dman in this league, including Burns, Weber, etc. Watching him play here, he is superb in the defensive zone and defending against odd-man rushes. I do think his defensive skill is top notch. But because he doesnt put up the numbers on a team not as skilled as some others in the league, he gets underrated, which I think is ridiculous. Quite honestly, I dont see many Dmen coming into his situation and putting up many more points or playing better defense than he has.

And I wasnt saying you were undervaluing him, just giving my opinion. I would much rather see him signed for the next 10 years than see him traded.

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06-07-2008, 10:29 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM View Post
Martin has ruined the Panthers. He and Keenan didn't get near enough for Luongo and should have ponied up to keep him when they had the chance. They cannot make the same mistake with Bouwmeester. I think it's probably too late already. They are a bad team and Bouwmeester can see around the league that there are strong teams with money to spend
Another comment from someone who has no clue whats going on in the organization. Cause Edmonton is such a great team huh.

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06-07-2008, 10:40 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezer View Post
Keenan ruined the Panthers not Martin. Martin is still trying to fix the problems that Keenan left behind and IMO has done a masterful job. He has signed a lot of our younger players long term(and hopefully will do the same with Jay-bo) and has added a lot of top prospects to the organization which we lacked when he took over as GM. He has added players like Matthias, Frolik, Repik, Etc. JM did not trade Luongo, keenan did.
It may be an over statement to suggest that Jm has done a "masterful" job with the Panthers following Keenan's departure, but, on balance, he has done a good job as GM. Jacque has brought stability and seems willing to build toward the future as opposed to trying for quick fixes. The team certainly hasn't been burdened with expensive, long term contracts given to veterans. To the contrary, most of our veteran contracts (Stumpel, McClean,Zednick, Dvorak, Peltonen,Kilger) come off the books at the end of the 2008-09 season.

I would be very pleased if JM resigns Olez and J-Bo to long term deals.

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06-08-2008, 12:52 PM
  #66
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JayBo

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