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05-25-2004, 05:22 PM
  #1
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Trading w/Keenan&Fla?

Keenan is apparently (haven't heard the official announcement) the new GM for Fla. We all know how he feels about certain young players. He seems to hate Weiss and Huselius. We all know he likes gritty veterans, so...

Weight or Tkachuk to Fla for Weiss? What combination of players/picks, etc. could we offer GM Keenan that would appeal to him in xchange for the kids he doesn't want? I'd love to get Weiss who I think is a top 6 NHL forward in a couple of years. Huselius, less so.

Thoughts?

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05-25-2004, 05:24 PM
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http://www.canada.com/national/natio...b-1afc915fae2b

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05-25-2004, 05:25 PM
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Weight for Weiss. Done.

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05-25-2004, 05:29 PM
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If the Blues trade Weight for Weiss we're giving up on next year (unless we sign a UFA center) as Weiss still isn't ready to be a top 2 center in the NHL, IMO. So, we'd have to pretty much completely re-stock. Which means dumping Tkachuk too, if anyone will take him.
Although there is something to be said for the idea of being able to trade Weight or Tkachuk and finding a suitable replacement via a UFA signing. We'd get that asset in the Weight trade (Weiss in this instance) and we could sign a guy like Stumpel or Nylander... and have a 'future' and a present as well.
What will Pleau do? I'm afraid we'll see a conservative approach to the team this offseason and that concerns me.

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05-25-2004, 06:14 PM
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1. This team won't be competing next year.
2. You don't just dump players because you won't be competing next year.

That philosophy is exactly why the Floridas of the league have stayed at the bottom of the league.

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05-25-2004, 06:27 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
1. This team won't be competing next year.
2. You don't just dump players because you won't be competing next year.

That philosophy is exactly why the Floridas of the league have stayed at the bottom of the league.
If you are not competing, you should be rebuilding. If you're doing nothing, then *that* is why teams like the Isle's have stayed bad to mediocre for years. Fla is poised to be very good if their GM doesn't blow their young nucleus.

So either compete or rebuild. What, exactly, is the middle ground you seem to be suggesting the Blues are taking? Just showing up?

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05-25-2004, 06:34 PM
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It's quite simple actually. When you've got the nucleus in place that the Blues have, you don't completely rebuild.

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05-25-2004, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
It's quite simple actually. When you've got the nucleus in place that the Blues have, you don't completely rebuild.
But our nucleus is special. It's overpaid and underperforming. Especially in the playoffs, which it was supposedly designed for.

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05-25-2004, 08:05 PM
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I wish none of you really think that Florida can afford the contract of a guy like Weight? Gimme a break

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05-25-2004, 08:13 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Taupy
I wish none of you really think that Florida can afford the contract of a guy like Weight? Gimme a break
That's for the quality contribution to the Blues board.

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05-25-2004, 08:14 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Plager05
But our nucleus is special. It's overpaid and underperforming. Especially in the playoffs, which it was supposedly designed for.
You're right... trade Jackman, Pronger, Backman... trade 'em all.

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05-26-2004, 01:07 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
You're right... trade Jackman, Pronger, Backman... trade 'em all.

I don't think that's what he was implying.

The Blues nuclues includes 3 players...

Pronger, Jackman, Backman. You could maybe add Cajanek to that list, he's the 2nd line center that you need. I think McClemment is the 3rd line center we're looking for. I'm not sure if Dougie is the 1st that we've been looking for. But I don't believe we've got one in our system as of yet.

So of the NHL players I think that Pronger, Jackman, Backman, Cajanek, and Divis/Sanford are the one's who shouldn't be going anywhere, and this team should be built AROUND them, as opposed to seeing what happens and if it looks like we're short, look for the best available player. WE NEED TO GET PLAYERS FOR THIS SYSTEM, not try and form a system around "the best players available at their respectable times".

This is what I hope to see in the future...

Forwards

Sejna Weight ******
***** Cajanek *****
***** McClemment *****

Dmen
Pronger - *****
Jackman - *****
Backman - *****

Goaltenders
Sanford
Divis

***** -denotes a young cheap free agent or a prospect in the system, such as Shkotov, Zakarov(sp), Belle, Byrne, etc.

I tried to keep most prospects out of the lineup (as you can see by the numerous "*" marks) 4th line can also be filled by *****.

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05-26-2004, 03:06 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuSa_1
I don't think that's what he was implying.

The Blues nuclues includes 3 players...

Pronger, Jackman, Backman. You could maybe add Cajanek to that list, he's the 2nd line center that you need. I think McClemment is the 3rd line center we're looking for. I'm not sure if Dougie is the 1st that we've been looking for. But I don't believe we've got one in our system as of yet.

So of the NHL players I think that Pronger, Jackman, Backman, Cajanek, and Divis/Sanford are the one's who shouldn't be going anywhere, and this team should be built AROUND them, as opposed to seeing what happens and if it looks like we're short, look for the best available player. WE NEED TO GET PLAYERS FOR THIS SYSTEM, not try and form a system around "the best players available at their respectable times".

This is what I hope to see in the future...

Forwards

Sejna Weight ******
***** Cajanek *****
***** McClemment *****

Dmen
Pronger - *****
Jackman - *****
Backman - *****

Goaltenders
Sanford
Divis

***** -denotes a young cheap free agent or a prospect in the system, such as Shkotov, Zakarov(sp), Belle, Byrne, etc.

I tried to keep most prospects out of the lineup (as you can see by the numerous "*" marks) 4th line can also be filled by *****.
I like your approach to building the team. I think signing Sillinger could give Blues solid players at centre on all lines.

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05-26-2004, 09:21 AM
  #14
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by the time hockey resumes in a year and a half how old will Mike Sillinger be? I doubt he'll ever really be an effective player again, when play resumes. Just as good a chance he'd retire, IMO, or start playing in Europe during the break and retire there after a couple of years.
Either way pencilling in guys like Drake and Sillinger to the lineup for "next season" is probably premature.

And 3 players does not a "nucleus" make. If you have 3 players that are your nucleus then whether you know it or not, you're rebuilding. If, on the other hand, you view the team as having Weight, Tkachuk, Pronger, Demitra, Jackman, Backman and Salvador as your nucleus, which I suspect Pleau does, then you add pieces to that core and build around them, even though I think Pleau will let Demitra walk. If you have a strong nucleus of a group of 6 or so players who are truly world class, then you've got a strong group to build around. If players like Weight and Tkachuk and Demitra (our 3 top forwards) are NOT part of the nucleus then you rebuild, or more accurately you're rebuilding whether you're aware of it or not.

Again, big, big offseason for Mr. Pleau.

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05-26-2004, 10:44 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuSa_1
Sejna Weight ******
***** Cajanek *****
***** McClemment *****

Dmen
Pronger - *****
Jackman - *****
Backman - *****

Goaltenders
Sanford
Divis

What has Weight done to be considered part of the nucleus of this team?

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05-26-2004, 04:52 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
What has Weight done to be considered part of the nucleus of this team?
As I said in that post, the NHL part of our nucleus is the 3 dmen and Cajanek, and the duo of Divis/Sanford. I DID NOT include Weight... however I believe he's gonna be sticking around.

I believe that one of Tkachuk or Demitra will be gone. I got a feeling that Pleau wants both gone.

guitar, I never said I didn't think we should rebuild . IF we were to rebuild, there are only 4 skaters (that are NHL regulars) we should build around.

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05-27-2004, 11:10 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaraholic
by the time hockey resumes in a year and a half how old will Mike Sillinger be? I doubt he'll ever really be an effective player again, when play resumes. Just as good a chance he'd retire, IMO, or start playing in Europe during the break and retire there after a couple of years.
Either way pencilling in guys like Drake and Sillinger to the lineup for "next season" is probably premature.
On the other hand, who do we have in the system that we could realistically plug into any of those spots? Neither Sillinger nor Drake will score 20 goals (heck, 15 from either might be a hard push), but they'll be servicable guys who would fill their roles on the 3rd line and not be disappointments. Besides....if the Blues struggle and we get closer to the trade deadline, those 2 guys will have trade value to someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaraholic
And 3 players does not a "nucleus" make. If you have 3 players that are your nucleus then whether you know it or not, you're rebuilding. If, on the other hand, you view the team as having Weight, Tkachuk, Pronger, Demitra, Jackman, Backman and Salvador as your nucleus, which I suspect Pleau does, then you add pieces to that core and build around them, even though I think Pleau will let Demitra walk. If you have a strong nucleus of a group of 6 or so players who are truly world class, then you've got a strong group to build around. If players like Weight and Tkachuk and Demitra (our 3 top forwards) are NOT part of the nucleus then you rebuild, or more accurately you're rebuilding whether you're aware of it or not.

Again, big, big offseason for Mr. Pleau.
Personal comment: we need to be rebuilding. Plain and simple. The question is whether the organ-I-zation is ready to admit it. The guys who were supposed to be the heart and soul of this team at forward (Tkachuk, Weight, Demitra) disappointed most of last season. Of the 3, the only one I might consider keeping is Weight....and that's so we can get max value for him at the '05 trade deadline. If our supposedly best players can't (or won't) step it up when it's time to lay it on the line, we don't need them - let's find someone else who will.

Yeah....25 straight years of making the playoffs is nice....but I'm ready to take the next step forward. Unfortunately, by standing pat and trying to push forward, we'll be sliding backwards. Better to cut losses now and struggle for a year or two so we're in a *much* better position long-term. (Think: Boston Bruins, 1980s and early-mid 1990s. Lots of good teams, no really great ones...not even the '90 Finalists)

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05-27-2004, 02:02 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues
On the other hand, who do we have in the system that we could realistically plug into any of those spots? Neither Sillinger nor Drake will score 20 goals (heck, 15 from either might be a hard push), but they'll be servicable guys who would fill their roles on the 3rd line and not be disappointments. Besides....if the Blues struggle and we get closer to the trade deadline, those 2 guys will have trade value to someone.

Blake Evans could(and probably will) play on the fourth line to replace Danton. Valeev will also be competeing for that spot. I think it is very premature to put McClement in as the third line center right now(especially if we aren't going into a full-out rebuild(which(by Pleau's recent comments) it appears we won't)). There was talk of moving RJ up a line(which I'm not totally sold on, he's a good agitator with excellent wheels but doesn't have the hands to be more than a utility forward) leaving the fourth line without a center(unless Evans steps in). IMO the bottom 2 lines are set if we can get Sillinger and Drake under contract, The Third line will be Drake, Sillinger and Bogunieki(which I think is a good third unit) and the fourth will be RJ, Rycroft and Low. We could probably even write Bogi off and replace him with Rycroft and give Evans or Valeev a shot on the fourth line. Sejna MIGHT be ready to play on the second line and Glumac (assuming we sign him to an NHL contract) could be an injury reserve call-up. The guy I'm concerned with is Pohl. He has the offensive tools to play a top two line role but I don't know if he's ready enough to make Weight expendable. IMO Sanford would be better off with another year in Worcester. He had a lot of injuries this year and probably hurt his developement a little. He might be ready to play a backup role but I don't think we should rush him.
To recap: Evans, Valeev, Sejna, Glumac and maybe Pohl should be ready to step into a NHL role next year.


Quote:
Personal comment: we need to be rebuilding. Plain and simple. The question is whether the organ-I-zation is ready to admit it. The guys who were supposed to be the heart and soul of this team at forward (Tkachuk, Weight, Demitra) disappointed most of last season. Of the 3, the only one I might consider keeping is Weight....and that's so we can get max value for him at the '05 trade deadline. If our supposedly best players can't (or won't) step it up when it's time to lay it on the line, we don't need them - let's find someone else who will.

Yeah....25 straight years of making the playoffs is nice....but I'm ready to take the next step forward. Unfortunately, by standing pat and trying to push forward, we'll be sliding backwards. Better to cut losses now and struggle for a year or two so we're in a *much* better position long-term. (Think: Boston Bruins, 1980s and early-mid 1990s. Lots of good teams, no really great ones...not even the '90 Finalists
Again I ask, why do we have to stink it up to rebuild? We do not need Lottery picks to draft good players. In fact, most lottery picks seem to go the bust route and not play a big role in the NHL. All we need to do is hold on to our 1st and 2nd round picks(and try to add a few(regardless of how high) through Trade Deadline deals) and build up our talent pool slowly while still keeping a veteran core in place. We do not need to go the Florida route and dump all our vets. That will only hurt us in the long term.

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05-28-2004, 02:49 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by kimzey59
Again I ask, why do we have to stink it up to rebuild? We do not need Lottery picks to draft good players. In fact, most lottery picks seem to go the bust route and not play a big role in the NHL. All we need to do is hold on to our 1st and 2nd round picks(and try to add a few(regardless of how high) through Trade Deadline deals) and build up our talent pool slowly while still keeping a veteran core in place. We do not need to go the Florida route and dump all our vets. That will only hurt us in the long term.
I'm not saying go for the gutter. If you draft smart, your lottery picks *won't* be busts. But...to suggest that this team as it currently stands is capable of suddenly lighting it up in the '05 playoffs ignores the reality that, after telling everyone they wanted to be judged on their '03 playoff performance this Blues team blew a 3-1 series lead vs. Vancouver, drifted aimlessly through the middle half of last season, and showed little desire to want to compete in a quiet 5-game loss to San Jose this year. If that's the best this team has to offer, then rebuilding isn't something that is just one of several options this team should consider when looking forward to try and get better. It's the only logical conclusion that can be drawn...because this team simply has neither the heart nor the desire to want to compete at playoff time - and to me that is inexcusable.

If it means putting kids in who'll at least compete night in and night out and stinking it up....fine. I want players who'll compete in at least 70 of the 82 regular season games, not players who want to coast on autopilot until they feel like playing.

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05-28-2004, 03:28 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues
I'm not saying go for the gutter. If you draft smart, your lottery picks *won't* be busts. But...to suggest that this team as it currently stands is capable of suddenly lighting it up in the '05 playoffs ignores the reality that, after telling everyone they wanted to be judged on their '03 playoff performance this Blues team blew a 3-1 series lead vs. Vancouver, drifted aimlessly through the middle half of last season, and showed little desire to want to compete in a quiet 5-game loss to San Jose this year. If that's the best this team has to offer, then rebuilding isn't something that is just one of several options this team should consider when looking forward to try and get better. It's the only logical conclusion that can be drawn...because this team simply has neither the heart nor the desire to want to compete at playoff time - and to me that is inexcusable.

If it means putting kids in who'll at least compete night in and night out and stinking it up....fine. I want players who'll compete in at least 70 of the 82 regular season games, not players who want to coast on autopilot until they feel like playing.

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05-28-2004, 08:50 PM
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If Keenan was willing to trade Niklas Hagman, what would the Blues need to offer for him?

I've always liked Hagman; he has some grit and is defensively responsible. He also matched his career high in goals last season (10), while playing in 75 games (a career low for games oplayed in a season). A pair of game-winners, and ice time increased by over a minute per game from last season.

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